The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

robarmstrong

Trasna1 wrote: »

I would have thought it fairly obvious that the two situations are different. Pro lifers would see the embryo/fetus as a new human life and abortion is the ending of a human life from their perspective. Contraception is the prevention of a human life from occurring so the act of ending it (which is their problem) never happens. This would be an example of the end not justifying the means.

It's my fault, I should have been more clear.

There are a number of pro-life posters who are against preventing pregnancies altogether, my post was a demonstration of that flawed logic by showing that you cannot say you are against the prevention of pregnancy from taking place but utilize contraception.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

It's not for me to say if they should have sex or not, but if they are and they don't plan on having any more children then I suggest they use a form of "birth control" which on the balance of probability will prevent them from ever having any unwanted children.

I take every precaution i can, what would you suggest if my contraception fails?

robarmstrong

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Why don't they just run a campaign based on the merits rather than the imaginary victim?

Why can't pro-life run a campaign based on facts rather than the blatant misrepresentation of facts and outright lies?

v638sg7k1a92bx

robarmstrong wrote: »

Abortion is not a form of contraception.

Do you think it is? If so, my next post to you is going to be very, very educational.

robarmstrong wrote: »

It's my fault, I should have been more clear.

There is a number of pro-life posters who are against preventing pregnancies altogether, my post was a demonstration of that flawed logic by showing that you cannot say you are against the prevention of pregnancy from taking place but utilize contraception.

This is from the intellectual powerhouse who schools people on Facebook and posts pictures on here for all to see.

I feel a very very educational post coming on.

hey guys,
just wondering when does campaining stop before a referendum?
I am due home on the 19th but I think I may be too late to be involved then?

baylah17

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

This is the problem, when you remove the marginal case of the rape victim with the glass eye who has stage 4 cancer, and you concede that repealing the 8th will address none of the healthcare issues which have been raised, the whole argument falls to shreds. Why don't they just run a campaign based on the merits rather than the imaginary victim?

What a filthy sneering disgusting post:mad::mad:
Go tell that to the family of Louise Harte, she didnt get raped or have a glass eye but she died of cancer as a result of having her treatment stopped because of the 8th!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

Rogelio Tinkling Cue

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Contraceptive pill, husband could have tubes tied.

While the Vas deferens are tubular, and are cut and tied as a form of contraception, it can be very difficult for some men who simply don't want children to have one performed without going to a private clinic. Most doctors seem to have a well wait and see if your really sure attitude when asked for a referral by a man who has no children in my experience. Also a vasectomy can fail

The contraceptive pill while great, and an item along with other forms of contraception that the pro life side tried to keep illegal and limit for many years, can also fail.

This leaves women with choices to make, and repeal will hopefully make it easier for some to make the choice that is right for them if abortion is what they decide, because unlike your post regarding imaginary health issues and victims of rape, they are real unless people are living in a blinkered wonder land and they too will hopefully have better choices once repeal is successful.

Neddyusa

bubblypop wrote: »

1.we need to repeal the 8th amendment because it restricts the medical treatment a woman is given when she is pregnant.

do you think women should have to go through unneccesary surgery?

2.do you think women should have to have a pregnancy test before cancer treatment? if it is positive, what do you think happens to that womans medical treatment?



3.do you think a woman should be left to suffer for days/weeks with a slow miscarraige that could cause serious problems?


 
4. do you think a woman should be refused any medical treament because she is pregnant?

1. Not true :
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/medical-myths-about-eighth-amendment-must-be-challenged-1.3451748

2. Pregnant women are always treated for Cancer in Ireland.
See page 35
https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf
Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

3. Miscarriage is treated the same way in Ireland as UK or any other country where Abortions are legal.
UK regs recommend "7-14 day wait for miscarriage to occur naturally"

 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg154/ifp/chapter/Treatment-for-miscarriage
The 8th does not apply as the baby has sadly died in the miscarriage.

4. This does not happen.
Irelands maternal health statistics are better than UK'S and 4 times better than the US:
 https://www.rcpi.ie/news/releases/institute-of-obstetricians-and-gynaecologists-welcomes-new-figures-that-show-ireland-is-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby/

baylah17

Neddyusa wrote: »

1. Not true :
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/medical-myths-about-eighth-amendment-must-be-challenged-1.3451748

2. Pregnant women are always treated for Cancer in Ireland.
See page 35
https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf
Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

Lie
Louise Harte
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

Trasna1

amdublin wrote: »

This is a post from the In Her Shoes Facebook page today:

"Happily married with three healthy children our family was complete. We never quite found the right form of contraception however and I found myself pregnant again. After the initial shock I knew we had to seriously consider our options.

Having suffered from anxiety and post natal depression after the birth of our third child I was still having treatment and taking medication. I didn't want another baby. Neither did my husband.
We discussed it and he said it was my choice. But these were just words, when I tried to make arrangements he didn't engage. I was told if I travelled it would be alone. So without his support I felt it impossible to arrange. I ordered Pills and in my heart I knew taking them would mean the end of my marriage.

This was and remains the loneliest time of my life. It was a huge decision that I could get no help with for fear of judgement or incriminating those I asked for help. I called my psychiatrist and her first response was "you need to stop taking your meds ". The 8th Amendment seemed to surround and suffocate me. I have a lovely GP who i couldn't go and speak to because this would make us both criminals.

In the end I continued with the pregnancy, because I felt trapped than any other reason. Despite assurances from the hospital that I would be cared for by their mental health team, I seen a nurse just once before delivery and that was it.

Where are the "pro life" crowd when the babies are born. When I struggle to walk, so depressed I can't get out of bed. When this 4th child leaves me unable to care for the other 3.

I love my son very very much. He has brought so much joy to me but not all the changes have been for the better. My health has suffered terribly. As has my career and finances.
My marriage is over, he couldn't handle the pressure. Now I'm alone with 4 children. Who from the "pro-life" movement is around to help me now?

The 8th amendment is barbaric, it demeans half the population, restricts access to healthcare and ruins lives.

For all the women in Ireland"
#Repeal8th #trustwomen

Genuine question - I'm not really sure what repealing the 8th would have done in the above story. The individual did have access to abortion by both pills and overseas but didn't go through with it because she didn't have support from her partner. I'm pretty sure you can talk to your GP about abortion options they just can't procure the pill for you.

But as I understand the story, the real problem is the lack of support - Surely the same situation of an unsupportive partner could arise if abortion were free and legal here?

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

a friend of mine was married to a man that had a vasectomy, both of them had grown up children from previous relationships.
she got pregnant.
With twins.
que much rows etc etc turned out he still fathered the children.

no contraceptive is 100% affective.

I am gonna post this again, just i case certain people missed it the first time....

Neddyusa

baylah17 wrote: »

What a filthy sneering disgusting post:mad::mad:
Go tell that to the family of Louise Harte, she didnt get raped or have a glass eye but she died of cancer as a result of having her treatment stopped because of the 8th!
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

Pregnant women are always offered treatment for Cancer in Ireland. Sometimes the baby dies as a result of life saving treatment for the mother. This is covered by medical council guidelines and under the 8th amendment:
See page 35
https://www.medicalcou...th-Edition-2016-.pdf

https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf

Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

baylah17

Neddyusa wrote: »

Pregnant women are always offered treatment for Cancer in Ireland. Sometimes the baby dies as a result of life saving treatment for the mother. This is covered by medical council guidelines and under the 8th amendment:
See page 35
https://www.medicalcou...th-Edition-2016-.pdf

Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

More lies

Read what her obstetrician had to say, her obstetrician being a Professor an one of the most respected in her field
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Neddyusa wrote: »

1. Not true :
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/medical-myths-about-eighth-amendment-must-be-challenged-1.3451748

That is a link to an opinion piece. It's weird to place the words "not true" in front of it.

Fun little fact about Dr Mc Guinness, he previously opposed the exact same guidelines about what constitutes a risk to the mother's life, which he is in your linked article saying are a great model for preventing maternal death.

There was also an excellent response to that article by Louise Kenny, who strongly disagrees with him.

Neddyusa

Neddyusa wrote: »

1. Not true :
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/medical-myths-about-eighth-amendment-must-be-challenged-1.3451748

2. Pregnant women are always treated for Cancer in Ireland.
See page 35
https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf
Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

3. Miscarriage is treated the same way in Ireland as UK or any other country where Abortions are legal.
UK regs recommend "7-14 day wait for miscarriage to occur naturally"

 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg154/ifp/chapter/Treatment-for-miscarriage
The 8th does not apply as the baby has sadly died in the miscarriage.

4. This does not happen.
Irelands maternal health statistics are better than UK'S and 4 times better than the US:
 https://www.rcpi.ie/news/releases/institute-of-obstetricians-and-gynaecologists-welcomes-new-figures-that-show-ireland-is-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby/

i personally had to go through unnecessary surgery because i was pregnant.
my cousin had to have a pregnancy test every week when she went for cancer treatment last year.

Neddyusa

baylah17 wrote: »

More lies

Read what her obstetrician had to say, her obstetrician being a Professor an one of the most respected in her field
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

Facts are detailed on page 35 of the medical councils guidelines here:

https://www.medicalcouncil.ie/News-and-Publications/Reports/Guide-to-Professional-Conduct-and-Ethics-8th-Edition-2016-.pdf

robarmstrong

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

This is from the intellectual powerhouse who schools people on Facebook and posts pictures on here for all to see.

I feel a very very educational post coming on.

There it is, the mask slips. The so-called "on the fence" finally comes out.

You're making it personal now, I like it, that's a tasty recipe for a good threadbanning, so I'll keep it educational.

Abortion is not a form of contraception.

There is no form of contraception that is 100% effective other than abstinence, you really showed your true colours though with the thinly veiled "they know the risk when they have sex" argument. So much for this being your first time discussing this when someone else twigged you were on the previous thread before, eh buddy?

before the super duper educational post comes in, answer these for me like a good boy.

1. Are you pro-life or pro-choice?

2. Are you against abortion in all circumstances?

3. How come you're only going for the pro-choice argument, rather than picking at the pro-life one? Not going to acknowledge the lies and misrepresentation of facts, no?

Sure I'll throw in the educational bit anyways why not, it's late.

There are two sides to this debate, one is consistently twisting and turning all facts and figures to suit them, the other is trying to relay the actual facts across backed up by case studies which support why the 8th should be repealed (the X case, Ms Harte, the others who I'm too tired to go research as I just cannot remember them firsthand unfortunately) which show how the 8th is detrimental to women's health by forcing them to go abroad (in one case even attempting to deny the X girl from leaving the country to have an abortion at 14..) to seek medical procedures that are not made available to them at home due to the extremely strict restrictions on them.

Also, I noticed you never actually answered if you thought abortion was a form of contraception or not. All you've actually done is deflect, deflect and deflect some more.

Typical of that side of the campaign really, can't hold their ground in a reasonable, open and genuine debate so they just deflect and get louder.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Neddyusa wrote: »

4. This does not happen.
Irelands maternal health statistics are better than UK'S and 4 times better than the US:
 https://www.rcpi.ie/news/releases/institute-of-obstetricians-and-gynaecologists-welcomes-new-figures-that-show-ireland-is-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby/

Depends.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnew-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831

gctest50

Neddyusa wrote: »

..........

Trial cancer treatments can be withheld by the Pharmaceutical companies who do not want to be sued should the baby die. This happens in all countries. Nothing to do with the 8th Amendment.

Directly because of the 8th, Michelle Harte died

No passport nor financial means :

“My patient’s only option was to travel to the UK but there were further delays because she did not have a passport nor the financial means to do so,” said Prof Kenny.

The professor was "hamstrung" by the 8th :

Prof Kenny said that in the case of Ms Harte, who was in the first trimester of her pregnancy when she presented, a termination could have been performed but she was “hamstrung” by an absence of clear guidelines and confusion and uncertainty about the legal interpretation of the risk to her patient’s life

When that happens ( and you've other patients to looking after instead of becoming a lawyer ), you seek from the ethics committee & they advised against performing a termination :

The hospital’s ethics committee concluded that there was no immediate risk to Ms Harte’s life, and advised against performing a termination.

As she had stopped her treatment, her condition deteriorated rapidly. She eventually travelled to Britain for an abortion by which stage she was severely ill.

Unless you're looking at a different version

Here's the version i'm looking at - might be worth subscribing to these things sometimes :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/eighth-amendment-casts-shadow-over-care-for-pregnant-women-1.3454604

Prof Kenny said that in the case of Ms Harte, who was in the first trimester of her pregnancy when she presented, a termination could have been performed but she was “hamstrung” by an absence of clear guidelines and confusion and uncertainty about the legal interpretation of the risk to her patient’s life.

The hospital’s ethics committee concluded that there was no immediate risk to Ms Harte’s life, and advised against performing a termination.

“My patient’s only option was to travel to the UK but there were further delays because she did not have a passport nor the financial means to do so,” said Prof Kenny. “As she had stopped her treatment, her condition deteriorated rapidly. She eventually travelled to Britain for an abortion by which stage she was severely ill.

Neddyusa

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

Depends.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnew-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831

Yes, it varies over the years of course.
Your link is to a 2012 report.
2017 report data I quoted.
In both reports Irelands figures are significantly better than US and vast majority of EU countries.

baylah17

Neddyusa wrote: »

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

Depends.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/new-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fnew-report-reveals-sharp-rise-in-number-of-maternal-deaths-1.2111831

Yes, it varies over the years of course.
Your link is to a 2012 report.
2017 report data I quoted.
In both reports Irelands figures are significantly better than US and vast majority of EU countries.

In how many of those countries were women like Savita and Louise needlessly sacrificed by the state?

thee glitz

electro~bitch wrote: »

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Contraceptive pill, husband could have tubes tied.

thee glitz wrote: »

Zappone's gonna make up the numbers by giving out baby boxes.

pleas advice wrote: »

* as a form of birth control, so

Are ye on some kind of pro-life piss up? These are nonsensical posts, literally nothing to do with the posts they're allegedly replying to. Is that what ye're reduced to?

Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

baylah17

thee glitz wrote: »

electro~bitch wrote: »

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Contraceptive pill, husband could have tubes tied.

thee glitz wrote: »

Zappone's gonna make up the numbers by giving out baby boxes.

pleas advice wrote: »

* as a form of birth control, so

Are ye on some kind of pro-life piss up? These are nonsensical posts, literally nothing to do with the posts they're allegedly replying to. Is that what ye're reduced to?

Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

Your point is infantile and childish beyond words
No pun intended
Cop on

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

thee glitz wrote: »

Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

No it's not interesting or relevant at all, unless you think that people campaigning for Repeal are aiming to lower the birth rate.

gctest50

thee glitz wrote: »

Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

It's an absolute master stroke for herself - usually the rate goes down after legalizing it

( cos us humans are funny creatures - give us ABS and airbags and we drive faster to make up for it )

In a few years the birth rate will go up, the abortion rate will go down and she will be all like

" Mo boscai !!!!" " I fixed the country with my baby boxes - look at these stats "

thee glitz

gctest50 wrote: »

It's an absolute master stroke for herself - usually the rate goes down after legalizing it

Source?

robarmstrong

thee glitz wrote: »

Source?

This won't open for me whatsoever and I have no idea why, it just keeps spinning and saying loading across all my browsers, but does this suffice as a source? If not, please let me know so I can rectify my post to reflect it's inaccuracy.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Neddyusa wrote: »

Yes, it varies over the years of course.
Your link is to a 2012 report.
2017 report data I quoted.
In both reports Irelands figures are significantly better than US and vast majority of EU countries.

And some years we're higher than the UK, particularly when the data is collected from hospital reports rather than the CSO. Will we just count the years when the maternal death rate is lower? The ones where it's higher don't suit, do they. The authors of the report which you linked say that our rate of maternal death is broadly in line with that of the UK. It's also noted in the article that I linked to that immigrant and minority communities tend to be overrepresented in maternal deaths, which I'd imagine contributes to the difference.

Any developed, functioning democracy would want to have better outcomes in most healthcare scenarios than the US does.

In relation to EU countries, can you define significant and vast majority please.

thee glitz

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

thee glitz wrote: »

Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

No it's not interesting or relevant at all, unless you think that people campaigning for Repeal are aiming to lower the birth rate.

I suggest it would be interesting to some who are concerned about a demographics problem, and more who are interested in the consequences from the proposed legislation being implemented.

baylah17 wrote: »

Your point is infantile and childish beyond words
No pun intended
Cop on

I don't feel due an explanation as to why, but it would help the thread.

robarmstrong wrote: »

thee glitz wrote: »

Source?

This won't open for me whatsoever and I have no idea why, it just keeps spinning and saying loading across all my browsers, but does this suffice as a source? If not, please let me know so I can rectify my post to reflect it's inaccuracy.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

The link worked for me fine, but there's nothing I can see there to back up the claim. I'm very open to being corrected.

pleas advice

robarmstrong wrote: »

This won't open for me whatsoever and I have no idea why, it just keeps spinning and saying loading across all my browsers, but does this suffice as a source? If not, please let me know so I can rectify my post to reflect it's inaccuracy.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/abortion-rates-go-down-when-countries-make-it-legal-report-n858476

it seems to be more that 'Easier access to birth control drives down abortion rates', rather than the legalisation of abortion.