The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

horseburger

B0jangles wrote: »

For a person who is keen to seek out truth, you are extraordinarily quick to attempt twist to people's words.

I was attempting (possibly clumsily, and if so I apologise to anyone I've unintentionally hurt) to include situations in which wanted pregnancies end in stillbirth.

Was I supposed to know you were referencing stillbirths when you didn't mention it?

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

Well I think that view is disrespectful not to consider that the pregnant woman is a mother because of the way the pregnancy changes the routine and circumstances.

Have you ever spoken to a pregnant woman?

baylah17

horseburger wrote: »

I take it you believe it just starts living after 9 months in the womb.

What could it be only human, a human foetus, that it is created by two other separate humans?

It has the potential, and only the potential, for human life until it reaches the sate of viable life outside of the host human.

B0jangles

horseburger wrote: »

Well I think that view is disrespectful not to consider that the pregnant woman is a mother because of the way the pregnancy changes the routine and circumstances.

A pregnant person is not a mother, she is a pregnant person.

Why on earth would anyone consider it disrespectful to call her that, unless they think being pregnant is somehow less worthy of respect than being a mother?

B0jangles

horseburger wrote: »

Was I supposed to know you were referencing stillbirths when you didn't mention it?

So you didn't know what I meant, so you just made up your own weird interpretation and ran with it instead of asking for clarification.

Edward M

B0jangles wrote: »

It is a difference certainly, it is not the only difference - the major difference that they share is neither person is a parent until the pregnancy ends and the child is born.

I wouldn't agree with that, though that is open to interpretation.
This is a helpful link for prospective parents, even before considering having a baby.
https://psychcentral.com/lib/are-you-ready-to-be-a-parent/
Personally I feel if someone has conceived at all, regardless of what decision they make on the pregnancy, they make those decisions as a parent, and are entitled to call themselves a parent, man or woman.

horseburger

Sofiztikated wrote: »

He didn't say it, and he's not getting abuse, so it's a non argument.

So, seeing as you're on the fence (Hah.) What do you see as the arguments in favour of Repeal?

The issue is that he would

Wasn't Mattie McGrath recently accused of calling Catherine Noone fat, when all he did was use a well known phrase talking about discussions not having been completed.

As in "it ain't over till the fat lady sings"

Here's an item

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859

He got 'slammed' for it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-slam-td-mattie-mcgraths-bizarre-fat-lady-comments-about-senator-noone-36405136.html

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

The issue is that he would

Wasn't Mattie McGrath recently accused of calling Catherine Noone fat, when all he did was use a well known phrase talking about discussions not having been completed.

As in "it ain't over till the fat lady sings"

Here's an item

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859

He got 'slammed' for it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-slam-td-mattie-mcgraths-bizarre-fat-lady-comments-about-senator-noone-36405136.html

What on earth has that got to do with anything?

lazygal

horseburger wrote: »

The issue is that he would

Wasn't Mattie McGrath recently accused of calling Catherine Noone fat, when all he did was use a well known phrase talking about discussions not having been completed.

As in "it ain't over till the fat lady sings"

Here's an item

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859

He got 'slammed' for it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-slam-td-mattie-mcgraths-bizarre-fat-lady-comments-about-senator-noone-36405136.html

He got slammed cos he's an arsehole.

baylah17

horseburger wrote: »

The issue is that he would

Wasn't Mattie McGrath recently accused of calling Catherine Noone fat, when all he did was use a well known phrase talking about discussions not having been completed.

As in "it ain't over till the fat lady sings"

Here's an item

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859

He got 'slammed' for it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-slam-td-mattie-mcgraths-bizarre-fat-lady-comments-about-senator-noone-36405136.html

Pitiful lame distraction!
WTF has that got to do with the repeal of the evil 8th?

gozunda

January wrote: »

Say the Garda would be very interested in this too.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10160261450765608&id=576200607
What's your thoughts on that Robert

Regarding the posters and the images they contain - what is the situation on the thread? I havn't seen any posts with these included here - did I just not see them? or are the posting of such images permitted etc?

note: I don't wish to post any- just curious.

horseburger

B0jangles wrote: »

So you didn't know what I meant, so you just made up your own weird interpretation and ran with it instead of asking for clarification.

I was clearly referencing how you used a phrase, in reference to a birth, that is regularly used to refer to abortion.

Meaning that the euphemism 'ending of a pregnancy' is not an accurate way to reference abortion, even though it is only used with regard to abortion, to avoid dealing with the imagery around what abortion involves.

Sofiztikated

"horseburger wrote: »

Irrelevant tosh.

Again, if you are on the fence, what do you see as arguments in favour of Repeal?

gmisk

horseburger wrote: »

The issue is that he would

Wasn't Mattie McGrath recently accused of calling Catherine Noone fat, when all he did was use a well known phrase talking about discussions not having been completed.

As in "it ain't over till the fat lady sings"

Here's an item

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/mattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fmattie-mcgrath-criticised-for-fat-lady-sings-abortion-comments-1.3325859

He got 'slammed' for it

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politicians-slam-td-mattie-mcgraths-bizarre-fat-lady-comments-about-senator-noone-36405136.html

And didnt John McGuirk call his own Libertas candidate a "psychotic bitch"....
These weeemen all so sensitive....

Ave Sodalis

gozunda wrote: »

Regarding the posters and the images they contain - what is the situation on the thread? I havn't seen any posts with these included here - did I just not see them? or are the posting of such images permitted etc?

note: I don't wish to post any- just curious.

There's been a few posts on them. Mainly the pro-life ones were discussed because of their contents. Nothing against posting them, but some of them are a bit graphic so might be NSFW.

Zubeneschamali

B0jangles wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone consider it disrespectful to call her that, unless they think being pregnant is somehow less worthy of respect than being a mother?

Hypothetically, and not referring directly to anyone in this thread, if you were reading carelessly, dashing off replies as fast as you could type, and determined never to admit an error, you could easily end up writing nonsense like this which you don't actually believe but cannot withdraw without losing points for your imaginary school debating team.

horseburger

baylah17 wrote: »

Pitiful lame distraction!
WTF has that got to do with the repeal of the evil 8th?

What it has to do with it is that the comment was made in reference to the Oireachtas Committee proceedings on the Eighth.

Mattie McGrath was being criticized for a comment he made, where he didn't reference the person that people insinuated he referenced.

If you read the item, that would not need to be explained to you.

B0jangles

Edward M wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that, though that is open to interpretation.
This is a helpful link for prospective parents, even before considering having a baby.
https://psychcentral.com/lib/are-you-ready-to-be-a-parent/
Personally I feel if someone has conceived at all, regardless of what decision they make on the pregnancy, they make those decisions as a parent, and are entitled to call themselves a parent, man or woman.

Is this not an article recommending that people who are about to have a baby should be preparing themselves for the major changes to their lives that having a baby will bring? It's not really about the literal meaning of the words parent, mother and father - its about understanding how to prepare for parenthood.

Ave Sodalis

horseburger wrote: »

What it has to do with it is that the comment was made in reference to the Oireachta Committee proceedings on the Eighth.

Mattie McGrath was being criticized for a comment he made, where he didn't reference the person that people insinuated he referenced.

If you read the item, that would not need to be explained to you.

The irony of you calling me arrogant is growing.

ohnonotgmail

horseburger wrote: »

What it has to do with it is that the comment was made in reference to the Oireachta Committee proceedings on the Eighth.

Mattie McGrath was being criticized for a comment he made, where he didn't reference the person that people insinuated he referenced.

If you read the item, that would not need to be explained to you.

but what does it have to do with the 8th amendment itself? You know, that thing we are discussing?

B0jangles

horseburger wrote: »

I was clearly referencing how you used a phrase, in reference to a birth, that is regularly used to refer to abortion.

Meaning that the euphemism 'ending of a pregnancy' is not an accurate way to reference abortion, even though it is only used with regard to abortion, to avoid dealing with the imagery around what abortion involves.

So you were trying to use a slightly unclear phrase of mine referring to childbirth to try to drag the conversation back to one of your usual talking points?

Still 'on the fence', yeah?

AmNotADude55

"Child destruction is the crime of killing an unborn but viable foetus; that is, a child "capable of being born alive", before it has "a separate existence"."


"People have been convicted of the offence for injuring a heavily pregnant woman in the abdomen, such that her foetus dies"


So if 8th ammendment gets dropped - do we decriminalise this and if someone attacks pregnant woman and she has miscarriage - they only get charged for assault? Because according to certain posters here - fetus isn't a living human.



(Not voting, idc about this matter, just curious what are peoples opinions on this)

horseburger

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but what does it have to do with the 8th amendment itself? You know, that thing we are discussing?

It relates to the comment that I referenced that was made on 7th March last year, during a debate on a bill for a wider circumstance for abortion that was proposed by PBB/AAA.

ohnonotgmail

AmNotADude55 wrote: »

"Child destruction is the crime of killing an unborn but viable foetus; that is, a child "capable of being born alive", before it has "a separate existence"."


"People have been convicted of the offence for injuring a heavily pregnant woman in the abdomen, such that her foetus dies"


So if 8th ammendment gets dropped - do we decriminalise this and if someone attacks pregnant woman and she has miscarriage - they only get charged for assault? Because according to certain posters here - fetus isn't a living human.



(Not voting, idc about this matter, just curious what are peoples opinions on this)

"People have been convicted of the offence for injuring a heavily pregnant woman in the abdomen, such that her foetus dies"

I dont see any mention here that the foetus is a living human so your post makes no sense.

horseburger

B0jangles wrote: »

So you were trying to use a slightly unclear phrase of mine referring to childbirth to try to drag the conversation back to one of your usual talking points?

Still 'on the fence', yeah?

What's your position on the referendum?

ohnonotgmail

horseburger wrote: »

It relates to the comment that I referenced that was made on 7th March last year, during a debate on a bill for a wider circumstance for abortion that was proposed by PBB/AAA.

So it has nothing to do with the 8th amendment then?

Edward M

B0jangles wrote: »

Is this not an article recommending that people who are about to have a baby should be preparing themselves for the major changes to their lives that having a baby will bring? It's not really about the literal meaning of the words parent, mother and father - its about understanding how to prepare for parenthood.

I know, I just thought it useful.
Just curious as to how you interpret being a parent. Would you say a fetus has a mother and father or what?
If it has a mother and a father, if you don't call them parents what do you call them?
To me the two people involved in conception are the mother and the father, I would consider them parents.
I only know of one alleged immaculate conception.

B0jangles

horseburger wrote: »

What's your position on the referendum?

100% pre-repeal, I think I've been pretty clear on that throughout.

Yours?

Sofiztikated

Edward M wrote: »

I know, I just thought it useful.
Just curious as to how you interpret being a parent. Would you say a fetus has a mother and father or what?
If it has a mother and a father, if you don't call them parents what do you call them?
To me the two people involved in conception are the mother and the father, I would consider them parents.
I only know of one alleged immaculate conception.

My wife had a miscarriage, am I a father? Is she a mother?

horseburger

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

The irony of you calling me arrogant is growing.

I was pointing out that by your posting here, you would be less likely to sway any undecided voters, than for example, by the way Donal Lynch makes his arguments in his interviews and writing on the issue.

And that is pretty important if you are hoping people will vote the way you'd like them to.