The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

I know. It can be done, if there is any appetite for it. (They've decided there is no appetite in Northern Ireland either, BTW, and have suspended the 2nd case indefinitely. Or may have dropped it quietly since.)

But the claim was that something to do with abortion was legal because nobody had been charged with it - that is the most arrant nonsense. 

There is no wish for embarrassing trials that will call attention to Ireland's very dubious treatment of women, because prolife know that such a trial would only hasten the end of the law, not strengthen it. Doesn't mean it would actually be legal for doctors to act in the way it is claimed they did though.

Agree that the post you were responding to was as you put it nonsense, I'd use strong language to describe it. 
I did listen to the piece on Matthew coopers show about it, where he asked a lawyer for life member if they believed if women in the republic who were found to be purchasing such pills should be charged, he tried to avoid answering the question but eventually said no.
At this time during the debate and being close to the vote, they are no going to come out and say yes and they do not wish to highlight such a case. But what if repeal is not successful, given attitudes and the laws in the north and the republic are pretty similar, who is to say what their attitude will then if/when someone is caught.
It took 35 years, numerous court cases and deaths to get a vote on repeal of the 8th if it fails this time round, it might be a while before we get another vote, so I don't think that the pro life side would care if such a case occurred if repeal failed, they don't really care what the rest of the world think of us in that sense.

kneemos

Edward M wrote: »

Of course it is!

No idea how it could possibly be construed as political.

Bannasidhe

horseburger wrote: »

On the episode of Prime Time on 18th January 2018, Maria Steen states that Germany doesn't allow for abortion in the case of Down's Syndrome or other disabilities, but abortion in cases of Down's Syndrome. is occurring in Germany under a different ground - under the ground of mental health.

Maria Steen in the Prime Time debate on 18th January 2018, stated that abortions in the case of Down's Syndrome are occurring in Germany under mental health grounds.

Ivana Bacik did not challenge this in the Prime Time debate.

It is clear that Ivana Bacik endorses the stance of Patricia Lohr of BPAS, because Ivana Bacik posted, on youtube, the video of the address to the Oireachtas Committee, of Patricia Lohr.

I am relating this to Patricia Lohr of BPAS stating clearly, at the Oireachtas Committee on 22nd November 2017, that a case of abortion for "foetal sex" reasons - sex selection - where the woman does not want a boy or girl, would be would be permitted under another ground.

It is detailed in the Oireachtas video of that days proceedings and in the transcript for that day.

Peter Fitzpatrick TD spoke at the 1 hour 58 minute mark.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=37332&&CatID=127&StartDate=01 January 2017&OrderAscending=0

https://media.heanet.ie/p/20171122+Joint+Committee+on+Eighth+Amendment+of+the+Constitution/HbnSmB

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/EAJ2017112200002#N240

As an aside, If I ever had the misfortune to correct a dissertation you had written I would be employing the ol green pen a great deal to draw lines through your endless quotes and video links and asking you to tell me in your own words what exactly your opinion as I can read/see for myself what *insert name here* says/thinks should I wish to know their opinion/position.

You'd be lucky to get a pass tbh.

horseburger

blanch152 wrote: »

The great thing about the issues you raise with the legislation, is that if those fears (although they appear completely irrational to me) come to pass, the Oireachtas will be swiftly able to correct them. So if DS babies are being aborted at 24 weeks, we can change the law very easily.

Isn't that a great thing about the repeal that we both support.

You are missing the point.

In Germany, it is not permitted to approve of abortions in cases of disabilities like Down's Syndrome, but abortions are being approved of, in Germany, in cases of Down's Syndrome, under mental health grounds.

The issue, as a result of that is, that if an abortion sought, is not permitted on the ground originally sought, that the abortion can be approved of, under another ground.

Therefore there is no certainty that an abortion - that is sought for a reason not permitted in legislation as a ground for abortion - isn't occurring under another ground for abortion.

Dr Patricia Lohr Medical Director of BPAS, stated at the Oireachtas Committee meeting on 22nd November 2017, that if an abortion - that is sought on the basis of not wanting to continue the pregnancy, on the basis of whether the "foetal sex" is male or female - is not permitted on the ground sought, of sex selection, or as phrased by Dr Patricia Lohr "foetal sex", that the abortion can be permitted under another ground.

horseburger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As an aside, If I ever had the misfortune to correct a dissertation you had written I would be employing the ol green pen a great deal to draw lines through your endless quotes and video links and asking you to tell me in your own words what exactly your opinion as I can read/see for myself what *insert name here* says/thinks should I wish to know their opinion/position.

You'd be lucky to get a pass tbh.

Thanks for that worthwhile contribution and attempt to avoid the issue I am highlighting.

Bannasidhe

horseburger wrote: »

Thanks for that worthwhile contribution and attempt to avoid the issue I am highlighting.

You are not highlighting.
You are regurgitating.

horseburger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are not highlighting.
You are regurgitating.

I responded to someone who mistakenly thought that Germany allows for abortion on the ground of Down's Syndrome.

It isn't my fault they misread what I wrote.

gctest50

horseburger wrote: »

......

I am relating this to Patricia Lohr of BPAS stating clearly, at the Oireachtas Committee on 22nd November 2017, that a case of abortion for "foetal sex" reasons - sex selection - where the woman does not want a boy or girl, would be would be permitted under another ground.......

FUD yet again


If a woman in Ireland wants to select gender, and she has the money and can travel, she can do it right now

Bannasidhe

horseburger wrote: »

I responded to someone who mistakenly thought that Germany allows for abortion on the ground of Down's Syndrome.

It isn't my fault they misread what I wrote.

I was referring to your endless stream of this person said blah blah... then later this other person said yada yada... and now here are some you tube clips.

That is not discussing. It's regurgitating.

You, personally, are saying little and most of that is waffle. Or off topic as it is not relevant to Ireland, republic of.

I reckon you're looking at a grade of about 45% - and I'm grading on the curve so your mark is generous only because there have been some truly dire and off topic posts.

gctest50

horseburger wrote: »

...........

It is clear that Ivana Bacik endorses the stance of Dr Patricia Lohr Medical Director of BPAS, because

Ivana Bacik posted, on youtube, the video of the address to the Oireachtas Committee, by Patricia Lohr.

more space-filling paid-by-the-wordcount looking cr@p logic

If i post, on youtube, a kitten video - it doesn't mean i'm a crazy-cat-lady


on youtube, on youtube,on youtube,

trying to make her look really bad by going to the massive expense of posting on youtube

Samuel T. Cogley

Any links to your kitten videos?

gctest50

no multimedia - there is this though. :


http://www.mommyish.com/10-reasons-to-have-an-abortion/

RobertKK

kneemos wrote: »

Mary Loo,s election poster s.https://www.newstalk.com/Sinn-Fin-launches-campaign-calling-for-Yes-vote-in-Eighth-Amendment-referendum

Tiocfaidh ar ta?

horseburger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As an aside, If I ever had the misfortune to correct a dissertation you had written I would be employing the ol green pen a great deal to draw lines through your endless quotes and video links and asking you to tell me in your own words what exactly your opinion as I can read/see for myself what *insert name here* says/thinks should I wish to know their opinion/position.

You'd be lucky to get a pass tbh.

Thanks again for being so courteous.

What do you think of the points made by Ben Shapiro, in this video, in response to the arguments made for making abortion available?

I think it's interesting because he discusses the use of euphemisms in the arguments, that are made, in advocating for a wider availability of abortion.

He also discusses the issue of at what stage of pregnancy it is acceptable to perform abortions.

He challenges the idea that it is not human before birth. Bríd Smith of People Before Profit suggested on the episode of Tonight With Vincent Browne on TV3 on 6th July 2017, that the baby is a "potential human being as long as it is growing inside the mother", until "when it's born".

Note that Bríd Smith referred to a pregnant woman as a "mother", which is a phrase some posters in this thread, objected to me using, a few days ago.

Does that mean that you, and other very courteous posters, in this thread, agree with Bríd Smith on the "potential human being" until "when it's born" phrases, but disagree with her using the term "mother", when referencing a pregnant woman?

gctest50

RobertKK wrote: »

It was bad hospital care, .....

If Savita Halapaanavar had received a termination when she asked for it she would have survived, left the hospital and perhaps gone on to have children. If the treatment was delayed a little longer, she would have survived, left the hospital but perhaps suffered from subfertility

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes, but it had been known for years before that in healthcare, that travelling to India lead to a specific heightened e coli threat - one that she had acquired.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715591/

Starting to sound very like your argument that the Miss P case was a stunt by her doctors.

Zubeneschamali

thee glitz wrote: »

why resort to arguments based on 'well the Bishop says' when there's no evidence of it being an influential factor and makes you look a clown?

It's true that there are many non-Catholic prolifers in America who are not concerned that the 8th is a codification of narrow Roman Catholic dogma, hence this discussion probably has more non-Catholic Savethe8thers than we do here in Ireland.

Annasopra

kneemos wrote: »

No idea how it could possibly be construed as political.

In order to get here politicians had to be convinced. Parties are taking quite different stances on the issue.

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

I think the exchange between Patricia Lohr and Peter Fitzpatrick discussing grounds for approval of abortion, is very relevant to this issue, of not knowing what will be covered under new legislation.

Good for you, feel free to vote No on that basis.

Except you don't have a vote here, do you?

Zubeneschamali

kneemos wrote: »

Mary Loo,s election poster s.https://www.newstalk.com/Sinn-Fin-launches-campaign-calling-for-Yes-vote-in-Eighth-Amendment-referendum

You could argue that she is using the occasion to raise her profile, which is scummy, but I would say that Sinn Féin has a long tradition of top-down Do What The Council Tells You, so this may be the most effective way to mobilise a Yes vote in their supporters.

Zubeneschamali

horseburger wrote: »

What do you think of the points made by Ben Shapiro, in this video

Is he one of the Banagher Shapiros?

Annasopra

Ben Shapiro, far right extremist? Forgive me if I dont listen to what he has to say given his extreme views race, islam, lgbt issues and his links with extreme Far right media like Breitbart.

Nah. I wont be listening to far right fascists like Shapiro or Justin Barrett on this.

Zubeneschamali

I had the first canvassers of the campaign yesterday evening - gave me a Together for Yes flyer.

I gave them a thumbs up and said I voted against it last time and will again, and got smiles and thanks.

After they were gone I thought to ask how it was going, but too late. This would not be a very pro-choice constituency, I hope they get on OK.

pjohnson

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I had the first canvassers of the campaign yesterday evening - gave me a Together for Yes flyer.

I gave them a thumbs up and said I voted against it last time and will again, and got smiles and thanks.

After they were gone I thought to ask how it was going, but too late. This would not be a very pro-choice constituency, I hope they get on OK.

Odd exchange.

Zubeneschamali

pjohnson wrote: »

Odd exchange.

I'm an odd guy.

kneemos

A combination of conservative older voters who vote on everything and more motivated no voters means we'll be back here again in another ten or fifteen years I reackon.

gctest50

"Medieval biographies of multiple Irish Catholic saints, including beloved Brigid of Kildare, reverently record abortions among their miracles,"


https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/saints-once-did-abortions-it-was-a-lesser-sin-than-oral-sex-1.3466881

dudara

The latest Irish Times poll is out. There’s been a slip in support for both sides, but Repeal is still ahead. It’s going to be close

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/irish-times-poll-public-favour-repeal-of-eighth-despite-slip-in-support-1.3467503?mode=amp

kneemos

dudara wrote: »

The latest Irish Times poll is out. There’s been a slip in support for both sides, but Repeal is still ahead. It’s going to be close

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/irish-times-poll-public-favour-repeal-of-eighth-despite-slip-in-support-1.3467503?mode=amp

A lot of yes voters are of the opinion that abortion isn't right but should be available.
Quite a few of them will leave it up to someone else to vote.

RobertKK

Think the shift is going towards no given the undecided went up with a 9% fall in yes and a 1% fall in no.
The trend will tell a lot in coming weeks.