The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

robarmstrong

horseburger wrote: »

I asked the particular poster what he/she thought of the points Ben Shapiro was making, in response to arguments that are often made to advocate for a wider availability of abortion services.

I did not ask what the poster thought of Ben Shapiro, with regard to Shapiro's outlook, and perspective with regard to a range of issues.

I asked what the particular very courteous poster - who made such nice comments about me, comments that weren't at all off topic in speculating what writing style might be employed in the development of a dissertation - thought of the responding points made, by Ben Shapiro, to arguments that endorse an increase of abortion services.

Would you care to engage with and enlighten those courteous posters who are very keen to hear what comments you have to make about the pro-life campaign, including the statements and inaccuracies the campaign has made.

As someone who is "on the fence" surely you would have some observations or questions to bring up, no? You're asking all these questions about the pro-choice campaign and the opinions of the pro choice individuals on posts you put up but you never address those who question you, in fact you just keep on regurgitating pretty much the same over and over again.

Are you unable to engage with posters who query you about your standpoint on the pro-life campaign? Has someone forbidden you from engaging with people who want your views and observations on that aspect?

If I was on the fence I'd be readily available to give my thoughts and observations on both sides of the matter, so why can't you?

nozzferrahhtoo

AnneFrank wrote: »

Just to be clear, i feel no need to explain the meaning of a post to you.

Great. But then do not presume to admonish OTHER people for failing to keep the debate civilized. Because the lack of decorum and civility is almost solely and entirely coming from you. No one else.

Since you entered this thread you have:

• shouted one liner slogans.
• Disparaged the opinions of people solely on the age of the speaker.
• Ignored questions and posts seeking to engage with you on a mature level.
• Thrown out dismissive schoolyard one liners like "Wow, I'm embarrassed for you"
• Refused to explain yourself when your posts were not clear.
• Played the imaginary victim card by trying to portray any level of disagreement with you as some kind of harassment

At no point have you engaged with the actual topic or people in it. Which is of course your right, and is very representative of the "no" side of this debate as it happens. But it absolutely does NOT give you the pedestal or the high horse that you are acting like you have to admonish others on the topic.

For example of the stuff you have been dodging, you commented on abortion in cases of rape. And you were asked the very simply question about how you imagine that exception could be accessed and implemented. What did you do? IGNORE. The same thing you always do.

You want a civilized debate to be happening? Then act like it rather than moan about it, because actions speak louder than words.

dudara

AnneFrank wrote: »

No matter what side your on, it's such a hard thing to have to think about deeply and vote upon

Not really IMO. I think it’s an easy decision to vote No and create the environment where women can choose. The tough choices will be made by the women, and their partners. The tough choices willmade by the people who are really impacted directly.

AnneFrank

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Good thing you're not on a discussion forum then. Oh wait.

I think you've realized the stupidity of your post and are now furiously trying to backtrack.
My OH had a miscarriage around that time (couple of weeks earlier). We now have a 3 month old daughter. While the miscarriage was definitely tough, we don't feel like we lost a baby, more the idea of a baby. I cannot even begin to comprehend how I'd feel if we lost our daughter now.

No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
Nice perception to have

Bannasidhe

horseburger wrote: »

<shnip - youtube videos again>

Oh dear. Now we have dropped down into the 30 percentile for continued regurgitation and failure to personally engage with the topic. Plus what we in the dissertation correcting game calling 'padding' - a device used to get the word count up.

Is it that you find it difficult to interpret the information and then present it in your own words believing that by quoting other people that covers that deficit or is it a case that you feel appealing to authorities of various kinds on all side of the debate lends gravitas to a position you do not feel able to argue yourself?

Mr. CooL ICE

AnneFrank wrote: »

but it's fine to attack people and misquote them on numerous occasions as long as you're on the yes side.
That's fair.

Mod: Do not discuss moderator decisions on thread. It adds clutter and derails the thread. PM the mod if you have any questions.

If you see any post that needs attention, use the report function. If you have already reported posts and don't see that any action is taken, then either the post is still under review, or mods have decided that no action is necessary. Again, PM a mod for clarification.

Hammer Archer

AnneFrank wrote: »

No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
Nice perception to have

Yes I'm sure it is. And that's their decision and I 100% respect that. But to a lot of women (my partner included), it wasn't. And to a lot of women who wish to have an abortion, a 12 week or earlier pregnancy isn't a baby either. And nothing gives you the right to force your beliefs on them like you're trying to do.

Triceratops Ballet

AnneFrank wrote: »

No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
Nice perception to have

I get that, but how does voting no help them, or anyone?

Timberrrrrrrr

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Great. But then do not presume to admonish OTHER people for failing to keep the debate civilized. Because the lack of decorum and civility is almost solely and entirely coming from you. No one else.

Since you entered this thread you have:

• shouted one liner slogans.
• Disparaged the opinions of people solely on the age of the speaker.
• Ignored questions and posts seeking to engage with you on a mature level.
• Thrown out dismissive schoolyard one liners like "Wow, I'm embarrassed for you"
• Refused to explain yourself when your posts were not clear.
• Played the imaginary victim card by trying to portray any level of disagreement with you as some kind of harassment

At no point have you engaged with the actual topic or people in it. Which is of course your right, and is very representative of the "no" side of this debate as it happens. But it absolutely does NOT give you the pedestal or the high horse that you are acting like you have to admonish others on the topic.

For example of the stuff you have been dodging, you commented on abortion in cases of rape. And you were asked the very simply question about how you imagine that exception could be accessed and implemented. What did you do? IGNORE. The same thing you always do.

You want a civilized debate to be happening? Then act like it rather than moan about it, because actions speak louder than words.

And now you can expect a reply somewhere along the lines accusing you of attacking/intimidating/bullying or some other spurious accusation that will in no way actually be relevant to the truths that you have pointed out.

AnneFrank

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Yes I'm sure it is. And that's they're decision and I 100% respect that. But to a lot of women (my partner included), it wasn't. And to a lot of women who wish to have an abortion, a 12 week or earlier pregnancy isn't a baby either. And nothing gives you the right to force your beliefs on them like you're trying to do.

i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
Nice perception to have

There you go again, dismissing the experience and perception of someone else as inferior because it doesn't line up with your beliefs on the matter.
Why are his feelings on what a baby is any less valid than yours?
I'm starting to think you're doing this intentionally to annoy people.

BarleySweets

AnneFrank wrote: »

No Backtracking here buddy, and i know many women in situations were they could not have another baby, they were not lucky like you,
a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.
Perhaps in your world it was only the idea of a baby.
Nice perception to have

Why do you feel the need to constantly bring miscarriages into this conversation?

It’s totally irrelevant for this referendum and for those of us who’ve lived through it in the past, you’re just pouring salt into open wounds.

bruschi

AnneFrank wrote: »

i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,

by voting no you are. you may not realise it, but you are.

Triceratops Ballet

AnneFrank wrote: »

i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,

by voting no you are, you are not giving people who might need or want the right to choose that opportunity

Hammer Archer

AnneFrank wrote: »

i'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone pal,

You've stated that you're voting no, so you are "pal"/"buddy".

AnneFrank

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I get that, but how does voting no help them, or anyone?

This is why i have consistently said in this thread that i find this decision so hard,
It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view, and others. But all that will do will sway undecided voters imo.
To say i have blood on my hands for having a different view like someone said above is just outrageous.

AnneFrank

Hammer Archer wrote: »

You've stated that you're voting no, so you are "pal"/"buddy".

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
Not a very good argument is it pal.

BarleySweets

AnneFrank wrote: »

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
Not a very good argument is it pal.

No, obviously not. Nobody who is voting yes will force you to do anything. You will literally have a choice to make between having an abortion or not. And that choice will be yours, and yours alone.

bruschi

AnneFrank wrote: »

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
Not a very good argument is it pal.

you're not being forced to have an abortion are you? It's not compulsory you know?

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
Not a very good argument is it pal.

A Yes vote will allow you to continue to live your life by your own morals and opinions, and will afford others the same opportunity. There will be no forced abortions which is what you're clearly hinting at.

A No vote will ensure only one viewpoint is allowed, inflicting that viewpoint on the whole of society. Other people should not have to live their lives arrested by your feelings and morals. Women will undoubtedly suffer because of it.

Why should I (and others) have to live my life, and indeed, have my maternity care restricted, because of your beliefs? Especially when I disagree with them?

What is your justification for that? Are you implying that you know what's best for me, better than I do? Why do you feel you are in a position to take those choices away from women you've never met?

Hammer Archer

AnneFrank wrote: »

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
Not a very good argument is it pal.

No, not at all. A yes vote does not force any woman to have an abortion she doesn't want. It will have no effect on her or you. A no vote forces a woman who is enduring a pregnancy she doesn't want to either continue with it or travel abroad (if she's lucky enough to be able to). So you are forcing your beliefs on people, despite your desperate (and, quite frankly, laughable) attempts to prove otherwise.

optogirl

AnneFrank wrote: »

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ?
Not a very good argument is it pal.

Can you not see that voting yes is giving every woman the CHOICE - nobody will be forced to have an abortion. However voting NO means continued court cases, restrictions on medical treatment, girls, teenagers & women procuring pills containing god knows what over the internet, those who can afford it travelling and therefore not receiving adequate after care, people with diagnoses of FFA having to make that awful journey, abandoned by their own state.

Those who don't think they would ever avail of an abortion will not have to change their own stance one jot if the 8th is removed.

baylah17

AnneFrank wrote: »

This is why i have consistently said in this thread that i find this decision so hard,
It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view, and others. But all that will do will sway undecided voters imo.
To say i have blood on my hands for having a different view like someone said above is just outrageous.

It is a straightforward yes, trust women, Buddy!
And nobody is harassing you, just responding to your constant haranguing and posting of lies, dammed lies, and holier than thou snide comments, Pal!

baylah17

optogirl wrote: »

Can you not see that voting yes is giving every woman the CHOICE -

Ah but you see some people believe that women should not have a choice, ever.
Women need to told whats good for them and do as they are told!:mad:

Triceratops Ballet

AnneFrank wrote: »

This is why i have consistently said in this thread that i find this decision so hard,
It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view, and others. But all that will do will sway undecided voters imo.
To say i have blood on my hands for having a different view like someone said above is just outrageous.

you're entitled to your view on abortion and that's fair enough and while saying that people who vote no will have blood on their hands is a bit dramatic, it's not a million miles from the truth.
If the result of this referendum is no, things will stay just as they are, there will continue to be situations where the hands of doctors are tied, situations like Savita and the poor woman kept alive as an incubator could happen again, more women having to go to the high court to get the state to recognise their bodily autonomy and on and on. The responsibility for that will be on the heads of the people who voted to retain this system. When it happens there will be all sorts of arguments and pillorying of doctors for 'medical mismanagement' when the truth will be very simple, it will have been the fault of some dodgy constitutional amendment that some people voted to retain.

Every single vote matters in this referendum and everyone who votes needs to consider the consequences of their vote, not just for their own conscience, but for the health and welfare of all Irish women.

nozzferrahhtoo

AnneFrank wrote: »

a miscarried baby is a baby to alot of women.

And women suffer unduly due to that error. And your perpetuating such an error serves only to fuel that suffering.

Those of us who actually have worked on that subject, and have read all the papers on things like the Swanson model and grief counselling in miscarriage, know this.

So what we have to do with people suffering high levels of grief after miscarriage is gently, and with empathy and care, unpick that narrative for them. To divest them of suffering by divesting them of the error of the narrative you happily perpetuate either directly or by deference.

It is a narrative that actively causes suffering. Both in people who have suffered the very real physical and emotional horror of a miscarriage........... and people who need the option of abortion to be considered as part of their medical care but can not do so on an emotional, actual, legal, social or political level due to this baseless narrative.

Your throw away "Nice perception to have" comment only tells the half of it. A grip on reality is almost always the best perception to have. And it is throwing that grip away so readily, and almost proudly, that is the problem here.

AnneFrank wrote: »

But you have seen the harassment i have received for airing that view

No one except you seems to be able to find or see this "harassment" and when asked about it, you do not deign to reply or clarify. It simply seems that you see ANY kind of reply or disagreement as harassment. A position so ridiculous I can only question the wisdom of you being on a forum designed for discussion and debate at all.

AnneFrank wrote: »

so buddy, are you forcing your beliefs on me because you are voting yes ? Not a very good argument is it pal.

Again if you want to claim people are not being civil in the debate then you need to observe your own behavior with this passive aggressive language.

That said though, while the democratic process can technically be described as every voter forcing their beliefs on others..... that does not mean every vote is equivalent in that regard.

For example allowing for the option of abortion is giving people a CHOICE. Giving people a choice is not forcing anything on them. Voting to never give them that choice however is.

BarleySweets

baylah17 wrote: »

Ah but you see some people believe that women should not have a choice, ever.
Women need to told whats good for them and do as they are told!:mad:

Exactly! Good point Baylah, lest we all forget that Adam was absolutely set with his garden, it was a fecking paradise FFS! All until Eve fed him that apple. NEVER FORGIVE, NEVER FORGET!

RobertKK

People before profit yes campaigner.

https://twitter.com/pbp_gillian/status/987254833576120322?s=21

Zubeneschamali

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's not a straight forward yes,in simply removing the 8th without some sort of replacement in relation to on demand abortion up to 12 weeks.

You said earlier that you were OK with abortion for rape victims. This is one reason why we need 12 weeks unrestricted access.

The victim cannot wait for the justice system to prove in court that she was raped by John Doe, the child would be born by then. What if a Garda handled evidence badly and a Not Guilty verdict was returned as a result? Not the victims fault.

If we make her sign a statement or swear an affadavit and give her access on that basis, we simply create a system which allows unrestriced access for anyone prepared to lie, which is just a layer of hypocrisy on top of unrestricted access.

Subjecting the victim to a battery of interviews or some sort of rape panel to rule if she is telling the truth or not would be putting real victims on trial, and clearly wrong.

SO - if you want access for rape victims, you must accept that anyone can get access. May as well be honest about that.

NuMarvel

The Belfast student, who brought a case against the State because she wasn't eleigible to register to vote, has had her case dismissed by the High Court.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/987267643664191489

I honestly don't know why her legal representation took the case. It was plain as anyone could see that she didn't have a hope of succeeding.