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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    circadian wrote: »
    Why wouldn't someone trust women from England and Wales? Is there an inherent need for distrust?
    you'd need to ask those who keep asking us to 'trust women'
    ...Neither of which this thread is about. Firstly the fetus is not a baby. Secondly "on demand" is not exactly what happens. Rather people request an abortion and perhaps they are given one. They may not.

    leaving aside the fetus / baby question, under what circumstances would a woman be refused an abortion under the proposed legislation, where it will be allowed without any reason being given?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Thank you, I'm just trying to understand the logic of anti-abortionists.......no luck so far.


    Wetware bots more-or-less maybe :

    our brains rapidly and automatically process opinions we agree with as if they are facts

    https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/04/20/our-brains-rapidly-and-automatically-process-opinions-we-agree-with-as-if-they-are-facts/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    dudara wrote: »
    To explore some of this further...

    What about fertilised embryos as developed during IVF?
    Morning after pill which prevents a fertilised egg from implanting
    If abortion is wrong, why not call to prosecute and sentence women who have abortions?
    Etc

    The anti-choice side has just as many grey or fuzzy areas of logic as the pro-choice side, but they do not explore the grey areas or try to balance their priorities. If they did that, I believe their arguments would be more consistent and therefore compelling.

    BTW, I have decided to no longer refer to the “No” campaign as “pro-life”. It is conferring them with a sense of greater moral superiority than they actually possess. Many people on the pro-choice side equally value human life.

    For me it’s “pro-choice” or “anti-choice” or simply “Yes” / “No” from now on.

    Yes the term 'Pro-Life' has been hijacked by anti-abortionists and not only is it completely irrelevant to the abortion debate, it's also revoltingly smug.

    We're all pro-life aren't we, I mean the direct opposite to that is anti-life.....in which case we'd be dead, and hence not having this conversation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    gctest50 wrote: »
    Wetware bots more-or-less maybe :

    our brains rapidly and automatically process opinions we agree with as if they are facts

    https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/04/20/our-brains-rapidly-and-automatically-process-opinions-we-agree-with-as-if-they-are-facts/

    That makes sense, but I'm not blaming anti-abortionists for me not understanding them, that's a failing on my behalf.

    But that's why I'm asking questions, to try and understand their point of view....so far I'm seeing inconsistencies though, can't make sense of them yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Yes the term 'Pro-Life' has been hijacked by anti-abortionists and not only is it completely irrelevant to the abortion debate, it's also revoltingly smug.

    We're all pro-life aren't we, I mean the direct opposite to that is anti-life.....in which case we'd be dead, and hence not having this conversation.

    Pro-Life is pro the life of the mother and her unborn.
    Anti-choice is anti the right to kill the unborn just because you can.
    Pro-choice is it is up to the woman whether she lets her unborn live or not.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 397 ✭✭Blahblah2012


    That makes sense, but I'm not blaming anti-abortionists for me not understanding them, that's a failing on my behalf.

    But that's why I'm asking questions, to try and understand their point of view....so far I'm seeing inconsistencies though, can't make sense of them yet.

    abortionist = noun derogatory
    noun: abortionist; plural noun: abortionists
    a person who carries out abortions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    You can pretend that your vote has any meaning you like. It’s really simple, I even explained it in really easy to understand language but I’ll try again, as I said in the post you replied to: those abortions will happen whether you vote Yes or No. All your No vote will achieve is causing hassle for the women involved, because they need to travel to a foreign country as opposed to discussing their situation with their own local doctor in an Irish clinic.

    Really simple, but it's you, again, who fails to understand.
    Your No vote saves no babies and prevents no abortions and if you think it will you are only codding yourself.

    That's not even the point, but I suggest you have no evidence for this anyway?
    You are not being asked to endorse abortion in this referendum. You are being asked to allow women who are currently legally bound to avail of a service in a foreign country, to avail of that service here in Ireland.

    Women aren't legally bound to go to a foreign country for anything. If you think that voting to repeal the 8th isn't endorsing abortion then hopefully someone will explain it to you while I despair.
    Regarding addresses, who would bother giving their Irish address in a foreign country for a matter such as this? We all know dozens of people that live and work in the UK, if you could check in that kind of detail you’ll find friends using local UK addresses. Not that it’s any of your business.

    OMG the hassle of giving your address over someone elses! Also, because of the discounts they get.
    As for well entitled to make decisions for ourselves - LOL - why don’t you offer the women of Ireland this courtesy?!

    Because many want to terminate human lives for no good reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    But then, you're ending life by ejaculating (when not for procreation) and menstruating, surely you're against both these things no? I mean it would be pretty hypocritical if you weren't!!!

    As a matter of interest, do you believe a fetus (such as those printed on No posters around Ireland) is a baby?

    Can you explain this for me? An unfertilised egg is not a human being. A sperm that has not fertilized an egg is not a human being. An egg that has been fertilized by a sperm is a human being.
    Are you agreed?
    If so, then what is your point?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Pro-Life is pro the life of the mother and her unborn.
    Anti-choice is anti the right to kill the unborn just because you can.
    Pro-choice is it is up to the woman whether she lets her unborn live or not.

    Pro-life is pro-life though, we're all pro-life.....otherwise we'd be dead.

    Pro-choice is the right to choose.

    Anti-choice is against the right to choose.

    Why can't we keep it straight forward, pro and anti choice?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    splinter65 wrote: »
    .....,...

    An egg that has been fertilized by a sperm is a human being.

    No, it's a fertilised egg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,988 ✭✭✭circadian


    Do you trust women from England and Wales? Where there is more than one abortion for every four live births.
    circadian wrote: »
    Why wouldn't someone trust women from England and Wales? Is there an inherent need for distrust?
    you'd need to ask those who keep asking us to 'trust women'

    Absolutely no consistency or logic in your posting here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Can you explain this for me? An unfertilised egg is not a human being. A sperm that has not fertilized an egg is not a human being. An egg that has been fertilized by a sperm is a human being.
    Are you agreed?
    If so, then what is your point?

    According to previous posts a baby up to 12 weeks is not a baby but an idea of a baby, a clump of cells.Madness I know. I would love to hear from Drs that will be forced to do this.Does this not contradict their pledge not to do harm?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Can you explain this for me? An unfertilised egg is not a human being. A sperm that has not fertilized an egg is not a human being. An egg that has been fertilized by a sperm is a human being.
    Are you agreed?
    If so, then what is your point?

    No not really agreed, I don't consider a fetus to have the same status as it's mother (or father for that matter).

    But those against abortion often claim that 'life begins at conception', I'm challenging that claim on the grounds that both sperm and eggs are also alive. Do you not agree that they are alive? If you do think they are alive, then are you not against humans killing them?

    Also do you really believe a fetus is a baby?


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Pro-life is pro-life though, we're all pro-life.....otherwise we'd be dead.

    Pro-choice is the right to choose.

    Anti-choice is against the right to choose.

    Why can't we keep it straight forward, pro and anti choice?

    Some people aren't prollife and support the killing of the unborn in the womb if that is the choice of the woman.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 397 ✭✭Blahblah2012


    No not really agreed, I don't consider a fetus to have the same status as it's mother (or father for that matter).

    But those against abortion often claim that 'life begins at conception', I'm challenging that claim on the grounds that both sperm and eggs are also alive. Do you not agree that they are alive? If you do think they are alive, then are you not against humans killing them?

    Also do you really believe a fetus is a baby?


    Why don't you Google image ABORTED FETUS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Why don't you Google image ABORTED FETUS.

    Just did......and?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Some people aren't prollife and support the killing of the unborn in the womb if that is the choice of the woman.

    Some people are pro-life and are pro-choice......me for example.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 397 ✭✭Blahblah2012


    Just did......and?

    And?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    gctest50 wrote: »
    No, it's a fertilised egg

    When a human sperm has fertilized a human egg it is a human being. What kind of a being did you think it was? A cat? A pig? No honestly what is a zygote?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 397 ✭✭Blahblah2012


    I think everyone here needs to take a good look at the pictures. In fact the images should be up here for all to see


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    circadian wrote: »
    Absolutely no consistency or logic in your posting here.
    this is the context of my post,
    Trust Women.
    Presumably you will not be rushing out to seek an abortion after the 8th is repealed. The majority of women will be doing likewise.
    Do you trust women from England and Wales? Where there is more than one abortion for every four live births.

    trust women, how exactly? to have an abortion if they want / need one, and not have one if they don't want one?

    it's a nonsense phrase


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    I think everyone here needs to take a good look at the pictures

    We’ve had this argument before. You need to try harder.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    splinter65 wrote: »
    When a human sperm has fertilized a human egg it is a human being. What kind of a being did you think it was? A cat? A pig? No honestly what is a zygote?

    So they are human beings?? So anti-choice campaigners are erecting posters of naked babies across Ireland in the lead up to the referendum, that's child pornography isn't it!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    splinter65 wrote: »
    .............

    No honestly what is a zygote?

    It's a zygote

    - then take the tube and divides into a ball of cells - blastocyst


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 397 ✭✭Blahblah2012


    dudara wrote: »
    We’ve had this argument before. You need to try harder.

    This site won't allow it. You only facilitate half arsed debates


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    yes, you are well wide of the mark, a biologically separate human life begins at conception.

    Whatever about when human life begins, the right to life doesn't begin at conception. And even when it's right to life does kick in, it's secondary to other rights and freedoms (and not just the woman's right to life either).

    It's funny how that nevers causes issues for the self described pro lifers.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Pro-Life is pro the life of the mother and her unborn.

    So that means everyone who objected to legislating for the woman's right to life isn't "pro life". Which covers just about everyone currently campaigning for a No vote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    this is the context of my post,


    trust women, how exactly? to have an abortion if they want / need one, and not have one if they don't want one?

    it's a nonsense phrase

    Nice to see you admit that women sometimes need an abortion.

    Now that we have established that why would you deny women in need a medical procedure?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    I think everyone here needs to take a good look at the pictures. In fact the images should be up here for all to see

    I have to say you have a strange taste in photography, I wouldn't be advising people to look at abortion pictures!

    Maybe a nice kitten or puppy but an aborted fetus, nah, bit much now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    Some people are pro-life and are pro-choice......me for example.

    aren't we all, though? in our own way


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    This site won't allow it. You only facilitate half arsed debates

    I don't think there's anyone here that hasn't seen a 12 week old foetus


This discussion has been closed.
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