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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #7052
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Seems like alot of people are talking past one another on this thread.

    Once the right to the unborn has been removed from the constitution, how can that be dealt with to allay concerns that Pro Life people would have?

    It will have no effect on those who are pro-life because abortion won't be forced on anyone.
    They can continue to live their lives as normal with the added benefit of being able to consent/withhold consent while receiving maternity care.

    If you're asking how to allay the concerns they have over OTHER PEOPLE'S pregnancies, I would advise them to stop worrying about the uterus's and sex lives of strangers and mind their own business.


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    #7053
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Seems like alot of people are talking past one another on this thread.

    Once the right to the unborn has been removed from the constitution, how can that be dealt with to allay concerns that Pro Life people would have?

    It’ll be dealt with the exact same way as in every other country that offers abortion. Or do you think that Italy, Spain, the UK, Greece, and every other such country has rescinded all considerations for their unborn children?


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    #7054
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This is a standard line from politicians who are losing: "not what we are hearing on the doorsteps", used to try to stop their voters thinking they've lost already and not bothering to vote. More loser phrases to watch for:

    "The only poll that counts is the one on the day".
    "A week is a long time in politics".
    "Just a snapshot in time".
    "A lot can happen before polling day".
    "The momentum is with us".
    "Let's not second guess the people, the choice is up to them"

    Don’t forget my favorite catchphrase coined in this thread: “Trust (some) women.”


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    #7055
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    baylah17 wrote: »
    That was the motto in place above the Magdelene laundries and Mother and Baby homes that Robert still reveres and defends
    Kind of like the oul Arbeit Macht Frei that another gang in black used.

    Barbaric!


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    #7056
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Looking forward to canvassing tonight, weather is lovely and we'll have a presence from a lot of political parties with us tonight!


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    #7057
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Seems like alot of people are talking past one another on this thread.

    Once the right to the unborn has been removed from the constitution, how can that be dealt with to allay concerns that Pro Life people would have?
    Nothing.
    Their life will not change, they will not have an abortion as they don't now, and that's it.

    Their " concerns " are in an area that they do not have jurisdiction over, which is trying to enforce their " morals " on someone else who may not share their views


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    #7058
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    January wrote: »
    Looking forward to canvassing tonight, weather is lovely and we'll have a presence from a lot of political parties with us tonight!
    If its in Inchicore and you knock on my door you will get a warm welcome.
    Its terrific of you to volunteer your time and effort thanks so much.


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    #7059
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Once the right to the unborn has been removed from the constitution, how can that be dealt with to allay concerns that Pro Life people would have?

    Once the 8th is removed, the prolife people will mostly vanish along with their concerns, the same as the anti-divorce people, anti-contraception people, anti-civil partnership people and anti-same sex marriage people.

    The Citizens Assembly and referendum result will be enough cover for the Government to push through their proposed legislation, and then:

    ... we will never speak of it again. The whole topic will go quiet apart from Iona's home page and the odd speech form Ronan Mullen.


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    #7060
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    gmisk wrote: »
    If its in Inchicore and you knock on my door you will get a warm welcome.
    Its terrific of you to volunteer your time and effort thanks so much.

    Dublin West constituency here but someone will be over your way organising canvases!


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    #7061
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Once the 8th is removed, the prolife people will mostly vanish along with their concerns, the same as the anti-divorce people, anti-contraception people, anti-civil partnership people and anti-same sex marriage people.

    The Citizens Assembly and referendum result will be enough cover for the Government to push through their proposed legislation, and then:

    ... we will never speak of it again. The whole topic will go quiet apart from Iona's home page and the odd speech form Ronan Mullen.
    But surely you must concede if this is repealed it is the end of days?!?!

    Did you miss the sky falling down after same sex marriage was brought in here??


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    #7062
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,105 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    January wrote: »
    Dublin West constituency here but someone will be over your way organising canvases!
    Great thanks :)
    I can see one organised here for next week.
    Will be nice to have a Yes canvas call already had one for the no campaign (I was very polite to them btw..though my wee dog wasnt so keen).


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    #7063
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Seems like alot of people are talking past one another on this thread.

    Once the right to the unborn has been removed from the constitution, how can that be dealt with to allay concerns that Pro Life people would have?

    Concerns that Irish women are having abortions? eh that ship has sailed, they are a couple of decades late.

    They are happening every single day here and in England, what concerns do the ProLifers have about this? afaik they do not care because they do not want the right to travel taken away and they do not want women ordering abortion pills prosecuted.


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    #7064
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    haha i don't think so buddy, but nice try, again.
    Is this another, the idea of winning an argument theory you have as opposed to actually winning one.
    What lovely perceptions you have.
    Please explain.


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    #7065
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    It will have no effect on those who are pro-life because abortion won't be forced on anyone.
    They can continue to live their lives as normal with the added benefit of being able to consent/withhold consent while receiving maternity care.

    If you're asking how to allay the concerns they have over OTHER PEOPLE'S pregnancies, I would advise them to stop worrying about the uterus's and sex lives of strangers and mind their own business.

    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?


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    #7066
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?
    Well the terminations happen anyway so that can't be a valid concern.


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    #7067
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

    Surely you acknowledge the impact an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy can have on the life of a woman?


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    #7068
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

    I acknowledge that people have concerns but I don't feel they should have concerns over me terminating 'a life' inside me because it's none of their business.


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    #7069
    horseburger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    AnneFrank wrote: »
    What about the women who don't agree, and who are voting no.
    I know many by the way.

    You make an interesting point.

    Is Niamh Smyth TD of Fianna Fáil anti-woman?

    Does she not trust women?

    Isn't the real question about whether the clinic, in which an abortion is taking place, should be trusted?

    I say this with regard to how - in a scenario where a staff member of that clinic states to a pregnant woman that the ground under which the abortion is sought by the pregnant woman, is not legal in that jurisdiction, but then suggests that another ground could be used, a ground that had not originally been considered, or requested by the pregnant woman - can the grounds under which abortions are carried out, ever be said to have been carried out strictly in accordance with the legislation that is in place, in that jurisdiction?

    Ian O'Doherty on the Pat Kenny show today made an interesting observation, about the way that certain advocates for a yes vote use tactics that alienate voters - who are undecided and see both sides of the argument - from voting yes.

    He stated:
    "I remember having dealings with some of the hardcore pro life groups when I was starting out as a journalist and they were the worst people in the world, right. A lot of the pro life people that I was used to, were the ones that were really peddling moral superiority. They were really obnoxious. They had some nasty tactics on how they dealt with journalists and stuff like that".

    He added that
    "it really saddens me, as somebody who would consider themselves reluctantly - I'm not on any side - but I would be pro choice, that I see some of the, real sort of bigotry, and sneering intolerance that is coming from some of the pro choice campaigners, as if the assumption that, anybody who is pro life, is automatically a religious fundamentalist - I know Atheist pro lifers".

    He added
    "it's the sneery condescention, against a lot of people on the pro life side that is actually the best marshalling tactic that the pro life people have themselves".

    In the discussion Peadar Toibin TD Fianna Fáil, spoke of how many voters would be supportive of legislation to allow abortion, in circumstances that are not currently permitted. He mentioned "for the most extreme cases". Perhaps an example of what he is referencing, is cases of anencephaly.

    He added that many voters have an extreme difficulty supporting a proposal that will permit abortion with no restriction for the first three months.

    Catherine Noone spoke using the euphemism 'termination of a pregnancy'.

    Why didn't Pat Kenny seek clarification from her, on whether she was using this phrase to reference births, or abortions, considering that a birth of a child coincides with the ending of a pregnancy, just the same as a pregnancy ends when an abortion is carried out?

    https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/44204/20th_April_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_3/


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    #7070
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

    Be concerned all you like. Have all the concerns you want. Call an abortion “the termination of a life”, rather than just “abortion”, till the cows come home. But you don’t have any right to stick your nose into someone else’s family and tell them how to live their life. Exactly the same way as nobody else is going to meddle in your life and tell you what to do and how to live.


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    #7071
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

    It isn't their business.
    It isn't their uterus, it isn't their body, and it isn't their life that will be impacted by the arrival of a life they do not want.
    How can you justify the need to have that level of control over someone you don't even know?

    Abortion on request is currently illegal in Ireland.
    4k abortions are still happening every year.
    We need to look after these women, who are born living citizens, by providing them the healthcare they would be entitled to in any other progressive country in the world.

    We are doing a great disservice to girls and women by denying them these choices.

    If the No vote wins, then what? Nobody wants to repeal the 13th/14th amendment. Nobody wants to see a return of the Magdelene Laundries.
    So then what?
    We just go back to pretending it isn't happening?

    Retaining the 8th changes nothing, Irish women will still access abortion, we'll just go back to collectively lying about it happening.
    We're a nation of hypocrites.


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    #7072
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

    The "life " you are talking about IS someone else's pregnancy.

    And don't call me Shirley.


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    #7073
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    horseburger wrote: »
    Is Niamh Smyth TD of Fianna Fáil anti-woman.

    Does she not trust women?

    Isn't the real question about whether the clinic, in which an abortion is taking place, should be trusted?

    I say this with regard to how - in a scenario where a staff member of that clinic states to a pregnant woman that the ground under which the abortion is sought by the pregnant woman, is not legal in that jurisdiction, but then suggests that another ground could be used, a ground that had not originally been considered, ore requested by the pregnant woman - can the grounds under which abortions are carried out, ever be said to have been carried out strictly in accordance with the legislation

    You’re doing it again, you’re confusing this conversation which is limited to removing one article from the constitution with a debate about legislative matters relating to abortion. Tell your local TDs about any concerns you have about future legislation and what procedures will be required by that future legislation.

    This conversation is about one thing and one thing only, to remove the 8th or not.

    And to answer your direct question about Niamh Smith TD: if she wishes to ignore the concerns of a woman who does not consent to become a mother, then yes, I would consider her to be anti-women. Exactly the same way if anybody singled out men and stopped us from choosing to have a sandwich for lunch and demanded we had soup instead, such people would be anti-men.


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    #7074
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    horseburger wrote: »
    stuff

    Ready to answer some questions yet?

    Are you going to vote yes/no and what restrictions would you like to see in place if it is passed?


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    #7075
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, very powerful video.

    Stop shaming women for making the decisions that are best for them.

    https://vimeo.com/263770515


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    #7076
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Well the terminations happen anyway so that can't be a valid concern.


    I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child? Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

    But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?


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    #7077
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child? Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

    But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?

    So why aren't these people campaigning for the 13th amendment to be repealed if they're so concerned about taking a life?


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    #7078
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The "life " you are talking about IS someone else's pregnancy.

    And don't call me Shirley.

    "someone else's pregnancy" excuse my ignorance but I've heard that term before, could you please explain what it means?


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    #7079
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child? Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

    But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?
    Why did we approve the right to travel and the right to information so?
    By constitutional amendment and majority referendum no less?


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    #7080
    Nettle Soup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    Despite the polls I am nearly 100% positive that Yes will win the referendum. I wasn't so sure a month ago but I have had some good discussions with people about it and I really think people get it - the 8th was a stupid idea imposed by bullies in a different Ireland.
    I think it will be 60-40 Yes.


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    #7081
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    "someone else's pregnancy" excuse my ignorance but I've heard that term before, could you please explain what it means?

    Are you pretending?
    The term is self explanatory.


This discussion has been closed.
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