The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

v638sg7k1a92bx

ELM327 wrote: »

Why did we approve the right to travel and the right to information so?
By constitutional amendment and majority referendum no less?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say? The right to travel???

ELM327

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Despite the polls I am nearly 100% positive that Yes will win the referendum. I wasn't so sure a month ago but I have had some good discussions with people about it and I really think people get it - the 8th was a stupid idea imposed by bullies in a different Ireland.
I think it will be 60-40 Yes.

I share your opinion but think it will be a lot closer.
There's a lot of old dears in the west and north west (and even in the likes of cavan and meath near me) that will tell you they "don't know", but they vote no every time. Not every no voter is a "No Voter And Proud", you know? It's the silent ones that are dangerous.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child? Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?

In our constitution we have enshrined the right of pregnant women to information about abortion & also the right to travel for abortion. So basically our hypocritical constitution says on one hand, the unborn has a right to life, but on the other, the women is entitlted by law to go and have an abortion somewhere else.
So basically our country has stated that so long as women go somewhere else for abortions then that's ok.

can show me something that is illegal in this country, where we have put into our constitution the right of our citizens to go somewhere else to do that thing?

The moral dilemma you worry about really doesn't come into it, those women you worry about so much, will have that abortion anyway, so you are doing anything to save any unborn & merely making a difficult situation far more difficult. For all women & men who need that abortion.

captbarnacles

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child? Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?

Because their moral dilemma is meaningless when they are content to export the problem to England or have it happen here illegally.

ELM327

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say? The right to travel???

Typical uninformed no voter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Zubeneschamali

BarleySweets wrote: »

This conversation is about one thing and one thing only, to remove the 8th or not.

While true, it is clearly the case that the Government (if it survives that long) will bring in legislation allowing abortion up to 12 weeks without restriction if the 8th is repealed.

85% of those surveyed in the MRBI poll released today were aware of the 12 week proposal, and 81% are extremely unlikely to change their mind or absolutely never going to change their mind.

So all the 12 weeks and oh my god that's abortion on demand the public will never go for that and shirley you realize you are killing babies is just noise.

We know, we understand, we are voting Yes.

BarleySweets

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child? Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?

No.

And I replied to your previous post explaining why.

podgemonster

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Despite the polls I am nearly 100% positive that Yes will win the referendum. I wasn't so sure a month ago but I have had some good discussions with people about it and I really think people get it - the 8th was a stupid idea imposed by bullies in a different Ireland.
I think it will be 60-40 Yes.

I hope your right, I'd take 51-49 tbh. But I really don't think there is any room for complacency. Polls were strong in favour of Hillary and the Remain campaign but there's a lot of silent voters out there who don't wish to engage on the issue or want to avoid conflict. When they are finally alone in their voting booths they may go a different way to what they told a Polling company.

I think the Yes side have remain determined and dignified from day one and should continue to do so until midnight on the 24th of May.

captbarnacles

624,059 people voted against the 13th amendment - wonder they have all gone because I haven't heard of anyone admit it.

NuMarvel

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say? The right to travel???

7000 posts in this thread alone, and you think we're going to believe this is the first time you've heard about what the constitution says about the freedom to travel? Pull the other one.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bubblypop wrote: »

In our constitution we have enshrined the right of pregnant women to information about abortion & also the right to travel for abortion. So basically our hypocritical constitution says on one hand, the unborn has a right to life, but on the other, the women is entitlted by law to go and have an abortion somewhere else.
So basically our country has stated that so long as women go somewhere else for abortions then that's ok.

can show me something that is illegal in this country, where we have put into our constitution the right of our citizens to go somewhere else to do that thing?

The moral dilemma you worry about really doesn't come into it, those women you worry about so much, will have that abortion anyway, so you are doing anything to save any unborn & merely making a difficult situation far more difficult. For all women & men who need that abortion.

People are travelling to Amsterdam to take legalised drugs in that country therefore we should we should legalise drugs in Ireland???

Triceratops Ballet

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

People are travelling to Amsterdam to take legalised drugs in that country therefore we should we should legalise drugs in Ireland???

well actually yeah, but that's another debate!

baylah17

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The "life " you are talking about IS someone else's pregnancy.

And don't call me Shirley.

"someone else's pregnancy" excuse my ignorance but I've heard that term before, could you please explain what it means?

Back again with you
"Please explain" distractions
Yada yada
Pathetic

v638sg7k1a92bx

BarleySweets wrote: »

No.

And I replied to your previous post explaining why.

So you don't understand the fundamental crux of the Pro Life argument in that they see abortion as akin to taking a human life, but your response is that it's happening in other countries so what difference does it make???

swampgas

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

People are travelling to Amsterdam to take legalised drugs in that country therefore we should we should legalise drugs in Ireland???

How predictable. Straight from the manual.

A better comparison would be euthanasia. Illegal here and illegal to help someone travel or obtain.

baylah17

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

SusieBlue wrote: »

It will have no effect on those who are pro-life because abortion won't be forced on anyone.
They can continue to live their lives as normal with the added benefit of being able to consent/withhold consent while receiving maternity care.

If you're asking how to allay the concerns they have over OTHER PEOPLE'S pregnancies, I would advise them to stop worrying about the uterus's and sex lives of strangers and mind their own business.

Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

None of your business or anybody else's business what any woman chooses

Zubeneschamali

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

"someone else's pregnancy" excuse my ignorance but I've heard that term before, could you please explain what it means?

Certainly.

Sinéad Fia goes to the doctor and is told she's pregnant. That is someone else's pregnancy.

Later a test says there is a 33% chance that the pregnancy will result in a child who has cerebral palsy, bilateral blindness, total deafness and will require 24 hour care for his or her short life, with a 50% chance of death within a year and only a 10% chance they will live to age 5. That is someone else's pregnancy.

Sinéad and her doctor discuss options, and agree that the best course is to terminate the pregnancy. That is someone else's pregnancy.

Obviously Sinéad lives in England, since the 8th makes such terminations subject to 14 years in jail here for both Sinéad and her doctor. That is not someone else's pregnancy - that is your fault if you vote No.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

well actually yeah, but that's another debate!

What about FGM, that happens in otter countries should we legislate for that in Ireland also?
I fail to understand the argument that just because everybody else is doing it we should be doing it also.

BarleySweets

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

While true, it is clearly the case that the Government (if it survives that long) will bring in legislation allowing abortion up to 12 weeks without restriction if the 8th is repealed.

85% of those surveyed in the MRBI poll released today were aware of the 12 week proposal, and 81% are extremely unlikely to change their mind or absolutely never going to change their mind.

So all the 12 weeks and oh my god that's abortion on demand the public will never go for that and shirley you realize you are killing babies is just noise.

We know, we understand, we are voting Yes.

It’s still a conversation for another time. Totally irrelevant for this referendum.

(And when that conversation happens, I’ll be proudly against any 12 week limit because there’s no time limit on consent. Just like there’s no time limit on receiving information that can make a woman choose to have an abortion, we don’t want a situation where a woman gets bad news at 28, 32, 35 weeks and is then left with no options whatsoever because the legislature only considered 12 weeks as a valid time limit for consent.)

SusieBlue

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

What about FGM, that happens in otter countries should we legislate for that in Ireland also?
I fail to understand the argument that just because everybody else is doing it we should be doing it also.

These arguments are all sounding very familiar, I’m sure I’ve heard them before....

swampgas

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

What about FGM, that happens in otter countries should we legislate for that in Ireland also?
I fail to understand the argument that just because everybody else is doing it we should be doing it also.

You understand only too well, I suspect.

nozzferrahhtoo

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Surely you acknowledge that people have concerns over the termination of a life rather than other people's pregnancies?

It is also useful to acknowledge that this is a shared concern for many. The idea that we want to reduce the number of abortions happening to as close to zero as possible is an ideal shared by BOTH pro and anti choice campaigners.

The difference is that the pro choice campaigners see no benefit, and sometimes even actual detriment, to trying to attain that goal in a non-choice based environment where choice based abortion is illegal.

Let us stop pretending we do not have shared goals and ideals here. We do. We just differ wildly about how and why we should go about attaining those ideals.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I fail to understand that logic, abortions are being carried out anyway so there is no point in being concerned about the life of an unborn child?

Two different issues that. There is some utility some of the time in conflating them but not here.

The first issue is the concern about ending the life of a fetus. I do not think those concerns valid myself as I see no coherent or substantive basis being offered by ANYONE on this thread as to why a 12/16 week old fetus should have rights, or be afforded moral and ethical concern.

The second issue, whether the ending of fetal life should be a concern or not, is abortion itself. It is a medical procedure not without risk and emotional and physical distress.... it is happening..... and often for the health of the pregnant women it is required. And if we want to address those medical concerns, and the abortion concerns, and the well being of women concerns, we have to question the utility of the NIMBY exportation of the problem to another jurisdiction.

The two issues overlap at times and it is useful to acknowledge that. But conflating them with the sole purpose of pretending there is a logic fail there is not going to help anyone, any agenda, or the well being of any woman.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I fail to understand the argument that just because everybody else is doing it we should be doing it also.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Death penalties are being administered in other countries so we should introduce the death penalty in Ireland?

Not a valid comparison. If however it was shown that the death penalty was A) required in ireland under a variety of circumstances and the requirement was being ignore but partially met by exporting it to another jurisdiction and C) exporting it in this fashion was causing real measurable detriment to the well being of our citizens.......... THEN you would have a useful comparison to make.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

But do you not accept the underlying moral dilemma for some people in that they believe abortion is akin to taking a life regardless of where it is happening?

I accept that dilemma exists, but you do not accept my counter statement that there is no basis for that dilemma other than subjective narrative that does not map usefully or coherently onto reality in any way.

In other words the fact people have those concerns is not in doubt. The basis of them, or the reasons to consider them at all valid, is. In isolation for a start, but even more so when taken in the context of the actual well being, freedoms, choices and options of a pregnant woman inside whom their concerns actually lie.

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

People are travelling to Amsterdam to take legalised drugs in that country therefore we should we should legalise drugs in Ireland???

Well yes we should. But not solely for the reason you lay out here. We should do it because it is actually the right thing to do. But that is another debate, one several threads exist about already, but I am happy to discuss it with you in any new thread you start on the subject either.

It is still not a valid comparison but for a few reasons it is somewhat more comparable than the death penalty one. But only barely.

baylah17

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Seems like alot of people are talking past one another on this thread.

Once the right to the unborn has been removed from the constitution, how can that be dealt with to allay concerns that Pro Life people would have?

Why would we want to ally the concerns of these busybodies
It's none of their business
It never was any of their business
If they don't like the result let them campaign for a referendum on the right to stick their noses into other people's lives and dictate how others should live their private lives

amdublin

I really wish people (the pro birthers) would take their noses out of my bedroom and my uterus.

For years they were against contraception.
But now it's ok (ironically it's what they advocate now)

They were against same sex marriage.
Hey look the sky didn't fall down, the sanctity of family (in all its forms) is fine

Hello divorce bye bye daddy.
Our divorce rates haven't shot through the roof. And guess what people are happy with a divorce rather than staying unhappy in an unhappy marriage

I don't involve myself in your bedroom activities and force you to carry a baby in your uterus. So please don't force me.

No one wants an abortion. But sometimes you need one. We need that choice here in our own country instead of exporting it to the UK. Or having unsafe practices of bedroom abortions via pills.

For God's sake where is the humanity??

When this passes and we have choice it changes nothing for the pro brothers but so much for the women who are affected.

Get out of my bedroom

Trust women
Repeal the 8th

v638sg7k1a92bx

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Certainly.

Sinéad Fia goes to the doctor and is told she's pregnant. That is someone else's pregnancy.

Later a test says there is a 33% chance that the pregnancy will result in a child who has cerebral palsy, bilateral blindness, total deafness and will require 24 hour care for his or her short life, with a 50% chance of death within a year and only a 10% chance they will live to age 5. That is someone else's pregnancy.

Sinéad and her doctor discuss options, and agree that the best course is to terminate the pregnancy. That is someone else's pregnancy.

Obviously Sinéad lives in England, since the 8th makes such terminations subject to 14 years in jail here for both Sinéad and her doctor. That is not someone else's pregnancy - that is your fault if you vote No.

Again with the marginal cases to prove the broader argument. Would you be in favour of abortion if the baby was healthy?

uptherebels

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

People are travelling to Amsterdam to take legalised drugs in that country therefore we should we should legalise drugs in Ireland???

If they had constitutional protection to travel to take drugs then your analogy would be accurate.
I assume you are aware of its innacuracy but as with the many anti choicers before you ignore this in desperate attempt to cling to any arguement to try and legitimise their position

captbarnacles

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

What about FGM, that happens in otter countries should we legislate for that in Ireland also?
I fail to understand the argument that just because everybody else is doing it we should be doing it also.

Swing and a miss.

Did the right to information about drugs and FGM and where to obtain either when abroad have to be protected in our constitution?

Do we not prosecute people here who use drugs?

If you are happy for people to do these things but just not here then yes, your moral qualms about them carry little weight.

seamus

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

People are travelling to Amsterdam to take legalised drugs in that country therefore we should we should legalise drugs in Ireland???

If something specific is illegal in your country, but legal elsewhere, and people are travelling to those places so they can legally do it, then absolutely you should look at;

1. Whether it should be legalised here, and it not
2. Whether people should be prevented from travelling to those places to commit that act

It is against the law to travel for the purposes of having sex with a child. You can be stopped at the airport and arrested. Or arrested on your return if the authorities find out. I think everyone can agree that's a sensible law that should exist.

Likewise, if the supporters of the 8th find abortion as morally repugnant as they say, i.e. that it's murder, then why the silence on the 13th amendment? They practically celebrate the 13th amendment as some magical pressure-release valve that means we can keep our country virginal and abortion-free.

If the constitution contained a guarantee that every citizen was permitted to travel abroad for the purposes of having sex with a child, you could be fncking sure there'd be people on the streets demanding its removal.

Yet on abortion, silence. Why?

BarleySweets

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

So you don't understand the fundamental crux of the Pro Life argument in that they see abortion as akin to taking a human life, but your response is that it's happening in other countries so what difference does it make???

If you read what I wrote in a reply to your post you’ll see that I do understand and you’ll also see that I’ve described why that fundamental crux of the Pro Life argument is totally irrelevant and tantamount to meddling in other people’s lives.

I’ll repeat myself here for your convenience: you can make all the comparisons between abortion and taking a life and murder and whatever else you like; you can be concerned all you like too but it’s none of your business.

amdublin

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Again with the marginal cases to prove the broader argument. Would you be in favour of abortion if the baby was healthy?

There are a million and one reasons why an abortion might be required.

It's a discussion and a decision between a woman and her healthcare provider. You mind your own life and leave every woman to deal with hers please and thank you.