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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #6842
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    horseburger wrote: »
    You are chronologically incorrect in using that phrase with regard to the referendum on the 8th amendment, either now, or in 1983.

    That phrase was used in 1995, shortly after the result of the divorce referendum.

    If you had bothered to look this up before trying to be a smart ass, you would know that.

    A recent article in Joe.ie, about campaigns for abortion provision, throughout the 1980s, incorrectly suggested that that phrase had been used in 1983.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/how-wife-swappin-sodomites-won-the-right-to-remarry-1.2070412

    https://comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

    https://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/screen-shot-2012-07-29-at-18-35-13.png

    https://www.joe.ie/life-style/story-of-the-8th-how-right-wing-catholic-groups-staged-a-remarkable-political-coup-614595

    Imagine most on here are fully aware of that fact. However many of those who opposed divorce also campaigned for the eighth. The control of women was pretty central to both.


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    #6843
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    horseburger wrote: »
    You are chronologically incorrect in using that phrase with regard to the referendum on the 8th amendment, either now, or in 1983.

    That phrase was used in 1995, shortly after the result of the divorce referendum.

    If you had bothered to look this up before trying to be a smart ass, you would know that.

    A recent article in Joe.ie, about campaigns for abortion provision, throughout the 1980s, incorrectly suggested that that phrase had been used in 1983.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/how-wife-swappin-sodomites-won-the-right-to-remarry-1.2070412

    https://comeheretome.com/2012/07/29/una-bean-mhic-mhathuna-40-years-of-reactionary-politics/

    https://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/screen-shot-2012-07-29-at-18-35-13.png

    https://www.joe.ie/life-style/story-of-the-8th-how-right-wing-catholic-groups-staged-a-remarkable-political-coup-614595

    Meh. Same people. Same attitudes.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #6844
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Because for someone who's "on the fence" you've come in here and attempted over and over and over to nitpick any and everything on the pro-choice campaign and you flat out refuse to mention anything about the pro-life campaign and any negative connotations from that side.

    Answer the question.



    Why are you refusing to engage?

    Why do you want to know?

    You haven't engaged in discussion on the points I made - on the contradiction of what Ivana Bacik said, on grounds for abortion, with regard to what Patricia Lohr said, regarding grounds for abortion.


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    #6845
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Imagine most on here are fully aware of that fact. However many of those who opposed divorce also campaigned for the eighth. The control of women was pretty central to both.

    Blah blah blah


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    #6846
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I am amazed that the Referendum Commission have no control over the content of posters. It's like Brexit - lies lies & more lies.


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    #6847
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    horseburger wrote: »
    Why do you want to know?

    You haven't engaged in discussion on the points I made - on the contradiction of what Ivana Bacik said, with regard to what Patricia Lohr said, regarding grounds for abortion.

    Because others have already engaged with your "points".

    It's funny how all of your "points" are negatively geared towards the pro-choice but you never have anything to mention about the pro-life side from a negative standpoint, why is that?

    You've been asked in this thread, numerous times for your opinion on the pro life campaign and each and every single time you've deflected or ignored it.

    Answer it.
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    As someone who's "on the fence" -

    What are your comments about the shortcomings of the pro-life campaign?


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    #6848
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    horseburger wrote: »
    Why do you want to know?

    You haven't engaged in discussion on the points I made - on the contradiction of what Ivana Bacik said, with regard to what Patricia Lohr said, regarding grounds for abortion.

    What's your opinion on the pro life campaign?

    You're motivated enough about highlighting what you see as the repeal campaign's shortcomings to write replies hundreds of words long, with hours of video. You've no vested interest in disparaging the repeal campaign because you're on the fence. You've considered the whole debate carefully.

    So scrape together 50 words on the PLC.


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    #6849
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    horseburger wrote: »
    Blah blah blah

    That's a mature and well thought out response.


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    #6850
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Because others have already engaged with your "points".

    It's funny how all of your "points" are negatively geared towards the pro-choice but you never have anything to mention about the pro-life side from a negative standpoint, why is that?

    You've been asked in this thread, numerous times for your opinion on the pro life campaign and each and every single time you've deflected or ignored it.

    Answer it.

    You don't seem to think - by the way you dismiss what I said, by insinuating that it isn't a relevant to consider the exchange between Peter Fitzpatrick and Patricia Lohr, and the interview with Maria Steen and Ivana Bacik - that it is an important issue.

    If you dismiss me in that way, as you have done now, and earlier in the thread, I feel no inclination to engage with you.

    Remember though, if you're canvassing, that your apparent dislike-ability might not do you any favours.


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    #6851
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #6852
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    horseburger wrote: »
    You don't seem to think - by the way you dismiss what I said, by insinuating that it isn't a relevant to consider the exchange between Peter Fitzpatrick and Patricia Lohr, and the interview with Maria Steen and Ivana Bacik - that it is an important issue.

    If you dismiss me in that way, as you have done now, and earlier in the thread, I feel no inclination to engage with you.

    Remember though, if you're canvassing, that your apparent dislike-ability might not do you any favours.
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    As someone who's "on the fence" -

    What are your comments about the shortcomings of the pro-life campaign?

    Nah, sick of the deflection. You've been dismissing people left right and centre, sure you only done it a few moments ago to someone else, you aren't getting away that easily.

    You don't feel inclined to engage with any discussions regarding the ongoings and shortcomings of the pro-life campaign, you are absolutely obsessed with the supposed issues with the pro-choice campaign, the sheer amount of effort you go to in just trying to discredit it is ridiculous, you're very clearly not "on the fence" or "just asking questions", you've come in here with a very nasty agenda and now that you've been caught, you don't want to fess up. Nobody on this thread will engage with you (most likely) until you comment on the PLC with the same amount of enthusiasm that you have to make comments and find issues on the pro-choice campaign.


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    #6853
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I appreciate your honesty, yes it is absolutely grim stuff, it is hard to watch for myself in particular as my partner and I have had personal experiences with abortion and miscarriages, it's never easy.

    I'm against abortion myself, but I'm voting to repeal so that abortion can be legal here due to me not wanting my future daughters to suffer as the women before them have.


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    #6854
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    darced wrote: »
    I just watched some videos of an actual abortion, grim stuff. I find it hard to believe anyone who is pro-abortion can watch that and feel comfortable with their stance. I was always against abortion anyway but then again truth be told I'll not be having one either so I might just sit this one out.

    I had a colonoscopy this week, the pictures and procedure is horrible. Medical procedures often look horrible. Also before 12 weeks is not a surgical procedure.


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    #6855
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    horseburger wrote: »
    Why do you want to know?

    You haven't engaged in discussion on the points I made - on the contradiction of what Ivana Bacik said, on grounds for abortion, with regard to what Patricia Lohr said, regarding grounds for abortion.

    But what difference does it really make?
    If the proposed legislation is enacted there will be abortion freely available up to 12 weeks. Presumably most ( they are in other countries ) abortions will be carried out before 12 weeks.
    I imagine there very few women who decide half way through their 7 month of pregnancy that they want to terminate.


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    #6856
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,592 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    garbo speaks wrote: »
    I really hope that those who will vote yes will be able to sleep with themselves if this referendum is passed.

    Nah ill be sleeping with all the loose women who won't be afraid to get pregnant once they can get millions of abortions on demand.


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    #6857
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Lots of religious zealots too though,


    On the repeal side?

    Nope, course not.
    religious zealots only exist on no side.


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    #6858
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/woman-who-died-after-abortion-was-discharged-despite-vomiting-inquest-told-1.3467432

    Oh my good god, is this what awaits us, the murder of five month old developing human beings.

    How can we make sure if the Eighth is repealed that this doesnt happen in Ireland.

    That woman had a child at home waiting for her mum to come back.

    How was that Doctor and those nurses not struck off.


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    #6859
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    darced wrote: »
    I just watched some videos of an actual abortion, grim stuff. I find it hard to believe anyone who is pro-abortion can watch that and feel comfortable with their stance. I was always against abortion anyway but then again truth be told I'll not be having one either so I might just sit this one out.

    What type of abortion?
    No one is pro abortion, people are pro choice.

    I hope your partner, girlfriend, sister, best girl friend, never need an abortion in this country, because you will be making sure that they don't.


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    #6860
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    One mad thing about this thead is that virtually every poster on the pro-life side has been in favour of abortion in some case or other which the 8th prohibits. Rape, incest FFA ...

    (Not counting the mad lads like yerman in favour of abortion up to birth but voting to save the 8th for economic reasons!!)

    you know you could be right , but i'm being asked to repeal the 8th and told that proposed legislation will be 12 weeks and the rest.
    Essentially a strict 8th to an almost free for all..that's a huge leap.
    The situation is going to have many people stuck in the middle as it were.

    But I can't morally accept the proposed legislation, so I'll vote no to retain the 8th.

    If there was a better choice I may say otherwise but I can't get over the morality that it's a procedure to end a life.


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    #6861
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    horseburger wrote: »
    Blah blah blah

    That's a mature and well thought out response.
    If so then it's that posters first


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    #6862
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    baylah17 wrote: »
    If so then it's that posters first

    He won't engage with me because I "dismissed" him.

    Feel free to poke him with
    robarmstrong wrote: »
    As someone who's "on the fence" -

    What are your comments about the shortcomings of the pro-life campaign?

    til you get a response though, if he won't reply to me he'll have to reply to someone.


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    #6863
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    tretorn wrote:
    Oh my good god, is this what awaits us, the murder of five month old developing human beings.
    tretorn wrote:
    How can we make sure if the Eighth is repealed that this doesnt happen in Ireland.
    That woman was 22 weeks pregnant.
    The proposed legislation here is termination up to 12 weeks, preventing the need for surgery in many cases.

    That woman decided to have an abortion. She went to England to have it. The 8th amendment here didn't stop her.


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    #6864
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #6865
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    But if they went against your hopes and sought an abortion, would you not rather them have it in their own country with the appropriate aftercare and support provided to them?


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    #6866
    BabysCoffee
    Registered Users Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭BabysCoffee


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    A large portion of your annoyance can be alleviated however in changing what you think that argument is to what the argument actually is. And while the ACTUAL argument might still annoy you, we can hope it will annoy you less.

    The difference is no one is saying that it has as much LIFE as a fetus. They are saying it has as much SENTIENCE as a fetus (that is to say:none).

    Imagine a continuum of sentience. At the top end we could place the sentience of the average human male. At the bottom end we could place a rock. Then we could place things on that continuum.

    Dolphins and chimps would be up towards our end of it. Dogs further down. The common house fly way down. And so on. Toe nails will be down at the rocks.

    The fetus at 12/16 weeks could only be placed down where the toe nails and rocks are. The lights simply are not on, and no one is home. And even the light fittings are still be installed because most of the wiring is not even done yet either.



    Actually that IS what we do when we work with the trauma of miscarriage at certain stages. Now of course we do not do it as directly or crassly as you describe here. But that is essentially what we work towards through a slower incremental methodology of empathy and understanding and education. We try to alleviate their grief and suffering by divesting them from some of the narratives that are the source of that suffering.

    I can go into this more if you like, but simply google scholar papers on grief counselling with respect to miscarriage, and the concepts of "Loss of a baby" versus "Loss of a pregnancy" and the Swanson model. It is well documented.



    Rather than a push away of those thoughts it is an open acknowledgement of them AND their implication. When one realizes it is a potential rather than an actual.... one then is forced to question why we apply the concerns of an actual to a potential. No one is pushing those thoughts away at all therefore.... rather they are following them openly and honestly to their conclusions.



    Quite easily. We are as Terry Pratchett would say not really "Homo Sapien" (the wise ape) but actually "Pans Narrans" the story telling chimp. We parse our life through stories and narratives. And these often run parallel to reality. so we can acknowledge what a fetus ACTUALLY IS in one hand while investing ourselves emotionally in the stories we tell about that fetus in our life narratives. One does not have to forget what a fetus actually is in order to become emotionally invested in what it can become.

    But our own emotional investment in what it can become should never be projected on to others. Least of all by forcing them to continue with an unwanted pregnancy that they are not invested in like we are or would be.

    Thanks for this Nozzferrahhtoo

    Every time you post I learn something new


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    #6867
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    And if they required one for medical reasons? Suck it up sis, I'll soon have a sister AND a niece to mourn?


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    #6868
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #6869
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    tretorn wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/woman-who-died-after-abortion-was-discharged-despite-vomiting-inquest-told-1.3467432

    Oh my good god, is this what awaits us, the murder of five month old developing human beings.

    How can we make sure if the Eighth is repealed that this doesnt happen in Ireland.

    That woman had a child at home waiting for her mu to come back.

    How was that Doctor and those nurses not struck off.

    By ensuring she has access to an earlier termination, and proper after care, nearer her home and family, and not in a foreign country.


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    #6870
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    darced wrote: »
    Suction abortion. Well I hope they wouldn't choose an abortion anyway so we're good.

    What if they actually need one? Because of their health or because of a diagnosis of FFA.

    And the proposed legislation for Ireland is allowing for terminations up to 12 weeks. Which means the woman will take a pill, so you don't need to worry about suction abortions.


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    #6871
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    darced wrote: »
    Suction abortion. Well I hope they wouldn't choose an abortion anyway so we're good.

    Vote according to your conscience, and I really respect you're considering abstaining.

    However, the vast majority of abortions under the proposed legislation would consist of taking two pills, and passing the foetus and other contents of the womb, like a very heavy period.

    I actually know women who ended up having surgical abortions BECAUSE of the 8th.

    The abortion rate is unlikely to change much should the 8th be repealed, and if that's combined with other recommendations from the citizens assembly about access to contraception, the rate should come down from where it is now.

    I'd strongly urge anyone who would like to reduce the rate of abortion to speak to your local representatives and your kids' schools if applicable about contraception and sex education because these are the things proven to lower the abortion stats.


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