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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #8192
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Edward M wrote: »
    I was talking to a couple of young lads at the weekend, at football, we are looking at losing a few students from our teams locally for the summer.
    They're off on their J1 for the summer, 2 are off on the 18th of may, where my wife works a couple of part time student girls are off at around the same time, well before the poll, I wonder how many will students will actually be gone before the day?

    It's only 3 days later than the marriage referendum which had a big student turnout.


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    #8193
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,978 ✭✭✭circadian


    applehunter wrote: »
    He continues to play a blinder.

    He should be pissing off people considering the stance his is taking. That is the nature of a contentious issue.

    The guy knows his stuff and will argue with anyone..

    Aye he'd argue with a lampost if given the chance, that's for certain.

    He hasn't a clue what he's on about half the time and it's all just to boost his ego. His continual flip flopping during his university politics days show that despite being an all round eejit he'd shift parties and policies quicker than rats off a sinking ship.

    I can guarantee he believes little, if any, of this ****e he is spouting off and if the 8th is repealed wait for his implosion and seperation from the Save the 8th movement.

    His head will pop up again, I'm sure of it and I'd be curious what his manifesto will be then. I just hope everyone remembers this campaign when he does.


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    #8194
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mikeecho wrote: »
    I think that this is a non issue.
    It's all about personal choice ,personal responsibly, and medical responsibility.

    No-one will be forced to have an abortion.

    It will be performed by consent.

    Consent... Consent by the woman carrying the fetus/child

    Personal choice. Personal freedom.

    The world isn't going to end because of this, no-one is forcing any one to have an abortion.

    Vote whatever way you like,
    But it's important that you vote.

    No point in being a keyboard warrior.

    voter-early-vote-often.png

    Jaysus. What about those who think it's murder. Far from a non issue


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    #8195
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,994 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Jaysus. What about those who think it's murder. Far from a non issue
    What about those who think they are an onion.
    People can think they are whatever they want, but it doesn't change reality.


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    #8196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ELM327 wrote: »
    What about those who think they are an onion.
    People can think they are whatever they want, but it doesn't change reality.

    I'd say they are wrong personally. It's essentially a philosophical debate about when a human becomes a human. There's good reason why people all over the world still protest either side of this. I'm all for voting yes but belittling the argument and claiming its a non-issue is niave at best.


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    #8197
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Its a huge issue for those directly affected by the 8th.
    Saying its a non issues disrespects the effects the 8th has had and will continue to have on the lives and health of women if it is not repealed.


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    #8198
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,081 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    You think he's obnoxious and argumentative now, wait until No loses. His real joy is attacking everyone on his own side in the aftermath.
    You mean like calling his own candidate a psychotic bitch? Classy!


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    #8199
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    ELM327 wrote: »
    What about those who think they are an onion.

    Even they likely have several layers to their issue.

    Sorry, could not stop myself. Brings a tear to my eye.

    But yes I think it is a large issue really. It comes right down to A) What it actually means to be human and B) what it is we should value as humans.

    For me I think it should revolve around sentience. What it means to be human revolves around that. And what we should value, and be concerned with when we deal with rights, morality, and ethics.... is mediating the actions of, and well being of, sentient creatures.

    As the fetus at 12/16 weeks is not even remotely a sentient entity, abortion is not a moral issue for me. But I recognize many people have not put in the introspection, or reached the same conclusions from that introspection, as I have. Which makes it an issue.


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    #8200
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    gmisk wrote: »
    You mean like calling his own candidate a psychotic bitch? Classy!

    I just dont dont understand why Applehunter is such a fan of a person who is so rude, agressive and obnoxious.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8201
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    applehunter wrote: »
    He continues to play a blinder.

    He should be pissing off people considering the stance his is taking. That is the nature of a contentious issue.

    The guy knows his stuff and will argue with anyone.

    The YES side on the other hand don't seem to have to answer to anyone.

    Public debates ASAP, please.

    If the dictionary definition of "insufferable" somehow manifested as a corporeal, anthropomorphic being, it would be indistinguishable from McGuirk.


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    #8202
    Nettle Soup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Jaysus. What about those who think it's murder. Far from a non issue
    What about those who think they are an onion.
    People can think they are whatever they want, but it doesn't change reality.
    What happens when you peel the onion?


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    #8203
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I am beginning to think he knows pro life is losing and he is trying to rally the base in order to get a no vote as high as possible.

    That's probably the most likely scenario. The only alternatives I can think of are a) he's a 12th level genius and this is all part of some elaborate plan that no one else can see, or b) he's lost the plot entirely.
    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Kinda hilarious in ways that someone who encouraged safe digital sex with gloves about 15 years ago while involved in student politics is so extremely anti student and illiberal on sex now. He made his name in student politics. Now he wants to f*ck students over.

    I bet he doesn't bring that up on the doorstep during canvasses :D


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    #8204
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What about those who think it's murder.

    They are wrong - this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Murder is an entirely different crime than abortion*.

    (*) in Ireland, but not abortion for Irish women in England, which is not a crime at all but a Constitutional right.


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    #8205
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,994 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'd say they are wrong personally. It's essentially a philosophical debate about when a human becomes a human. There's good reason why people all over the world still protest either side of this. I'm all for voting yes but belittling the argument and claiming its a non-issue is niave at best.
    It is a non issue.
    The 8th is like the laws in the middle east, imposing a culture observed by some, and in the case of the 8th a minority (less than 30% if polls are to be believed), on all others.

    Have your own morality. Hell, don't even drink or smoke or drive fast or leave the house. Go to Church every morning. Give half your wages to charity. Do whatever floats your boat. But don't enforce it on society at large and endanger the health of women everywhere to do so - at the cost of your supposed morality.

    This is why I have such an issue with the NO side being called pro life. They are not pro life, they are pro birth. It doesn't matter if they enforce death on a mother of 3 - once the child is born that's all that matters.

    I'm cautiously optimistic of a yes vote at this stage but polls as we know cannot be trusted. I'm also cautious of the militant side of the repeal side too. I'm about as far for repeal as is logically possible, yet I was chased out of the facebook group for saying that a women's partner should be involved in the decision if there was a relationship. Similar to any large decision in a relationship which affects one party more than the other. Angry hairy feminists are more damaging to the yes campaign than anything else tbh and once that sort of ridiculousness is kept out of the campaign we should have abortions safe free and legal in the near future.

    #trustourwomen
    #repealthe8th
    #togetherforyes


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    #8206
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    ELM327 wrote: »
    It I'm also cautious of the militant side of the repeal side too. I'm about as far for repeal as is logically possible, yet I was chased out of the facebook group for saying that a women's partner should be involved in the decision if there was a relationship. Similar to any large decision in a relationship which affects one party more than the other. Angry hairy feminists are more damaging to the yes campaign than anything else tbh and once that sort of ridiculousness is kept out of the campaign we should have abortions safe free and legal in the near future.
    I'm a bit concerned that you feel "attacked" like that, elm (I don't know anything about the incident except what you've said just now, just to be clear) but it's such an emotional issue that there can be a massive gap and misunderstandings over quite strange issues sometimes.

    Just to take your example, I'd agree completely that a partner is always going to be part of any decision, but the question is if whether they should have a legal position, because that would be really problematic.

    Because when it comes down to it, if the partner's legal right is limited to being informed, that's one thing (though what if he's not the father?) but if you mean he has a right to have a say, then how exactly is that right going to be exercised? By tying the woman down so she can't abort? Or indeed by tying her down so an abortion can carried out against her wishes? Or do you see this right as only a one way thing, where the partner would want to stop the woman? That isn't always the case, IMO.

    And yet I can see how it seems, intuitively, correct that the partner should have a say. But it's nothing like buying a car or even changing jobs, it's the woman's body, and it's hard to see how that can be legally given into the control of someone else.

    It's one reason why the repeal side is probably not in the (with hindsight) easier position of the Marref campaigners, because it's just not a simple position to get across, and perhaps there is no equivalent feelgood factor either. But we can't go adding things in that would inevitably lead to the sorts of abuses we have actually seen with the current laws, just because it seems like a good way to reassure the undecided.


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    #8207
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭optogirl


    ELM327 wrote: »
    It is a non issue.
    The 8th is like the laws in the middle east, imposing a culture observed by some, and in the case of the 8th a minority (less than 30% if polls are to be believed), on all others.

    Have your own morality. Hell, don't even drink or smoke or drive fast or leave the house. Go to Church every morning. Give half your wages to charity. Do whatever floats your boat. But don't enforce it on society at large and endanger the health of women everywhere to do so - at the cost of your supposed morality.

    This is why I have such an issue with the NO side being called pro life. They are not pro life, they are pro birth. It doesn't matter if they enforce death on a mother of 3 - once the child is born that's all that matters.

    I'm cautiously optimistic of a yes vote at this stage but polls as we know cannot be trusted. I'm also cautious of the militant side of the repeal side too. I'm about as far for repeal as is logically possible, yet I was chased out of the facebook group for saying that a women's partner should be involved in the decision if there was a relationship. Similar to any large decision in a relationship which affects one party more than the other. Angry hairy feminists are more damaging to the yes campaign than anything else tbh and once that sort of ridiculousness is kept out of the campaign we should have abortions safe free and legal in the near future.

    #trustourwomen
    #repealthe8th
    #togetherforyes

    Angry hairy feminists? FFS


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    #8208
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    I can see the point being made. The extremes on both sides are hurting both campaigns, somewhat.


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    #8209
    garbo speaks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 300 ✭✭garbo speaks


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Murder is an entirely different crime than abortion.

    Nonsense.


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    #8210
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    garbo speaks wrote: »
    Nonsense.


    can you point to your source on this?


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    #8211
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    garbo speaks wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    That's your only rebuttal? Abortion is not murder if it was it would be illegal everywhere like actual murder is.


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    #8212
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    garbo speaks wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    Something you are an expert in

    Posting Nonsense:mad:


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    #8213
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    A lot of older people who voted yes to insert the 8th amendment are now voting yes to repeal it. Because they have seen the impact

    I was a first year university student then, though I didn't actually vote (wasn't registered in the right place for various reasons) but at the time I was really quite unsure anyway, and would quite possibly have voted yes, because that's how we had been brought up, we had SPUC coming into schools with awful videos and we were given little badges in the shape of tiny cute little feet - does anyone else remember those?

    I think younger people now don't realize the degree of brainwashing the whole country was complicit in. It took me years, and some hard knocks, to realize that that is what it really was.

    I think - I hope - that a lot of people my age and slightly older will have a very different mindset to their views back in 1983.

    I think the risk of a no vote may be more among younger people who haven't yet been confronted with all the terrible effects of the 8th on pregnancy care in general, may be influenced by US-funded prolife marketing of abortion as being nothing but a kind of birth control for the lazy and promiscuous, when in fact the problem in Ireland is much wider.

    I really hope I'm wrong, and that all age groups have matured and moved on.


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    #8214
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod-Garbo speaks do not post in this thread again. Reason- Refusing to engage and general dickery.


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    #8215
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    I can see the point being made. The extremes on both sides are hurting both campaigns, somewhat.

    What worries me is what is the "extreme" on the pro choice side?
    (I mean the real extreme, not the made-up "abortion until 5 minutes before birth because the woman wants promotion at work" extreme that the prolife side likes to portray)

    I can't see one, so unless I'm the extreme (and I probably am but then I don't think I'm extreme at all, is the point) it worries me that people can't see that pro choice is, in reality, the middle ground between forced abortion and forced pregnancy.


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    #8216
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    They are wrong - this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Murder is an entirely different crime than abortion*.

    (*) in Ireland, but not abortion for Irish women in England, which is not a crime at all but a Constitutional right.
    murder
    ˈməːdə/
    noun
    noun: murder; plural noun: murders
    1.
    the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

    If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder


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    #8217
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 33,081 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I think the risk of a no vote may be more among younger people who haven't yet been confronted with all the terrible effects of the 8th on pregnancy care in general, may be influenced by US-funded prolife marketing of abortion as being nothing but a kind of birth control for the lazy and promiscuous, when in fact the problem in Ireland is much wider.
    All the polls etc point to the complete opposite with young people 18-24 being most likely to vote for repeal.

    Edit.
    As per Irish Times poll.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/irish-times-poll-public-favour-repeal-of-eighth-despite-slip-in-support-1.3467503
    Support for repeal is strongest among younger voters (67 per cent among 18-24-year-olds; 58 per cent among 25-34-year-olds)


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    #8218
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #8219
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder


    Murder is a matter of fact not a matter of opinion. Abortion is not murder. If it was the law would treat both the same. It doesn't


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    #8220
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

    Then please, feel free to never have an abortion yourself.
    But don't assume you should be able to inflict those morals and beliefs on the whole of society, at the expense of women's health and substandard maternity care.
    We don't all agree and shouldn't be restricted by other people's opinions.


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    #8221
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

    You can believe what you like, but the law doesent agree with you even now!


This discussion has been closed.
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