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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #5522
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I wasn't a mother until my first child was born. I was just pregnant.


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    #5523
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    horseburger wrote: »
    No I did not, but thanks anyway.

    If you think he was saying you were in favour of the No vote in the 2015 referendum, then ya, you did.


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    #5524
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Some wouldn’t believe the Gardai are involved over the illegal removal of retain the 8th posters.

    https://twitter.com/giftedtim/status/985981154024189953?s=21

    Say the Garda would be very interested in this too.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10160261450765608&id=576200607

    What's your thoughts on that Robert


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    #5525
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    horseburger wrote: »
    Well then why don't you post videos and articles from organisations advocating a yes vote and a no vote and suggest a discussion about the points they are making.

    You could, yourself, just as easily highlight particular arguments made during debates and examine and scrutinize the points made.

    Here's one for example.

    How does Ruth Coppinger justify - or even get away with stating to Eamon O'Cuiv in the Dáil on 7th March 2017, that a pregnant woman isn't a mother till the baby is born?

    Is there any pregnant woman who wouldn't be completely insulted by that comment considering the care and nuture they provide during the pregnancy to ensure the development of the baby?

    Her comment got damn all coverage or criticism in the way that it would if a male politician like Ronan Mullen or Danny Healy Rae had said it.

    Why is that?

    Why didn't Broadsheet or Newsworthy tweet it and write articles transcribing her comments, like they have done with other public representatives?

    A pregnant woman does not become a mother merely through pregnancy, to become a mother a woman must give birth.
    Its a quite simple fact really.


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    #5526
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    If you think he was saying you were in favour of the No vote in the 2015 referendum, then ya, you did.

    He said I wasn't fooling anyone. What do you suppose he meant by that other than insinuate I was one of the people who hopped onto boards to post during the marriage referendum and voted no?

    He stated this "Throughout the SSM marriage campaign, boards was visited by many, many posters who were not against same-sex marriage and had no problems with the gays, sure one of their friends owns a pink shirt, but sadly, they had to vote No because the yes campaign was so gay and offensive and in their face all the time."

    What else do you think he was insinuating?


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    #5527
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    baylah17 wrote: »
    A pregnant woman does not become a mother merely through pregnancy, to become a mother a woman must give birth.
    Its a quite simple fact really.

    Christ above.

    Do you seriously believe that if Ronan Mullen or Danny Healy Rae had said it that they would not have been accused of disrespect and sexism and devaluing women?


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    #5528
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    horseburger wrote: »
    Christ above.

    Do you seriously believe that if Ronan Mullen or Danny Healy Rae had said it that they would not have been accused of disrespect and sexism and devaluing women?

    No. The constitution calls every pregnant person a mother. I didn't call myself a mother until my child was born. Pregnancy doesn't make you a mother any more than being a hospital porter makes you a nurse.


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    #5529
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    horseburger wrote: »
    Christ above.

    Do you seriously believe that if Ronan Mullen or Danny Healy Rae had said it that they would not have been accused of disrespect and sexism and devaluing women?

    ??????????

    None of the women I know considered themselves a mother until their first child was born. Zero. Zip.


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    #5530
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    lazygal wrote: »
    No. The constitution calls every pregnant person a mother. I didn't call myself a mother until my child was born. Pregnancy doesn't make you a mother any more than being a hospital porter makes you a nurse.

    Well not everyone agrees with you

    https://community.babycenter.com/post/a27596905/if_youre_pregnant_are_you_a_mom_poll

    A short item on the page above:

    "This Mother's Day I wished everyone on my Facebook who is a mother a Happy Mother's Day. This included mothers-to-be. Well, DH (dear husband) didn't acknowlege me at all today. I'm 38 weeks pregnant. His mother asked him what he was doing for me today and he said: "nothing. she's not a mother yet."

    "That kind of hurt me. I mean, I am not minimizing the amount of work it is to be a mother when the baby/child is here. But growing this baby is a lot of work too!"


    Is a pregnant woman a mother and should she be acknowledged on Mother's Day?

    Is a pregnant woman a mother and should she be acknowledged on Mother's Day?


    Yes she is and yes she should be.
    359


    Technically yes, she's a mother. But she shouldn't expect anything for Mother's Day.
    112

    She's not a mother and shouldn't be acknowledged on Mother's Day.
    68

    Total Votes: 539 Please login in to cast your vote


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    #5531
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    horseburger wrote: »
    He said I wasn't fooling anyone. What do you suppose he meant by that other than insinuate I was one of the people who hopped onto boards to post during the marriage referendum and voted no?

    He stated this "Throughout the SSM marriage campaign, boards was visited by many, many posters who were not against same-sex marriage and had no problems with the gays, sure one of their friends owns a pink shirt, but sadly, they had to vote No because the yes campaign was so gay and offensive and in their face all the time."

    What else do you think he was insinuating?

    He was saying that you're a person that is pro life who is pretending to be open minded on the topic while posting pro life material. And people did the exact same during the marriage referendum. It's parallels rather than saying you opposed marriage referendum.


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    #5532
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,017 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    horseburger wrote: »
    Well not everyone agrees with you

    https://community.babycenter.com/post/a27596905/if_youre_pregnant_are_you_a_mom_poll

    Is a pregnant woman a mother and should she be acknowledged on Mother's Day?

    Is a pregnant woman a mother and should she be acknowledged on Mother's Day?
    Yes she is and yes she should be.
    359

    Technically yes, she's a mother. But she shouldn't expect anything for Mother's Day.
    112

    She's not a mother and shouldn't be acknowledged on Mother's Day.
    68

    Total Votes: 539 Please login in to cast your vote
    Wow, a poll of 500 people.
    On an American website.
    That's representative of 2018 Ireland ;)


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    #5533
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    horseburger wrote: »
    He said I wasn't fooling anyone. What do you suppose he meant by that other than insinuate I was one of the people who hopped onto boards to post during the marriage referendum and voted no?

    He stated this "Throughout the SSM marriage campaign, boards was visited by many, many posters who were not against same-sex marriage and had no problems with the gays, sure one of their friends owns a pink shirt, but sadly, they had to vote No because the yes campaign was so gay and offensive and in their face all the time."

    What else do you think he was insinuating?

    It is abundantly clear from the rest of his post that he is saying you are engaging in similar behaviour, not that you voted one way or the other:
    Those people were always going to vote No, they just wanted to shift the blame for their intolerance to the other side.

    Likewise here you are posting absolute walls of prolife talking points and videos while pretending that you are on the fence and now threatening to vote No if we aren't super nice to you.

    Zubes made no reference to your vote in the 2015 referendum, because it isn't relevant. What's relevant is that you are behaving in a manner similar to some No voters in that referendum as explained by Zubes above.


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    #5534
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Wow, a poll of 500 people.
    On an American website.
    That's representative of 2018 Ireland ;)

    It doesn't really matter how many took part, the point is nor everyone goes along with the claim made.


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    #5535
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    He was saying that you're a person that is pro life who is pretending to be open minded on the topic while posting pro life material. And people did the exact same during the marriage referendum. It's parallels rather than saying you opposed marriage referendum.

    To be honest, given the way he's been treating my post, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the poster knew this but continues to misrepresent it anyway.


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    #5536
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    horseburger wrote: »
    Christ above.

    Do you seriously believe that if Ronan Mullen or Danny Healy Rae had said it that they would not have been accused of disrespect and sexism and devaluing women?

    What?

    The only way this sentence makes any sense is if you think becoming a mother inherently increases a woman's value.

    A person who is pregnant is not a mother, she is an 'expectant mother' (or simply 'a pregnant woman', or however else she prefers to refer to herself) until the pregnancy ends and the baby is born.

    Do we call men whose partners are pregnant 'fathers' or 'expectant fathers' or 'fathers-to-be'?


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    #5537
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    It is abundantly clear from the rest of his post that he is saying you are engaging in similar behaviour, not that you voted one way or the other:



    Zubes made no reference to your vote in the 2015 referendum, because it isn't relevant. What's relevant is that you are behaving in a manner similar to some No voters in that referendum as explained by Zubes above.


    I am asking questions of the arguments being made about abortion.

    Is that wrong?


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    #5538
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    B0jangles wrote: »
    What?

    The only way this sentence makes any sense is if you think becoming a mother inherently increases a woman's value.

    A person who is pregnant is not a mother, she is an 'expectant mother' until the pregnancy ends and the baby is born.

    Do we call men whose partners are pregnant 'fathers' or 'expectant fathers' or 'fathers-to-be'?

    Isn't the difference there that the father doesn't have a living being growing inside him?

    Anyway you are avoiding the point which is why didn't she receive any criticism, considering if it had been stated by Ronan Mullen you can be sure he'd get criticized.


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    #5539
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Women who had had miscarriages but no other children are now mothers according to this. Interesting but I advise not trying to explain this to one of those.


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    #5540
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    B0jangles wrote: »
    What?

    The only way this sentence makes any sense is if you think becoming a mother inherently increases a woman's value.

    A person who is pregnant is not a mother, she is an 'expectant mother' (or simply 'a pregnant woman', or however else she prefers to refer to herself) until the pregnancy ends and the baby is born.

    Do we call men whose partners are pregnant 'fathers' or 'expectant fathers' or 'fathers-to-be'?

    I like the way you use the phrase "pregnancy ends and baby is born", indicating that the ending of a pregnancy is not an accurate phrase with which to reference abortion.


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    #5541
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    horseburger wrote: »
    Isn't the difference there that the father doesn't have a living being growing inside him?

    Anyway you are avoiding the point which is why didn't she receive any criticism, considering if it had been stated by Ronan Mullen you can be sure he'd get criticized.

    It is a difference certainly, it is not the only difference - the major difference that they share is neither person is a parent until the pregnancy ends and the child is born.


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    #5542
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Women who had had miscarriages but no other children are now mothers according to this. Interesting but I advise not trying to explain this to one of those.

    People can call themselves mothers if they want.
    I didn't call myself a mother until my first child was born. I was and still am not solely a mother. No one has to describe themselves as per a constitutional definition.


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    #5543
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    horseburger wrote: »
    Isn't the difference there that the father doesn't have a living being growing inside him?

    Anyway you are avoiding the point which is why didn't she receive any criticism, considering if it had been stated by Ronan Mullen you can be sure he'd get criticized.
    Are you still pretending to be open to a discussion? I imagine Ronan Mullen tends to get more flack because he effectively represents religious orders more so than the actual public. This includes sexist jabs and offensive remarks with the full knowledge he's causing offence.


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    #5544
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    B0jangles wrote: »
    It is a difference certainly, it is not the only difference - the major difference that they share is neither person is a parent until the pregnancy ends and the child is born.

    Well I think that view is disrespectful not to consider that the pregnant woman is a mother because of the way the pregnancy changes the routine and circumstances.


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    #5545
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    horseburger wrote: »
    Isn't the difference there that the father doesn't have a living being growing inside him?

    Anyway you are avoiding the point which is why didn't she receive any criticism, considering if it had been stated by Ronan Mullen you can be sure he'd get criticized.
    How many times do you need it explained , a fetus is NOT a living human being.
    Get over it and move on.


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    #5546
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,017 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    horseburger wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter how many took part, the point is nor everyone goes along with the claim made.
    Yes, of 500 americans, some agreed with you.
    That doesn't help your position. May as well post that some Saudis are anti-repeal.
    baylah17 wrote: »
    A pregnant woman does not become a mother merely through pregnancy, to become a mother a woman must give birth.
    Its a quite simple fact really.
    +1
    I don't know how many more strawmen the No side can put on the table.


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    #5547
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    horseburger wrote: »
    I like the way you use the phrase "pregnancy ends and baby is born", indicating that the ending of a pregnancy is not an accurate phrase with which to reference abortion.

    For a person who is keen to seek out truth, you are extraordinarily quick to attempt twist to people's words.

    I was attempting (possibly clumsily, and if so I apologise to anyone I've unintentionally hurt) to include situations in which wanted pregnancies end in stillbirth.


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    #5548
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    baylah17 wrote: »
    How many times do you need it explained , a fetus is NOT a living human being.
    Get over it and move on.

    I take it you believe it just starts living after 9 months in the womb.

    What could it be only human, a human foetus, that it is created by two other separate humans?


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    #5549
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Are you still pretending to be open to a discussion? I imagine Ronan Mullen tends to get more flack because he effectively represents religious orders more so than the actual public. This includes sexist jabs and offensive remarks with the full knowledge he's causing offence.
    Yup

    The same prick who abused Savitas memory by claiming she never wanted to be pregnant!!!
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ronan-mullen-strongly-criticised-for-comments-on-savita-1.3262015


    “If there was abortion on demand she wouldn’t have been in the hospital because she wouldn’t have been pregnant and she wouldn’t have been having a miscarriage.”


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    #5550
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    lazygal wrote: »
    The constitution calls every pregnant person a mother.

    Only in the 8th amendment, in the idiotic text we are about to delete.


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    #5551
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    horseburger wrote: »

    Anyway you are avoiding the point which is why didn't she receive any criticism, considering if it had been stated by Ronan Mullen you can be sure he'd get criticized.

    He didn't say it, and he's not getting abuse, so it's a non argument.

    So, seeing as you're on the fence (Hah.) What do you see as the arguments in favour of Repeal?


This discussion has been closed.
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