The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Triceratops Ballet · 17-04-2018 7:46pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote:

Birds and bees.

What do you mean by that?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-04-2018 7:47pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

It's not a checkmate, I just don't see the reason for the healthcare facade. It just clouds and confuses the issue further. If your in favour of abortion on request then just say so instead of taking the imaginary victim who has been raped or terminally ill and say "this is all abortions".

Nobody has said that that is all abortions. And feel free to read back through my posts in this thread, in probably a slim majority of them I've explicitly said I'm in favour of abortion on request. You may have noticed plenty other people weren't exactly coy about it just there either, there is no facade.

The 8th amendment affects every pregnant woman in Ireland. It most cruelly affects rape victims, people with an FFA diagnosis, and other marginal cases. These cases illustrate most clearly what a bad piece of law it is. People don't like them being brought up, because while having pro-choice or pro-life views re: abortion on request is a more ambivalent question, most people are agreed that these cases are morally unacceptable. Supporting the retention of the 8th amendment means that these cases are acceptable collateral damage to a person. So we get "Oh shut up about those and stop pretending to care about them".

January · 17-04-2018 7:59pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Birds and bees.

So you're saying if you don't want a baby then don't have sex basically?

gctest50 · 17-04-2018 8:02pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Women already have that choice, repealing the 8th is not going to change that.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Birds and bees.

So abstain then ? Is that what you are suggesting ?

Simple question just needs a Yes/No answer

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

Hmm something something abstain ............... sounds familiar

,

ohnonotgmail · 17-04-2018 8:02pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Birds and bees.

didn't take too long for the condescending pro-lifer to emerge.

Bannasidhe · 17-04-2018 8:05pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Women already have that choice, repealing the 8th is not going to change that.

Really?
What choice did the raped asylum seeker have?

I don't think you understand what "choice" means.

swampgas · 17-04-2018 8:10pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Women already have that choice, repealing the 8th is not going to change that.

Not all women have a choice.

Is having an FFA pregnancy a choice? Married the wrong bloke, poor stock was he?
Getting pregnant through rape is a choice? Chose a skirt that was too short?

Straight question: should a child raped by her father and made pregnant be barred from having an abortion? Please feel free to explain your thinking. Because the 8th says no abortion permitted.

Edit: winding my neck back in a bit - Rogelio Tinkling Cue, I may have mixed you up with another poster.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-04-2018 8:29pm

Oh look, some lies, again.

Any people who are super seriously for real completely on the fence but find the Repeal campaign off putting so they probably won't vote but they're totally not already very pro-life care to weigh in on this latest entry in a long long series of dishonest and despicable behaviour from Love Both et al? Loads of ye I bet

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-04-2018 8:38pm

January wrote: »

So you're saying if you don't want a baby then don't have sex basically?

Kathy Newman much?

What I'm saying is that people choose whether or not to be sexually active and that carries inherent risks.

17-04-2018 8:39pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Kathy Newman much?

What I'm saying is that people choose whether or not to be sexually active and that carries inherent risks.

and what if you do everything possible to negate these risks, but still get pregnant?
you are aware that no contraception is 100% affective yes?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-04-2018 8:41pm

bubblypop wrote: »

the 8th amendment is not about abortion.
if it is repealed then leglisation will be enacted to cover abortion.
repeal is about so much more, maybe if you actually read the issues facing womens healthcare you might see that.

the 8th should be repealed even if abortion was not an option after.

So just to clarify, it the 8th is repealed abortion will still be illegal in Ireland? If so, how does that address the healthcare issues?

Triceratops Ballet · 17-04-2018 8:41pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote:

So just to clarify, it the 8th is repealed abortion will still be illegal in Ireland?

Yes

Ave Sodalis · 17-04-2018 8:41pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

So just to clarify, it the 8th is repealed abortion will still be illegal in Ireland?

Yes, until legislation is drafted.

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-04-2018 8:41pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

It's not a checkmate, I just don't see the reason for the healthcare facade. It just clouds and confuses the issue further. If your in favour of abortion on request then just say so instead of taking the imaginary victim who has been raped or terminally ill and say "this is all abortions".

Why act like the two are mutually exclusive? You are not uncovering some great conspiracy here. People have been very upfront, open and honest about their position on "abortion on request" (As you call it. Choice based abortion would be more honest as it implies choice is PART of the access to abortion, not the sole mediator of it as your label implies) since the start of the thread.

Right now we are discussing repealing the 8th and allowing such things to be legislated for. While this opens up the discussion on abortion too, it is not the primary focus of the debate except to the no lobby. But no one here, despite your implications, is being shady about the fact that the discussion on abortion as a whole will be opened up. We just do not feel we need to start pointing out things as obvious as water being wet.

It is when it comes to actual legislation that we need to talk more about abortion itself, and lobby out politicians as to what we want included in such legislation. And as many people have had to point out to you, we can not enact legislation that contradicts the constitution.

But we can talk about abortion now too and we have been. But BOTH are arguments about why the 8th need to be repealed. And finding people who focus on one, and then acting like you are outing them for some hidden agenda about the other.... likely only makes you look bad. Not them.

The thread is mainly just people who are able to separate the two topics, and know exactly which one we are about to vote on at this time. There is no "facade" here. Except possibly from you given the mask is slipping and the condescending and simplistic "abstinence" narrative on pregnancy is coming out. A narrative that contrived wilfully and dishonestly to ignore two main things:

1) Not all women who are pregnant chose to be pregnant, from failed contraception to rape to errors of sheer ignorance pregnancies happen all the time without being planned, chosen or expected and

2) Many women who seek choice based abortion DID actually choose to be pregnant. The personal, emotional, physical, social, or economic reasons for why they seek abortion came AFTER the pregnancy came. So the "you had a choice to be pregnant" narrative of high horse-ism fails here. A woman who gets pregnant and her partner cuts out, or her job is terminated, or who has a sudden change in health of circumstances very much chose to be pregnant and now very much wishes not to be for good reason.

So the "keep your legs closed" narrative, even if wrapped up and presented as sweetly and feux innocently as you like, fails on a number of levels from sheer arrogance to sheer errors from being simplistic. I would pocket it before pushing it any further if I were you.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

What I'm saying is that people choose whether or not to be sexually active and that carries inherent risks.

Playing sport carries inherent risks too. But when someone gets injured we do not rush to their side on the back of our trusty steed of high horseyness to admonish them from on high about how they knew what they were getting themselves into.

Life is risks. One after the other. And condescension and tutting at people who fall on the wrong side of a risk helps no one. Be it a sports injury or a pregnancy we can and SHOULD move to offer people options and choices and paths forward. Including abortion.

January · 17-04-2018 8:43pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Kathy Newman much?

What I'm saying is that people choose whether or not to be sexually active and that carries inherent risks.

So yeah you have an issue with people having sex for pleasure. Ok. Thanks

17-04-2018 8:43pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

So just to clarify, it the 8th is repealed abortion will still be illegal in Ireland? If so, how does that address the healthcare issues?

are you aware of what the 8th amendment says?
if it is repealed, then yes, womens healthcare will not be affected by whether or not she is pregnant.
women can then have a say in their treatment.
abortion can be legislated for afterwards.
if repealed the current laws stand until changed.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-04-2018 8:44pm

bubblypop wrote: »

and what if you do everything possible to negate these risks, but still get pregnant?
you are aware that no contraception is 100% affective yes?

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

swampgas · 17-04-2018 8:45pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

Having an abortion often is taking personal responsibility.

I can't think of anything more personal, to be honest.

17-04-2018 8:45pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

are you suggesting that me & my partner should not have sex until I have the menopause?
do you not think that sex is part of a loving healthy relationship?

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-04-2018 8:47pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

They do. Taking responsibility means considering ALL your options, working out the short and long term implications of each one, and then choosing the right one for you no matter how hard it might be. Including abortion.

Giving people options and letting them choose from them IS taking responsibility. Making those choices for them is the opposite. That is Nanny Stateing and taking responsibility FOR them.

Taking responsibility means choosing for yourself. It does not mean "Do what Rogelio Tinkling Cue would do".

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-04-2018 8:48pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Women already have that choice, repealing the 8th is not going to change that.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Birds and bees.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

But only the "don't have sex" type of responsibility apparently. Not the "get an abortion if you're not in a position to be a parent" type?

Meeeeanwhile, in the real world the Irish Pharmacy Union has put forward proposals in line with the outcomes of the Citizens Assembly, which international evidence suggests would reduce the number of abortions. I'm sure every pro-life group and individual in the country will be applauding them.

Easier and cheaper access to contraception, not sitting in judgement on people for having sex.

January · 17-04-2018 8:49pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

I did. I was using contraception it didn't work so I had an abortion to protect the children I already have. There's responsibility for you.

Bannasidhe · 17-04-2018 8:50pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. At some stage people need to take some form of personal responsibility.

By people you mean 'women' as the 8th has as much impact on men's healthcare as being pregnant has on their bodies. Zero.

At least be honest and say women when you mean women.

baylah17 · 17-04-2018 8:51pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

What I haven't been able to get to the bottom of is that if all the health risks, rape, cancer etc was addressed. Would choice* life advocates still be in favour of repealing the 8th?

*amended

Another one claiming to be not sure and then following the established PL/Iona of asking the same question in different ways over and over again looking for a "Gotcha" moment!
Predictable but bloody annoying

v638sg7k1a92bx · 17-04-2018 8:55pm

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Yes, until legislation is drafted.

So how will repeal address the health care issues mentioned?

Triceratops Ballet · 17-04-2018 8:57pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote:

So how will repeal address the health care issues mentioned?

Genuine question, what do you think the 8th amendment does?

baylah17 · 17-04-2018 8:57pm

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Yes, until legislation is drafted.

So how will repeal address the health care issues mentioned?

Grow up, asked and answered , over and over, how much are Youth Defence/Iona paying you to try and disrupt Social Media Discussions?

NuMarvel · 17-04-2018 8:58pm

baylah17 wrote: »

Another one claiming to be not sure and then following the established PL/Iona of asking the same question in different ways over and over again looking for a "Gotcha" moment!
Predictable but bloody annoying

More fool us for engaging with this for this long. It just encourages them.

ohnonotgmail · 17-04-2018 9:00pm

NuMarvel wrote: »

More fool us for engaging with this for this long. It just encourages them.

in fairness it was called early but we let it play out.

gctest50 · 17-04-2018 9:00pm

New signup to boards.ie in.................... 3......2......1

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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