The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Undividual

bubblypop wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I recently watched a Ben Shapiro video where he argued that this debate essentially boils down to whether you believe the unborn child/fetus has rights.  As such, he believes that a 'woman's right' is not a sufficient case for violating the rights of the unborn.  

Easy for him to say.
as a woman I find it extremely I insulting & I feel like a second class citizens, that I am not more important than a foetus.

If a person viewed the fetus as a child, could you understand their objection?  My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.  There was a Steven Crowder youtube video where he showed a 9 month fetus/unborn scan image to a woman and (without telling her the age of the fetus/unborn) he asked if it was wrong to abort at that stage.  She said it was ok, which appears to be an emotional or ideological response than a rational one.
I understand that it is frustrating to speak on a topic where the discussion itself can make women feel like 2nd class citizens.  I feel that any opinion I give here is automatically that of a 2nd class citizen due to me being a man.

MrPudding

Kurtosis wrote: »

Just FYI, she actually wrote that piece back in 2009. Although that doesn't change how horrible a sentiment it contains.

Does she strike you as someone that might have changed her mind since then?

MrP

david75

I wouldn’t be letting YouTube or anything on it inform my opinion on anything tbh.

amdublin

January wrote: »

Absolutely disgusting but I'd expect nothing more from Breda.

Good old Breda O'Brienosaur

nozzferrahhtoo

Undividual wrote: »

My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.

Slightly wrong question to ask. The better question to ask is at what point can we safely say the fetus is NOT one. And then compare that to the time periods most abortions actually happen in.... and see if there is a conflict.

The starting point there would of course be, how are you defining "child". What attributes would you say make the definition or use of that particular term coherent?

david75

Didn’t that Supreme Court ruling last week say it wasn’t a child until it’s born?

January

david75 wrote: »

Didn’t that Supreme Court ruling last week say it wasn’t a child until it’s born?

No, not really, what it said was that a fetus had no rights outside the rights they have within the 8th amendment.

BabysCoffee

This case will stay with me forever
http://www.thejournal.ie/life-support-clinically-dead-woman-judgement-1852228-Dec2014/

And it is why I will vote to repeal the 8th

Undividual

January wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I'm undecided on the issue.

I think that legalizing abortion would likely bring a different sub-set of problems (such as gender preference and a potential diminishment of sexual responsibility), which may be preferable to our current situation, but I do not hear discussion about any resulting social outcomes in the mainstream media.  

Which possible social outcomes concern you?

I guess the ones stated above.

I know that China and India have problems with gender-specific abortion.  There was a documentary on TG4 a few years ago which looked at the higher prevalence of sex trafficking in rural China as a result of the higher ratio of men to women / a high number of women leaving to work in urban areas.  Additionally, there is a higher rate of male homosexuality and/or bisexuality in these areas as a result of this deficit.  I don't care about sexuality, all I am saying is that there can be major social impacts for these kinds of decisions.  There's a good book called China's Little Emperors which gives more detail.  I don't see this as necessarily being a problem which would affect Ireland, though we do have citizens from those countries living here.

January

BabysCoffee wrote: »

This case will stay with me forever
http://www.thejournal.ie/life-support-clinically-dead-woman-judgement-1852228-Dec2014/

And it is why I will vote to repeal the 8th

Just a publicity stunt according to RobertKK...

Doctors keep girl on life support for publicity stunt.

amdublin

BabysCoffee wrote: »

This case will stay with me forever
http://www.thejournal.ie/life-support-clinically-dead-woman-judgement-1852228-Dec2014/

And it is why I will vote to repeal the 8th

It's hard to believe that was real life in 2014.

That could happen again tomorrow right? It is real life in 2018.

The 8th amendment must go. It's so so wrong that women's lives and healthcare is treated so callously.

Undividual

david75 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be letting YouTube or anything on it inform my opinion on anything tbh.

Why would you close your mind to new information from any source?  I assume you can discern what is and isn't useful through judgment, no?

BabysCoffee

January wrote: »

Just a publicity stunt according to RobertKK...

Doctors keep girl on life support for publicity stunt.

:-(

I can't bear to think of the condition of the lady when her family buried her.

I don't like to think of the specifics but as far as I recall everything began to break down and....... well I don't really want to go on any further

amdublin

January wrote: »

Just a publicity stunt according to RobertKK...

Doctors keep girl on life support for publicity stunt.

Ah yes. Poor devastated family. Sympathetic and empathetic public. And appalled (aha! the stunt worked)

A stunt. Ffs.

A woman is a real human being not an incubator for a baby and certainly not a vehicle for a stunt.

Madscientist30

Undividual wrote: »

January wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I'm undecided on the issue.

I think that legalizing abortion would likely bring a different sub-set of problems (such as gender preference and a potential diminishment of sexual responsibility), which may be preferable to our current situation, but I do not hear discussion about any resulting social outcomes in the mainstream media.  

Which possible social outcomes concern you?

I guess the ones stated above.

I know that China and India have problems with gender-specific abortion.  There was a documentary on TG4 a few years ago which looked at the higher prevalence of sex trafficking in rural China as a result of the higher ratio of men to women / a high number of women leaving to work in urban areas.  Additionally, there is a higher rate of male homosexuality and/or bisexuality in these areas as a result of this deficit.  I don't care about sexuality, all I am saying is that there can be major social impacts for these kinds of decisions.  There's a good book called China's Little Emperors which gives more detail.  I don't see this as necessarily being a problem which would affect Ireland, though we do have citizens from those countries living here.

But the sex selection does not follow from abortion it is caused by cultural views that privilege the male over the female and in Chinas case also it was related to the One Child policy. It does not seem to be an issue in Western developed countries.

Can you link to the statistics showing that China and India have higher rates of homosexuality as a result of abortion?!

retro:electro

BabysCoffee wrote: »

This case will stay with me forever
http://www.thejournal.ie/life-support-clinically-dead-woman-judgement-1852228-Dec2014/

And it is why I will vote to repeal the 8th

Absolutely barbaric. I’m not too proud to admit I used to be pro life. But when I read cases like this I’m ashamed of myself for ever confirming to the logic that kept this poor poor woman in this state. It’s simply wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.
I don’t know how anyone can read that and still be “pro-life”. You’re not pro-life if you have no concerns about the life of the woman. You are and always will be anti-choice.
This woman couldn’t even die in peace.

Madscientist30

By the way, you are aware as well that before abortion China and similar countries used to just deal with their unwanted girls with straight-up infanticide. Been going on for millennia, look it up sometime. So abortion did not cause sex selection, it stopped infanticide.

Undividual

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.

Slightly wrong question to ask. The better question to ask is at what point can we safely say the fetus is NOT one. And then compare that to the time periods most abortions actually happen in.... and see if there is a conflict.

The starting point there would of course be, how are you defining "child". What attributes would you say make the definition or use of that particular term coherent?

That is a great question and that is where I'm stuck.  I dont know and I haven't heard a compelling argument either way on this point.  This seems to be a metaphysical grey area.  I would personally say from the 4th month of pregnancy, at a minimum.  People who are spiritually inclined seem to say from the point of conception its a child, which doesn't seem rational to me, though I guess could be correct.

baylah17

A better question would be at what point does it become ok to force a woman to carry on with an unwanted pregnancy, because that is what this is really about, the rights of women to decide for themselves about what is best for themselves

david75

Undividual wrote: »

Why would you close your mind to new information from any source?  I assume you can discern what is and isn't useful through judgment, no?

I just looked up Ben Shapiro and forgive me but I really wouldn’t be listening to him. Seems to hate just about everybody that isn’t white male and American. Certainly has problems with women gays black people and transgendered people.


But you’re undecided? I’ll take it on face Value and suggest you balance his ‘information’ with some from other more credible sources. Not on YouTube.

nozzferrahhtoo

Undividual wrote: »

I guess the ones stated above. I know that China and India have problems with gender-specific abortion.

Because they have an issue with gender. We do not. So unless one suspects that abortion, or access to abortion, CAUSED those issues with gender it is not relevant in the Irish context and would be little more than scaremongering when presented as an argument against abortion here (which one user actually has done).

Undividual wrote: »

That is a great question and that is where I'm stuck.  I dont know and I haven't heard a compelling argument either way on this point.  This seems to be a metaphysical grey area.

I think we can leave the entirely unsubstantiated nonsense of "souls in zygotes" to the religious. It has no place in a serious conversation about abortion.

For me rights and morality is in the business of mediating the well being of, and actions and choices of, conscious creatures. Therefore I feel it is TO conscious creatures we assign moral concern and rights.

The fetus being aborted (over 92% by week 12 usually and nearly 100% by week 16) is not even remotely near the stage of gestation when we might even begin to have any reason to even SUSPECT they might be on the cusp of consciousness.

Therefore I see no reason to afford it moral and ethical concern. So it is not as grey for me as it seems to be for you for that reason.

B0jangles

david75 wrote: »

I just looked up Ben Shapiro and forgive me but I really wouldn’t be listening to him. Seems to hate just about everybody that isn’t white male and American. Certainly has problems with women gays black people and transgendered people.


But you’re undecided? I’ll take it on face Value and suggest you balance his ‘information’ with some from other more credible sources. Not on YouTube.

I may be overly suspicious but I strongly suspect that was the plan all along - new poster comes in and starts name-dropping youtube 'personalities' that are surprisingly popular with US alt-right types - might convert a few of the more gullible posters.

david75

B0jangles wrote: »

I may be overly suspicious but I strongly suspect that was the plan all along - new poster comes in and starts name-dropping youtube 'personalities' that are surprisingly popular with US alt-right types - might convert a few of the more gullible posters.

Thousands of active threads on boards and somehow this thread attracts people to make their very first post. And in numbers.

Odd isn’t it?

Undividual

In relation to China/India, my point is that we may need to deal with these issues in the future.  If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the child's gender, is that right / acceptable?

Also, is consciousness the measurement of human life?  There are certainly people alive who will never be conscious again.

Undividual

B0jangles wrote: »

david75 wrote: »

I just looked up Ben Shapiro and forgive me but I really wouldn’t be listening to him. Seems to hate just about everybody that isn’t white male and American. Certainly has problems with women gays black people and transgendered people.


But you’re undecided? I’ll take it on face Value and suggest you balance his ‘information’ with some from other more credible sources. Not on YouTube.

I may be overly suspicious but I strongly suspect that was the plan all along - new poster comes in and starts name-dropping youtube 'personalities' that are surprisingly popular with US alt-right types - might convert a few of the more gullible posters.

I do not believe he is Alt-Right, but that is a useful label for dismissal of ideas.  Neither of the examples I gave were controversial or unbelievable and yet you both found the need to label me as some kind of troll. 

I am just curious about others opinions on this as I try to make my own mind up.

Undividual

Madscientist30 wrote: »

By the way, you are aware as well that before abortion China and similar countries used to just deal with their unwanted girls with straight-up infanticide. Been going on for millennia, look it up sometime. So abortion did not cause sex selection, it stopped infanticide.

To be fair, both are still practiced.

In China's Little Emperors it outlines this in occasionally horrific detail.

mzungu

Undividual wrote: »

In relation to China/India, my point is that we may need to deal with these issues in the future.  If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the child's gender, is that right / acceptable?

Also, is consciousness the measurement of human life?  There are certainly people alive who will never be conscious again.

No evidence that this is happening. You might as well say something like "If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the kind of easter eggs she ate this year, is that right / acceptable?"

dudara

Undividual - My thoughts are that this is more about the greater needs of society than personal opinions. Obviously they’re linked though. Fundamentally women, ~50% of the population, are being denied the choice of free will when pregnant. I don’t think that is correct for our society. We cannot advocate equal pay, equal opportunity etc but continue to impose the restrictions of the 8th. It’s fundamentally discriminatory.

What I would personally do is my own business. But I should have choice.

Undividual

mzungu wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

In relation to China/India, my point is that we may need to deal with these issues in the future.  If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the child's gender, is that right / acceptable?

Also, is consciousness the measurement of human life?  There are certainly people alive who will never be conscious again.

No evidence that this is happening. You might as well say something like "If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the kind of easter eggs she ate this year, is that right / acceptable?"

That seems disingenuous. 

To be clear, I didn't say that this will definitely happen.  Nor did I say that this is an argument against repealing the 8th.  My point is that in the UK, for example, certain cultural practices such as female genital mutilation were illegally practiced in the UK by people from countries where FMG is acceptable.  I am asking whether this is something that should be considered should we make abortion legal. 

Again, legalizing abortion may create different problems.  I am NOT saying that this is a reason not to repeal, just that we do not seem to get that far in the discussion.

crustybla

B0jangles wrote: »

I may be overly suspicious but I strongly suspect that was the plan all along - new poster comes in and starts name-dropping youtube 'personalities' that are surprisingly popular with US alt-right types - might convert a few of the more gullible posters.

This.

Undecided my a*se.