The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

mzungu

Undividual wrote: »

That seems disingenuous. 

To be clear, I didn't say that this will definitely happen.  Nor did I say that this is an argument against repealing the 8th.  My point is that in the UK, for example, certain cultural practices such as female genital mutilation were illegally practiced in the UK by people from countries where FMG is acceptable.  I am asking whether this is something that should be considered should we make abortion legal. 

Again, legalizing abortion may create different problems.  I am NOT saying that this is a reason not to repeal, just that we do not seem to get that far in the discussion.

There is no consensus that sex selective abortion happens in developing nations. It could be attributed to male domination in those regions leading to gender violence, boys getting vaccinated over girls etc. Hence this leads to a disparity in gender numbers and not sex selective abortion.

Sex selective abortion has not become an issue in countries with high immigration rates, so I would be very confident that it will not start to become an issue here.

crustybla

Undividual wrote: »

If a person viewed the fetus as a child, could you understand their objection?  My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.  There was a Steven Crowder youtube video where he showed a 9 month fetus/unborn scan image to a woman and (without telling her the age of the fetus/unborn) he asked if it was wrong to abort at that stage.  She said it was ok, which appears to be an emotional or ideological response than a rational one.
I understand that it is frustrating to speak on a topic where the discussion itself can make women feel like 2nd class citizens.  I feel that any opinion I give here is automatically that of a 2nd class citizen due to me being a man.

Absolutely not. Many men support repeal, and many women don't. My husband supports repeal. Some posters here are men in support of repeal. You're opinion is welcome. Though why don't you just come out and say your mind is made up, because it seems to be. I apologise if I'm wrong.

pleas advice

your opinion is welcome, if you support repeal.

Loafing Oaf

mzungu wrote: »

Sex selective abortion has not become an issue in countries with high immigration rates, so I would be very confident that it will not start to become an issue here.

Well if you have an on demand/request abortion regime as applies in nearly all liberal democracies, no-one can ever know for sure why any woman chooses to have an abortion, so I don't see much point in having a 'discussion' on the issue.

pitifulgod

pleas advice wrote: »

your opinion is welcome, if you support repeal.

In fairness, you can't expect no criticism of opinions. We're in a discussion forum, if you say something ridiculous etc. You will be called out and questioned on it.

erica74

Undividual wrote: »

I guess the ones stated above.

I know that China and India have problems with gender-specific abortion.  There was a documentary on TG4 a few years ago which looked at the higher prevalence of sex trafficking in rural China as a result of the higher ratio of men to women / a high number of women leaving to work in urban areas.  Additionally, there is a higher rate of male homosexuality and/or bisexuality in these areas as a result of this deficit.  I don't care about sexuality, all I am saying is that there can be major social impacts for these kinds of decisions.  There's a good book called China's Little Emperors which gives more detail.  I don't see this as necessarily being a problem which would affect Ireland, though we do have citizens from those countries living here.

Then why are you bringing it up?

Undividual wrote: »

In relation to China/India, my point is that we may need to deal with these issues in the future. If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the child's gender, is that right / acceptable?

Also, is consciousness the measurement of human life? There are certainly people alive who will never be conscious again.

That would be her own business. I don't care why any woman chooses to have an abortion. I care that women in Ireland do not have access to abortion here in Ireland.

Undividual

dudara wrote: »

Undividual - My thoughts are that this is more about the greater needs of society than personal opinions. Obviously they’re linked though. Fundamentally women, ~50% of the population, are being denied the choice of free will when pregnant. I don’t think that is correct for our society. We cannot advocate equal pay, equal opportunity etc but continue to impose the restrictions of the 8th. It’s fundamentally discriminatory.

What I would personally do is my own business. But I should have choice.

I understand where you're coming from and that has been my view on this issue for most of my life.  I cannot say that you are wrong.  If I was in your shoes, I would probably feel the same.  I once came out of a doctor's office and there was an anti-abortion group protesting outside.  I thought that that was a very shameful thing to do.

For me, the definition of the problem in this case is the problem (as in, is it a fetus or a child).  I think neither side agree nor will ever agree on what the problem is.

I think some of my concern for this vote stems from a lack of respectful debate on the issue.  I walked past a repeal march there a few months ago and saw a lot of very angry young women and a few too many giddy young guys (whose motives I seriously question).  I didn't feel threatened, though I did wonder what would happen if I asked the wrong question.  There was a kind of carnivalesque atmosphere, which seemed in poor taste to me, though I attributed this to the youth of the group.  In all likelihood, I'm too old and too ugly for this vote to directly affect me, but do I worry that people see only an innate right, and not any kind of responsibility.

mzungu

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well if you have an on demand/request abortion regime as applies in nearly all liberal democracies, no-one can ever know for sure why any woman chooses to have an abortion, so I don't see much point in having a 'discussion' on the issue.

Which means we can completely discard any notion of sex selective abortion. As happens in all other countries, the reasons for the abortion will remain the business of only the concerned parties, and nobody else outside of that.

Undividual

crustybla wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

If a person viewed the fetus as a child, could you understand their objection?  My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.  There was a Steven Crowder youtube video where he showed a 9 month fetus/unborn scan image to a woman and (without telling her the age of the fetus/unborn) he asked if it was wrong to abort at that stage.  She said it was ok, which appears to be an emotional or ideological response than a rational one.
I understand that it is frustrating to speak on a topic where the discussion itself can make women feel like 2nd class citizens.  I feel that any opinion I give here is automatically that of a 2nd class citizen due to me being a man.

Absolutely not. Many men support repeal, and many women don't. My husband supports repeal. Some posters here are men in support of repeal. You're opinion is welcome. Though why don't you just come out and say your mind is made up, because it seems to be. I apologise if I'm wrong.

I understand why you would say that, but my mind genuinely isn't made up.  I'm really wrestling with it over the last few weeks.  When I try to discuss it with people, I get very terse or hostile responses.

To be clear, when I said that I feel like a 2nd class citizen, I don't mean that anyone is making me feel that way, just that there is a certain unavoidable gap between my experience of life and a woman's.  I know that I will not have to live with the consequences of this vote in the same way a woman would.

crustybla

Undividual wrote: »

I guess the ones stated above.

I know that China and India have problems with gender-specific abortion.  There was a documentary on TG4 a few years ago which looked at the higher prevalence of sex trafficking in rural China as a result of the higher ratio of men to women / a high number of women leaving to work in urban areas.  Additionally, there is a higher rate of male homosexuality and/or bisexuality in these areas as a result of this deficit.  I don't care about sexuality, all I am saying is that there can be major social impacts for these kinds of decisions.  There's a good book called China's Little Emperors which gives more detail.  I don't see this as necessarily being a problem which would affect Ireland, though we do have citizens from those countries living here.

I know sexuality isn't the topic but this struck me. Major social impacts. Ireland could have a few more gay bars, oh no! Seriously, you reckon there won't be as many wimmin around if the 8th is repealed so some of the menfolk will turn gay?

You're not being picked on by the way, but have you thought about what you've posted?

dudara

Undividual wrote: »

I think some of my concern for this vote stems from a lack of respectful debate on the issue.  I walked past a repeal march there a few months ago and saw a lot of very angry young women and a few too many giddy young guys (whose motives I seriously question).  I didn't feel threatened, though I did wonder what would happen if I asked the wrong question.  There was a kind of carnivalesque atmosphere, which seemed in poor taste to me, though I attributed this to the youth of the group.  In all likelihood, I'm too old and too ugly for this vote to directly affect me, but do I worry that people see only an innate right, and not any kind of responsibility.

I would attribute this kind of behaviour to both sides, not just one. Both sides believe passionately and there will be elements of both sides that will not behave to the best of standards. Equally there will be people on both sides who will conduct themselves and their debate with decency.

Undividual

mzungu wrote: »

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well if you have an on demand/request abortion regime as applies in nearly all liberal democracies, no-one can ever know for sure why any woman chooses to have an abortion, so I don't see much point in having a 'discussion' on the issue.

Which means we can completely discard any notion of sex selective abortion. As happens in all other countries, the reasons for the abortion will remain the business of only the concerned parties, and nobody else outside of that.

If that is the case, should we also accept the social issues that that could entail, as mentioned earlier?  I am not sure of my opinion on abortion, but I am absolutely against gender specific abortion.  I think it is detrimental to society.

Mr. CooL ICE

pleas advice wrote: »

your opinion is welcome, if you support repeal.

Elaborate on this please

The_Valeyard

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Elaborate on this please

Could you not put some Nicolas Cage scary pics or meme faces with your posts? You know, in keeping with the interent traditions and stuff

Undividual

crustybla wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I guess the ones stated above.

I know that China and India have problems with gender-specific abortion.  There was a documentary on TG4 a few years ago which looked at the higher prevalence of sex trafficking in rural China as a result of the higher ratio of men to women / a high number of women leaving to work in urban areas.  Additionally, there is a higher rate of male homosexuality and/or bisexuality in these areas as a result of this deficit.  I don't care about sexuality, all I am saying is that there can be major social impacts for these kinds of decisions.  There's a good book called China's Little Emperors which gives more detail.  I don't see this as necessarily being a problem which would affect Ireland, though we do have citizens from those countries living here.

I know sexuality isn't the topic but this struck me. Major social impacts. Ireland could have a few more gay bars, oh no! Seriously, you reckon there won't be as many wimmin around if the 8th is repealed so some of the menfolk will turn gay?

You're not being picked on by the way, but have you thought about what you've posted?

It's a fair question.  My point is that it is through the intervention of many individuals that these imbalances occur over time.  The Irish birth rate is below replacement levels, which means we will either shrink as a country over time or more people will immigrate.  As such, alternative views on gender selection may become popular. 


For example, if I was raised in a country which had 55% men to 45% women, I may not have the chance to procreate.  If I was raised in a country which had 50% men and 50% women, I would have a better chance.  If I liked women slightly more than I liked men, eventually competition for women would become so intense that I would be unable to attract one and may turn to other men.  It is well documented in psychological literature that a lot of men (who do not identify as homosexual) turn to homosexuality in male dominated environments, such as prison.

I follow the Kinsey-ian view of sexuality btw, in that most people are probably repressing some homosexuality.

mzungu

Undividual wrote: »

If that is the case, should we also accept the social issues that that could entail, as mentioned earlier?  I am not sure of my opinion on abortion, but I am absolutely against gender specific abortion.  I think it is detrimental to society.

Sex selective abortion is a red herring. There is no evidence it takes place either here or abroad. Disparities between genders are most likely a result of social practices in those nations. There is also no evidence it happens in the west, only hearsay from certain groups that have a vested interest in spreading it.

As happens in all nations with abortion, the reasons are between the concerned parties and nobody else. But there is not a iota of evidence to suggest sex selective abortion is an issue.

Undividual

dudara wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

I think some of my concern for this vote stems from a lack of respectful debate on the issue.  I walked past a repeal march there a few months ago and saw a lot of very angry young women and a few too many giddy young guys (whose motives I seriously question).  I didn't feel threatened, though I did wonder what would happen if I asked the wrong question.  There was a kind of carnivalesque atmosphere, which seemed in poor taste to me, though I attributed this to the youth of the group.  In all likelihood, I'm too old and too ugly for this vote to directly affect me, but do I worry that people see only an innate right, and not any kind of responsibility.

I would attribute this kind of behaviour to both sides, not just one. Both sides believe passionately and there will be elements of both sides that will not behave to the best of standards. Equally there will be people on both sides who will conduct themselves and their debate with decency.

Yeah, you're dead right there.

erica74

Undividual wrote: »

It's a fair question.  My point is that it is through the intervention of many individuals that these imbalances occur over time.  The Irish birth rate is below replacement levels, which means we will either shrink as a country over time or more people will immigrate.  As such, alternative views on gender selection may become popular. 


For example, if I was raised in a country which had 55% men to 45% women, I may not have the chance to procreate.  If I was raised in a country which had 50% men and 50% women, I would have a better chance.  If I liked women slightly more than I liked men, eventually competition for women would become so intense that I would be unable to attract one and may turn to other men.  It is well documented in psychological literature that a lot of men (who do not identify as homosexual) turn to homosexuality in male dominated environments, such as prison.

I follow the Kinsey-ian view of sexuality btw, in that most people are probably repressing some homosexuality.

You do realise that homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with a Referendum on the 8th?

Undividual

mzungu wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

If that is the case, should we also accept the social issues that that could entail, as mentioned earlier?  I am not sure of my opinion on abortion, but I am absolutely against gender specific abortion.  I think it is detrimental to society.

Sex selective abortion is a red herring. There is no evidence it takes place either here or abroad. Disparities between genders are most likely a result of social practices in those nations. There is also no evidence it happens in the west, only hearsay from certain groups that have a vested interest in spreading it.

As happens in all nations with abortion, the reasons are between the concerned parties and nobody else. But there is not a iota of evidence to suggest it is an issue.

To be clear, you're suggesting that the ratio of men to women in China (115 to 100) is due to infanticide?  I don't see any other possibility based upon what you're saying.

pleas advice

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Elaborate on this please

any post sating 'it should be the woman's choice' won't be questioned, will be accepted as self-evidentially true, without question.
any post stating that the fetus should have some rights, or maybe not some rights, maybe not even one, not even half a right, that the fetus should have a right to life unless the mothers life is at risk, and then the mothers rights absolutely override the fetuses, will be jumped on, and the poster made feel their views are not welcome, which was my point

Undividual

erica74 wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

It's a fair question.  My point is that it is through the intervention of many individuals that these imbalances occur over time.  The Irish birth rate is below replacement levels, which means we will either shrink as a country over time or more people will immigrate.  As such, alternative views on gender selection may become popular. 


For example, if I was raised in a country which had 55% men to 45% women, I may not have the chance to procreate.  If I was raised in a country which had 50% men and 50% women, I would have a better chance.  If I liked women slightly more than I liked men, eventually competition for women would become so intense that I would be unable to attract one and may turn to other men.  It is well documented in psychological literature that a lot of men (who do not identify as homosexual) turn to homosexuality in male dominated environments, such as prison.

I follow the Kinsey-ian view of sexuality btw, in that most people are probably repressing some homosexuality.

You do realise that homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with a Referendum on the 8th?

I thought I outlined my thoughts logically.  I am not concerned about it, per se.  I am simply using gender specific abortion as an example of a potential future problem.  Repealing may have unintended negative consequences and it would be better to plan ahead, rather than realize we have problems in 20 or 30 years.

Madscientist30

Undividual wrote: »

mzungu wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

In relation to China/India, my point is that we may need to deal with these issues in the future.  If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the child's gender, is that right / acceptable?

Also, is consciousness the measurement of human life?  There are certainly people alive who will never be conscious again.

No evidence that this is happening. You might as well say something like "If a Chinese/Indian (or any) woman living in Ireland chooses to have an abortion based upon the kind of easter eggs she ate this year, is that right / acceptable?"

That seems disingenuous. 

To be clear, I didn't say that this will definitely happen.  Nor did I say that this is an argument against repealing the 8th.  My point is that in the UK, for example, certain cultural practices such as female genital mutilation were illegally practiced in the UK by people from countries where FMG is acceptable.  I am asking whether this is something that should be considered should we make abortion legal. 

Again, legalizing abortion may create different problems.  I am NOT saying that this is a reason not to repeal, just that we do not seem to get that far in the discussion.

Ahh the FGM thing again, funnily enough this is a very similar point in similar language to a previous poster that was banned....hmmmm....and here you are another newbie?

mzungu

Undividual wrote: »

To be clear, you're suggesting that the ratio of men to women in China (115 to 100) is due to infanticide?  I don't see any other possibility based upon what you're saying.

Absolutely not, I am suggesting their one-child policy a few years back resulted in the gender disparity. Those would be the social/cultural factors I was talking about. As China would be very patriarchal, boys took precedence over girls. It was ideology that caused that, nothing to do with abortion itself.

Madscientist30

Mods are all these rereg accounts also getting a vote each in the poll....everytime a new "confused undecided voter" appears the poll seems to shift a little more towards the "save" side. Might just be coincidence but....

Edward M

Undividual wrote: »

I thought I outlined my thoughts logically.  I am not concerned about it, per se.  I am simply using gender specific abortion as an example of a potential future problem.  Repealing may have unintended negative consequences and it would be better to plan ahead, rather than realize we have problems in 20 or 30 years.

I would think repeal itself has nothing to do with that issue whatsoever.
Repeal is to at least see if pregnant women can receive all the health care they need during pregnancy, even to see they can receive treatment for major illnesses that may affect them long after their baby is born.

The eighth does affect that right to treatment, if it is deemed to be detrimental to the baby.
The abortion on demand issue should be a separate issue altogether really.

eviltwin

Undividual wrote: »

I thought I outlined my thoughts logically.  I am not concerned about it, per se.  I am simply using gender specific abortion as an example of a potential future problem.  Repealing may have unintended negative consequences and it would be better to plan ahead, rather than realize we have problems in 20 or 30 years.

Well you have a few weeks to mull it over and vote accordingly but I suspect you will and always were going to vote No.

Undividual

mzungu wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

To be clear, you're suggesting that the ratio of men to women in China (115 to 100) is due to infanticide?  I don't see any other possibility based upon what you're saying.

Absolutely not, I am suggesting their one-child policy a few years back resulted in the gender disparity. Those would be the social/cultural factors I was talking about. As China would be very patriarchal, boys took precedence over girls. It was ideology that caused that, nothing to do with abortion itself.

I don't follow your logic at all.  What do you think happens with the female fetuses/babies?  Enacting the one child policy involved mass abortions, mass birth control and mass infanticide.  I assume by "boys took precedence over girls" you mean that they weren't killed?

Undividual

Madscientist30;106483205

Ahh the FGM thing again, funnily enough this is a very similar point in similar language to a previous poster that was banned....hmmmm....and here you are another newbie?

I'll check out what he said.  I was only using that as an example of the migration of unwanted cultural practices.  If the boards guys want to ban me, fair enough though I don't think I've overstepped any lines.  Its funny to me you'd assume two matching online opinions means that it must be one individual, evading detection.  I'm not quite that sad.

I'm getting a bit tired of the 'he is a new user so don't listen to him' posts.  It seems like a way of trying to discredit what I'm saying without addressing anything.

Undividual

Undividual wrote: »

If a person viewed the fetus as a child, could you understand their objection?  My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.  There was a Steven Crowder youtube video where he showed a 9 month fetus/unborn scan image to a woman and (without telling her the age of the fetus/unborn) he asked if it was wrong to abort at that stage.  She said it was ok, which appears to be an emotional or ideological response than a rational one.
I understand that it is frustrating to speak on a topic where the discussion itself can make women feel like 2nd class citizens.  I feel that any opinion I give here is automatically that of a 2nd class citizen due to me being a man.

Honestly no, when there is a medical emergency & it's save one or the other, I would always believe in saving the woman.
If it's a case of the woman needing medical treatment, I believe that she should receive the best treatment available to her, whether she is pregnant or not.

Undividual

bubblypop wrote: »

Undividual wrote: »

If a person viewed the fetus as a child, could you understand their objection?  My main doubt relates to not knowing at what point a fetus becomes a child.  There was a Steven Crowder youtube video where he showed a 9 month fetus/unborn scan image to a woman and (without telling her the age of the fetus/unborn) he asked if it was wrong to abort at that stage.  She said it was ok, which appears to be an emotional or ideological response than a rational one.
I understand that it is frustrating to speak on a topic where the discussion itself can make women feel like 2nd class citizens.  I feel that any opinion I give here is automatically that of a 2nd class citizen due to me being a man.

Honestly no, when there is a medical emergency & it's save one or the other, I would always believe in saving the woman.
If it's a case of the woman needing medical treatment, I believe that she should receive the best treatment available to her, whether she is pregnant or not.

I agree with you on both of these points.