The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

amdublin

January wrote: »

GAA are sending a letter to every club secretary in the country to let them know that no events on either side are to be held on the grounds or in the clubhouses of any of the clubs from now on.

Ballyfermot issued a statement distancing themselves completely from it


(Not saying they are prochoice, just that the GAA should be no political)

pjohnson

One thing I love about living in a rural area compared to an urban one is the lack of door to door canvassers. It was so bloody annoying being pestered and turned me off voting for whatever was nagging me throughout the day.

Bridge93

Bridge93 wrote: »

Haven't been in a church since I was about 10 for anything other than funerals and the like but my parents were saying the priest in the parish where I grew up has been telling parishioners to vote on their own gut, heart and head. No preaching of what the a Catholic Church hopes for, just that voting is an entirely private matter and this is a hugely emotive topic. Go vote how you see fit.

Perhaps he's a member of ACP, as their the only reference to Catholic priests having this opinion, and they are considered dissidents from what I can see online.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Catholic_Priests

https://twitter.com/DavQuinn/status/849220673495019521


The bishops certainly are calling for a no vote from church goers but that would be as expected.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishops-call-on-parishioners-to-oppose-repeal-of-eighth-469505.html

People have their own opinions, but some will have this shaped by their religious leaders or if not religious by their personal beliefs and/or predujices and will not be swayed by regardless of what information they are presented with, hence the 'your voting for abortion on demand' and 'trust some women' posts by some people.

On the older vote, my dad is in his mid sixties and will be voting repeal, he did the same for the SSM referendum. He didn't vote in 83 as he seen it as a women's issue in his opinion, seeing what's happened since he doesn't want his daughter or granddaughter being told to head to England or just get on with it regarding FFA etc by other people who have no knowledge or care for them. He's an atheist so religious belief to contend with, just personal beliefs.

My aunt who is in her seventies and a weekly church goer is going to vote repeal, simply as in her words it's up to a woman or couple to make that decision and she believes no one takes a decision lightly in a case like abortion, and if such people do exist we can't exclude something for the majority because of the actions of a few.

In contrast a cousin in her fifties is voting no, same as she did in the SSM. She just believes it and gay marriage are wrong on both religious and personal beliefs, her husband also feels the same and are quite vocal and active in their opposition to repeal.

I think it will be a close vote, I hope it passes not because I want to see babies murdered (wait for posts from pro life poster saying I do), but so women who for what ever their reason require a termination have the choice to do so without having to travel from their own country.

I'm traveling for work for the next couple of weeks but will be back for the vote, it's an important one and have taken annual leave time to ensure I'll be here, while my wife will be out canvassing from the first week in May.

Would be interested in canvassing for Yes or helping out in some way. I'm in Dublin 15. I'm a bit concerned by the recent polls, which still look good I know, but I keep thinking back to the divorce referendum which started out with 70%+ support and ended up barely scraping through.

January

Flying Fox wrote: »

Would be interested in canvassing for Yes or helping out in some way. I'm in Dublin 15. I'm a bit concerned by the recent polls, which still look good I know, but I keep thinking back to the divorce referendum which started out with 70%+ support and ended up barely scraping through.

PM me! I'm the canvas lead for Dublin West Together for Yes so I'll give you all the info and if you can come along and help out please do.

iamwhoiam

mikemac2 wrote: »

Was out of the country the last month and was struck by the amount of posters I saw today.

All types, large, small, text, pictures, some boring and some looking to shock

A plague on both their houses, I’d like to both side banned. I must have walked or bused past hundreds of these today.

I am genuinely interested to know if any adult with a free thinking mind is ever influenced by election posters ? I just can't imagine being so unsure of my opinion to be swayed by a smiling face or a picture of a fetus in the womb ? I would really love to know if anyone is influenced by these posters ?

RobertKK

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am genuinely interested to know if any adult with a free thinking mind is ever influenced by election posters ? I just can't imagine being so unsure of my opinion to be swayed by a smiling face or a picture of a fetus in the womb ? I would really love to know if anyone is influenced by these posters ?

Not influenced by posters or canvassers.

amdublin

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am genuinely interested to know if any adult with a free thinking mind is ever influenced by election posters ? I just can't imagine being so unsure of my opinion to be swayed by a smiling face or a picture of a fetus in the womb ? I would really love to know if anyone is influenced by these posters ?

I think some of them are very impactful with strong messages.


I've seen ones saying "Trust the Women you know"
Your sister
Your daughter
Your mother


I think the Together for Yes one "Sometimes a private matter needs public support" is a great one to get people out who feel that it doesn't directly affect them so no need to vote,


And then "compassion in a crisis" is a really lovely message about stopping shaming and punishing women.

jluv

When talks of repeal first surfaced I was a definite "No" voter. I think because like others I didn't totally understand what the 8th meant. Through discussions and reading up on it I am now a definite to vote "Yes".
However if the 8th is repealed I feel that is where my dilemma will start. I'm not in agreement to abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason. But I have to separate the 2 .

January

jluv wrote: »

When talks of repeal first surfaced I was a definite "No" voter. I think because like others I didn't totally understand what the 8th meant. Through discussions and reading up on it I am now a definite to vote "Yes".
However if the 8th is repealed I feel that is where my dilemma will start. I'm not in agreement to abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason. But I have to separate the 2 .

Yessssss, someone has it. Everyone read this post. Repeal the 8th and thennnnn fight the legislation if you're not in agreement!

iamwhoiam

jluv wrote: »

When talks of repeal first surfaced I was a definite "No" voter. I think because like others I didn't totally understand what the 8th meant. Through discussions and reading up on it I am now a definite to vote "Yes".
However if the 8th is repealed I feel that is where my dilemma will start. I'm not in agreement to abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason. But I have to separate the 2 .

My thoughts too . I will vote Yes as we need legislation to change . My one worry is like yours about the 12 week any reason abortion . But that is for another day I think

RobertKK

jluv wrote: »

When talks of repeal first surfaced I was a definite "No" voter. I think because like others I didn't totally understand what the 8th meant. Through discussions and reading up on it I am now a definite to vote "Yes".
However if the 8th is repealed I feel that is where my dilemma will start. I'm not in agreement to abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason. But I have to separate the 2 .

Both come together though, because the unrestricted 12 weeks is government policy to replace the 8th amendment with.

AnneFrank

iamwhoiam wrote: »

My thoughts too . I will vote Yes as we need legislation to change . My one worry is like yours about the 12 week any reason abortion . But that is for another day I think

The horse will already have bolted

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

Both come together though, because the unrestricted 12 weeks is government policy to replace the 8th amendment with.

AnneFrank wrote: »

The horse will already have bolted

Not really, because legislation can change, and be changed a lot easier than a constitutional amendment.

amdublin

amdublin wrote: »

I think some of them are very impactful with strong messages.


I've seen ones saying "Trust the Women you know"
Your sister
Your daughter
Your mother


I think the Together for Yes one "Sometimes a private matter needs public support" is a great one to get people out who feel that it doesn't directly affect them so no need to vote,


And then "compassion in a crisis" is a really lovely message about stopping shaming and punishing women.

There will be some people who believe they should be shamed and punished, if the actions of pro life groups in other countries are anything to go by including the U.K.

https://nypost.com/2017/06/20/pro-life-protesters-threatened-to-kill-clinic-patients-workers-suit/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/abortion-uk-protests-government-urged-change-laws-clinics-vigils-a7984601.html

https://www.catholicireland.net/pro-life-activist-convicted-harassment/

RobertKK

January wrote: »

Yessssss, someone has it. Everyone read this post. Repeal the 8th and thennnnn fight the legislation if you're not in agreement!

That is the wrong way around if one wants to fight the legislation that is proposed. Some politicians even say 12 weeks is just the start.
Some Yes advocates on the together for yes campaign even say the unborn should have no protections right up to birth.

If this referendum fails we will have another referendum at some stage, it won't be 35 years times next time, it will be far far sooner, and if this is rejected this time, a more restricted abortion regime will be voted on.

The current referendum is 'trust politicians' and people like Leo Varadkar and Simon Harris who ran on pro-life grounds in their election campaigns and then present unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks and longer for other reasons.

One has to vote on what is being proposed, the only way to stop the 12 weeks unrestricted is a no vote. Anything else gives a green light to it.

jluv

RobertKK wrote: »

jluv wrote: »

When talks of repeal first surfaced I was a definite "No" voter. I think because like others I didn't totally understand what the 8th meant. Through discussions and reading up on it I am now a definite to vote "Yes".
However if the 8th is repealed I feel that is where my dilemma will start. I'm not in agreement to abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason. But I have to separate the 2 .

Both come together though, because the unrestricted 12 weeks is government policy to replace the 8th amendment with.

I know which is why I will have a personal dilemma. I still cannot vote against repeal as I care more about people who would be affected if the 8th remains in place. I really wish the two were not linked and perhaps they should be treated separately so that all get to say equally how they really feel..

January

Stop with the lies Robert, you've been called out so many times on it. If the 8th is repealed the 12 week legislation is not a guarantee. It could be shot down at the first hurdle by members of the Dail, you and I both know it you just love to scaremonger.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

That is the wrong way around if one wants to fight the legislation that is proposed. Some politicians even say 12 weeks is just the start.
Some Yes advocates on the together for yes campaign even say the unborn should have no protections right up to birth.

If this referendum fails we will have another referendum at some stage, it won't be 35 years times next time, it will be far far sooner, and if this is rejected this time, a more restricted abortion regime will be voted on.

The current referendum is 'trust politicians' and people like Leo Varadkar and Simon Harris who ran on pro-life grounds in their election campaigns and then present unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks and longer for other reasons.

One has to vote on what is being proposed, the only way to stop the 12 weeks unrestricted is a no vote. Anything else gives a green light to it.

Nope it's trust women, it's even a slogan. Haven't heard any of the repeal groups use the slogan trust politicians.

RobertKK

January wrote: »

Stop with the lies Robert, you've been called out so many times on it. If the 8th is repealed the 12 week legislation is not a guarantee. It could be shot down at the first hurdle by members of the Dail, you and I both know it you just love to scaremonger.

Stop making up I am telling lies please.

Yes people tell lies but it is ok, if one doesn't agree it is "lies".

Read what is proposed, it is not lies what I post. It is lies to make out one doesn't know what is proposed by the government.

gctest50

RobertKK wrote: »

Some politicians even say 12 weeks is just the start.

Another apocolypse post - same as this gem from this very thread :

RobertKK wrote: »

We will be living on other planets and moons, people need to expand their minds to where human civilisation is headed.
An asteroid could easily wipe out most of the planet, maybe a supervolcano causing a volcanic winter like when Mount Toba erupted roughly 75,000 years ago.
Today's population could easily be mostly wiped out by natural causes, because the Earth has a history for wiping out at a lot of life in big events, In time the world's population will be far lower and there is nothing that can stop some natural events.
Humans have all their eggs in one basket on this planet, likewise some other human lives had their eggs in a woman who is for or against an abortion as a choice and it decided their outcome.

RobertKK wrote: »

If this referendum fails we will have another referendum at some stage, it won't be 35 years times next time, it will be far far sooner,
and if this is rejected this time, a more restricted abortion regime will be voted on.

That is a really poor attempt at manipulating people

That post makes it look like you think people are thick or something

iamwhoiam

jluv wrote: »

I know which is why I will have a personal dilemma. I still cannot vote against repeal as I care more about people who would be affected if the 8th remains in place. I really wish the two were not linked and perhaps they should be treated separately so that all get to say equally how they really feel..

I have to vote Yes for all the women who need this repealed . I have to vote Yes despite my misgivings about the 12 week open door . But I have to forget my misgivings because there are women out there who desperately need my Yes vote so change can happen . I will vote Yes for my fellow citizens who need me to help them deal with tragic circumstances .

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

Stop making up I am telling lies please.

Yes people tell lies but it is ok, if one doesn't agree it is "lies".

Read what is proposed, it is not lies what I post. It is lies to make out one doesn't know what is proposed by the government.

You were mod warned for un-factual statements earlier in the thread regarding the doctors in the miss p case using her as a stunt, but so far the poster you quoted hasn't been. What lies have they and other repeal posters wrote on here in your opinion, with evidence if available?

Ave Sodalis

jluv wrote:

When talks of repeal first surfaced I was a definite "No" voter. I think because like others I didn't totally understand what the 8th meant. Through discussions and reading up on it I am now a definite to vote "Yes". However if the 8th is repealed I feel that is where my dilemma will start. I'm not in agreement to abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason. But I have to separate the 2 .

iamwhoiam wrote:

My thoughts too . I will vote Yes as we need legislation to change . My one worry is like yours about the 12 week any reason abortion . But that is for another day I think

Please feel free to disregard this post, but if this helps ease your mind about the 12 weeks, this would really help rape victims who do not want to carry their rapist's child. They do not have to go through the legal system if they are not ready for it (which would take far far longer than 12 weeks, even years), but they do not have to live with a daily reminder of their trauma if they do not want to. You cannot really legislate for rape victims as anyone can claim they are raped if their word was just taken for it, so I think this is fairest for them.

iamwhoiam

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Please feel free to disregard this post, but if this helps ease your mind about the 12 weeks, this would really help rape victims who do not want to carry their rapist's child. They do not have to go through the legal system if they are not ready for it (which would take far far longer than 12 weeks, even years), but they do not have to live with a daily reminder of their trauma if they do not want to. You cannot really legislate for rape victims as anyone can claim they are raped if their word was just taken for it, so I think this is fairest for them.

Absolutely agree which is why I have to vote to help these women and others who are carrying the burden of a dreadful tragic circumstance

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

One has to vote on what is being proposed, the only way to stop the 12 weeks unrestricted is a no vote. Anything else gives a green light to it.

Are you aware of how a law is passed in Ireland?
There is not even a bill proposed on this yet.

RobertKK

gctest50 wrote: »

Another apocolypse post






That is a really poor attempt at manipulating people

That post makes it look like you think people are thick or something

One can only vote on what is being proposed to replace it, something the Yes side try to avoid with talk of compassion, trust women, no mention of abortion on Yes posters, because they know if they were to put what the government plans to replace the 8th amendment with, it is bad for the Yes side.

I don't think people are thick, but if a person wants a clear conscience on the issue, and unrestricted abortion is an issue, then one can't really separate the issues, because currently removing the 8th amendment will lead to unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks, and longer in other cases.

If repeal wins, then we are all in the 'trust politicians' area and it is clear from some of the politicians on the yes side, who said they were pro-life and against the killing of the unborn, they are now advocating unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks. These are the kind of people one has to trust, when they enter the polling booth.

Salty

The debate on the 8th amendment has been eye-opening. I am pro-choice and will be voting yes in the upcoming referendum; I have always found it shameful that we export our "problems" overseas. The choice to terminate a pregnancy is a personal one, and currently the state has implanted itself firmly in our wombs where it does not belong!

I was not aware about the implications of the 8th on female healthcare. That has been enlightening for me. I am 25 and I must say, I would be afraid to fall pregnant under current conditions. Ireland is not a safe place to be a pregnant woman. I am hopeful this will change.

RobertKK

bubblypop wrote: »

Are you aware of how a law is passed in Ireland?
There is not even a bill proposed on this yet.

Proposed legislation is based on the Dail committee which recommended 12 weeks unrestricted and longer in other cases.

Ave Sodalis

RobertKK wrote: »

One can only vote on what is being proposed to replace it, something the Yes side try to avoid with talk of compassion, trust women, no mention of abortion on Yes posters, because they know if they were to put what the government plans to replace the 8th amendment with, it is bad for the Yes side.

I don't think people are thick, but if a person wants a clear conscience on the issue, and unrestricted abortion is an issue, then one can't really separate the issues, because currently removing the 8th amendment will lead to unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks, and longer in other cases.

If repeal wins, then we are all in the 'trust politicians' area and it is clear from some of the politicians on the yes side, who said they were pro-life and against the killing of the unborn, they are now advocating unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks. These are the kind of people one has to trust, when they enter the polling booth.

The 8th will be replaced with:
“Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies.”