The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

bruschi

been dipping in and out of this thread for a while but never commented on it. Very much will be voting yes, the 8th in its current guise is completely impractical and puts womens lives in danger. Also, abortions will happen, Irish women are having abortions daily. This wont be stopped, but surely we owe it to them to make sure they are safe and provided for medically and psychologically if they need it.

There are so many arguments on the pro life side that would make me infuriated and the lies and scaremongering go on that you could write a book on it. But it is pointless, nothing will change them and let them keep shouting murderers. The heartache parents go through if they find out their child will not survive birth and would prefer to go through abortion rather than having a still birth is unbearable, and people telling them they are murderers is just reprehensible.

However, on the flip side, one thing that is really annoying me on the pro choice side is the complete dismissal of the unborn child as a clump of cells, or more recently that a toe nail has as much life as a fetus. Try tell a couple who have gone through a miscarriage that they lost a clump of cells or that it was only like a toenail. I get the reasoning, its more to push away the thoughts of it being a potential life. But it is very disingenuous manner to describe a 12 week fetus. How in one set of circumstances can it be considered a joyous expectant life that people celebrate and share news with, but yet others for argument dismiss it as clumps of cells or a blob.

I dont particularly agree with abortion, I would hope I am never in that situation and it would be a last resort, but I also realise it is a necessary procedure for a lot of women and couples. But both sides on this argument are really letting themselves down at times, and the sooner this referendum is over and hopefully new legislation passed, the better.

Yeah_Right

I get that pro-choice point out that before 12 (even 20 weeks) its not a baby but just a clump of cells and that to expectant parents and pro-lifers its a life. Basically people have a different perspective depending on their circumstances.

Its like rabbits. Some people view them as cute, fluffy bunnies and have them as pets. I (and a lot of others) see them as vermin and/or food. Doesn't mean I'm going to kill and eat your pet rabbit but I'm also not going to have one as a pet myself and if the wild ones are destroying property, they're getting shot. I'd say the same about other animals.

blanch152

bruschi wrote: »

been dipping in and out of this thread for a while but never commented on it. Very much will be voting yes, the 8th in its current guise is completely impractical and puts womens lives in danger. Also, abortions will happen, Irish women are having abortions daily. This wont be stopped, but surely we owe it to them to make sure they are safe and provided for medically and psychologically if they need it.

There are so many arguments on the pro life side that would make me infuriated and the lies and scaremongering go on that you could write a book on it. But it is pointless, nothing will change them and let them keep shouting murderers. The heartache parents go through if they find out their child will not survive birth and would prefer to go through abortion rather than having a still birth is unbearable, and people telling them they are murderers is just reprehensible.

However, on the flip side, one thing that is really annoying me on the pro choice side is the complete dismissal of the unborn child as a clump of cells, or more recently that a toe nail has as much life as a fetus. Try tell a couple who have gone through a miscarriage that they lost a clump of cells or that it was only like a toenail. I get the reasoning, its more to push away the thoughts of it being a potential life. But it is very disingenuous manner to describe a 12 week fetus. How in one set of circumstances can it be considered a joyous expectant life that people celebrate and share news with, but yet others for argument dismiss it as clumps of cells or a blob.

I dont particularly agree with abortion, I would hope I am never in that situation and it would be a last resort, but I also realise it is a necessary procedure for a lot of women and couples. But both sides on this argument are really letting themselves down at times, and the sooner this referendum is over and hopefully new legislation passed, the better.

I think you are misinterpreting the point about toenails and such like.

The NO campaign are using a limited definition of human life to assert that a fetus is fully human and alive from the moment of conception. The point being made by the YES side is that the application of that definition results in a toenail or a toenail clipping equally being declared as fully human and alive. That does not mean that the YES side believe a toenail clipping is the same as a fetus, just exploring the implications of the NO side position.

Yes, a fetus is a potential human being, with the actual point at which humanity is conferred being a matter of dispute, and subject to both theological and philosophical consideration as well as science. In exploring where that point of becoming human might be, pointing out that the definition used by one side is flawed because it would also apply to toenail clippings is not a sign of disrespect to a fetus, it is pointing out the logical flaws in the NO stance.

Incidentally, while I myself have compared a toenail clipping to a four-week old fetus in that context, I haven't seen the 12-week comparison referenced by you.

bruschi

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you are misinterpreting the point about toenails and such like.

The NO campaign are using a limited definition of human life to assert that a fetus is fully human and alive from the moment of conception. The point being made by the YES side is that the application of that definition results in a toenail or a toenail clipping equally being declared as fully human and alive. That does not mean that the YES side believe a toenail clipping is the same as a fetus, just exploring the implications of the NO side position.

Yes, a fetus is a potential human being, with the actual point at which humanity is conferred being a matter of dispute, and subject to both theological and philosophical consideration as well as science. In exploring where that point of becoming human might be, pointing out that the definition used by one side is flawed because it would also apply to toenail clippings is not a sign of disrespect to a fetus, it is pointing out the logical flaws in the NO stance.

Incidentally, while I myself have compared a toenail clipping to a four-week old fetus in that context, I haven't seen the 12-week comparison referenced by you.

My own personal beliefs are that it isnt a human being until it is born. I think most rational people would agree with that. But that isnt to say that some of the talk on the yes side are very dismissive of the fetus. It's just a point I made. It doesnt make any impact on my voting preference, but I think it lets down the yes side to be so dismissive of the potential life.

I also think there are far worse arguments being made on the no side, but it would be utterly pointless to even attempt debate or contradict them. Lowering one selves to the level of lies and spurious arguments doesnt lend itself to the yes side.

seachto7

I am living in Dublin, but registered to vote in Limerick.

I am not sure if I have to vote in Limerick or can I vote by post for this?

I was thinking of changing my voting address to Dublin, but to be honest, and this is parochial, if there was a general election in 2 months, I would not want to vote for someone in Dublin. I'd rather vote for someone in Limerick. Selfish I know, but that's the way it is.

amdublin

Completely agree that women/couples who have a miscarriage see it as losing a baby.

At the end of the day Savita Halpannavar didn't want an abortion. She wanted a baby.
Due to a combination of the rules of the 8th amendment and medical mismanagement she ended up losing her life and the baby (Which sadly was always going to die)

I guess for me if I was in a couple or even if on my own. If I or my partner was six months pregnant and we are losing the baby. Would I be devastated about the baby? Of course. But would I want any risk (any! Not just close to death risk!) to me or my partner.

That for me is why the 8th amendment must go.

I want living women to be in hospital knowing they are the priority over anything else. Not equal to an early foetus or an unborn baby.

And I know the law says "equal" but sometimes it feels to me like we are in fact number 2.

Please trust women. Repeal the 8th.

pjohnson

amdublin wrote: »

Completely agree that women/couples who have a miscarriage see it as losing a baby.

At the end of the day Savita Halpannavar didn't want an abortion. She wanted a baby.
Due to a combination of the rules of the 8th amendment and medical mismanagement she ended up losing her life and the baby (Which sadly was always going to die)

I guess for me if I was in a couple or even if on my own. If I or my partner was six months pregnant and we are losing the baby. Would I be devastated about the baby? Of course. But would I want any risk (any! Not just close to death risk!) to me or my partner.

That for me is why the 8th amendment must go.

I want living women to be in hospital knowing they are the priority over anything else. Not equal to an early foetus or an unborn baby.

And I know the law says "equal" but sometimes it feels to me like we are in fact number 2.

Please trust women. Repeal the 8th.

Women are second to the foetus. Remember that case a few years ago where a deceased woman was forced to be kept on life support due to her being pregnant?

Zubeneschamali

bruschi wrote: »

My own personal beliefs are that it isnt a human being until it is born. I think most rational people would agree with that.

Well, no, I think this is obviously biologically wrong. Birth is a legal line, it doesn't reflect any inherent change in the fetus/baby, it is just a matter of law and geography.

Birth is a good line to pick for citizenship, inheritance and all of that sort of law, but it is not the best point to pick for when the law should offer protection.

BabysCoffee

I'll be canvassing for a Yes vote for the first time, this coming Saturday.
Looking forward to it.
I'll report back here afterwards about how it goes.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

BabysCoffee wrote: »

I'll be canvassing for a Yes vote for the first time, this coming Saturday.
Looking forward to it.
I'll report back here afterwards about how it goes.

I'm going this evening hopefully!

Zubeneschamali

seachto7 wrote: »

I am living in Dublin, but registered to vote in Limerick.

I am not sure if I have to vote in Limerick or can I vote by post for this?

You'll have to head down to Limerick to vote.

Peintre Celebre

I do not believe in the murder of babies, so will be voting no

ohnonotgmail

seachto7 wrote: »

I am living in Dublin, but registered to vote in Limerick.

I am not sure if I have to vote in Limerick or can I vote by post for this?

I was thinking of changing my voting address to Dublin, but to be honest, and this is parochial, if there was a general election in 2 months, I would not want to vote for someone in Dublin. I'd rather vote for someone in Limerick. Selfish I know, but that's the way it is.

do any of the following apply to you?

• An Irish diplomat or his/her spouse posted abroad
• A member of the Garda Síochána
• A whole-time member of the Defence Forces.

• Of a physical illness or disability
• You are studying full time at an educational institution in Ireland, which is away from your home address where you are registered
• You are unable to vote at your polling station because of your occupation
• You are unable to vote at your polling station because you are in prison as a result of an order of a court.

if not you cant get a postal vote. the deadline to register for a postal vote is the 28th of this month.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html#leb892

gmisk

ohnonotgmail seems to have given you all the info...but you should vote either way

Zubeneschamali

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

I do not believe in the murder of babies, so will be voting no

What do you think we should do with the 170,000 Irish women who have murdered their babies since 1983? Would you like to see a 14 year jail sentence applied, per the Protection of Life during pregnancy act?

Or is that just a line, and you don't want justice for those babies because actually you do not believe that at all?

captbarnacles

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

I do not believe in the murder of babies, so will be voting no

Me either but I'll be voting yes.

AnneFrank

After much thought and alot of consideration, i am voting no.
This is my choice. I do not need to read posters to do this for myself, or have
someone half my age try and convince me otherwise.
I will also not try and convince anyone else to vote my way.
It's a personal choice.Don't be a sheep. Make up your own mind, either way.

seamus

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

I do not believe in the murder of babies, so will be voting no

I don't think you'll find anyone who believes in the murder of babies.

Thankfully that's not being put to a vote.

NuMarvel

seachto7 wrote: »

I am living in Dublin, but registered to vote in Limerick.

I am not sure if I have to vote in Limerick or can I vote by post for this?

I was thinking of changing my voting address to Dublin, but to be honest, and this is parochial, if there was a general election in 2 months, I would not want to vote for someone in Dublin. I'd rather vote for someone in Limerick. Selfish I know, but that's the way it is.

You could look at changing your vote to Dublin and then back to Limerick afterwards, but that'd probably still mean a trip to Limerick to get the Garda to stamp the form when you're changing it back. And that's assuming they don't raise some kind of objection due to you not living in the area.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Anybody who's murdered a baby should go the fcuk to jail, as a rule. Anyone who believes that there are thousands of women in this country who've murdered a baby and those women should face no punishment is a terrible human being.

I'll be voting yes.

gmisk

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

I do not believe in the murder of babies, so will be voting no

Either do I, I am voting Yes.

So you want to just keep it as it is?...people having back street abortions, or traveling to England (if they can afford it), or ordering dodgy pills online....perfect solution.

NuMarvel

AnneFrank wrote: »

After much thought and alot of consideration, i am voting no.
This is my choice. I do not need to read posters to do this for myself, or have
someone half my age try and convince me otherwise.
I will also not try and convince anyone else to vote my way.
It's a personal choice.Don't be a sheep. Make up your own mind, either way.

If listening and considering the viewpoints and arguments of others is "being a sheep", then baaaahhhh.

ohnonotgmail

AnneFrank wrote: »

After much thought and alot of consideration, i am voting no.
This is my choice. I do not need to read posters to do this for myself, or have
someone half my age try and convince me otherwise.
I will also not try and convince anyone else to vote my way.
It's a personal choice.Don't be a sheep. Make up your own mind, either way.

AnneFrank wrote: »

Save The 8th.

What a shock.

gmisk

AnneFrank wrote: »

After much thought and alot of consideration, i am voting no.
This is my choice. I do not need to read posters to do this for myself, or have
someone half my age try and convince me otherwise.
I will also not try and convince anyone else to vote my way.
It's a personal choice.Don't be a sheep. Make up your own mind, either way.

Yep you posted the exact same thing word for word in the thread about the posters.
I am not sure what age has to do with it.
I have no idea what age you are but the chances are someone half your age is more likely to be affected by keeping this in place.
No problem, that is your choice.

nozzferrahhtoo

bruschi wrote: »

However, on the flip side, one thing that is really annoying me on the pro choice side is the complete dismissal of the unborn child as a clump of cells, or more recently that a toe nail has as much life as a fetus.

A large portion of your annoyance can be alleviated however in changing what you think that argument is to what the argument actually is. And while the ACTUAL argument might still annoy you, we can hope it will annoy you less.

The difference is no one is saying that it has as much LIFE as a fetus. They are saying it has as much SENTIENCE as a fetus (that is to say:none).

Imagine a continuum of sentience. At the top end we could place the sentience of the average human male. At the bottom end we could place a rock. Then we could place things on that continuum.

Dolphins and chimps would be up towards our end of it. Dogs further down. The common house fly way down. And so on. Toe nails will be down at the rocks.

The fetus at 12/16 weeks could only be placed down where the toe nails and rocks are. The lights simply are not on, and no one is home. And even the light fittings are still be installed because most of the wiring is not even done yet either.

bruschi wrote: »

Try tell a couple who have gone through a miscarriage that they lost a clump of cells or that it was only like a toenail.

Actually that IS what we do when we work with the trauma of miscarriage at certain stages. Now of course we do not do it as directly or crassly as you describe here. But that is essentially what we work towards through a slower incremental methodology of empathy and understanding and education. We try to alleviate their grief and suffering by divesting them from some of the narratives that are the source of that suffering.

I can go into this more if you like, but simply google scholar papers on grief counselling with respect to miscarriage, and the concepts of "Loss of a baby" versus "Loss of a pregnancy" and the Swanson model. It is well documented.

bruschi wrote: »

I get the reasoning, its more to push away the thoughts of it being a potential life.

Rather than a push away of those thoughts it is an open acknowledgement of them AND their implication. When one realizes it is a potential rather than an actual.... one then is forced to question why we apply the concerns of an actual to a potential. No one is pushing those thoughts away at all therefore.... rather they are following them openly and honestly to their conclusions.

bruschi wrote: »

But it is very disingenuous manner to describe a 12 week fetus. How in one set of circumstances can it be considered a joyous expectant life that people celebrate and share news with, but yet others for argument dismiss it as clumps of cells or a blob.

Quite easily. We are as Terry Pratchett would say not really "Homo Sapien" (the wise ape) but actually "Pans Narrans" the story telling chimp. We parse our life through stories and narratives. And these often run parallel to reality. so we can acknowledge what a fetus ACTUALLY IS in one hand while investing ourselves emotionally in the stories we tell about that fetus in our life narratives. One does not have to forget what a fetus actually is in order to become emotionally invested in what it can become.

But our own emotional investment in what it can become should never be projected on to others. Least of all by forcing them to continue with an unwanted pregnancy that they are not invested in like we are or would be.

seachto7

NuMarvel wrote: »

You could look at changing your vote to Dublin and then back to Limerick afterwards, but that'd probably still mean a trip to Limerick to get the Garda to stamp the form when you're changing it back. And that's assuming they don't raise some kind of objection due to you not living in the area.

I suppose so...

AnneFrank

Quote from the other thread about people wanting to rip down the no posters, very well made.


realdanbreen
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I love the way the YES camp view themselves as liberal and yet want to behave like fascists.

ELM327

AnneFrank wrote: »

Quote from the other thread about people wanting to rip down the no posters, very well made.


realdanbreen
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I love the way the YES camp view themselves as liberal and yet want to behave like fascists.

IN fairness the yes campaign is crowdfunded by real irish people as opposed to big american dollars
And the yes campaign don't print lies like "1 in 5" or "if abortion at 6 months bothers you vote no", nor do they bring doctored photos of abortions.

If you're going to start criticising the repeal side's campaigning as a method of making your choice you've backed the wrong horse.

Triceratops Ballet

AnneFrank wrote: »

Quote from the other thread about people wanting to rip down the no posters, very well made.


realdanbreen
Registered User
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Posts: 3,551
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I love the way the YES camp view themselves as liberal and yet want to behave like fascists.

I'd hardly call that a point well made it's just a random statement backed up with no evidence of fascist behaviour, we can all do that!

ELM327

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I'd hardly call that a point well made it's just a random statement backed up with no evidence of fascist behaviour, we can all do that!

93.5% of random statements are made up on the spot.
And are probably more accurate than any propaganda slogan used by the no side.