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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #8312
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its now at 5 in total
    Plus legal cases of
    Miss X, Miss A, Miss B, Miss C, Miss D, Amanda Mellett, Siobhan Whelan, Miss P, Miss Y

    And then of course the deaths of
    Sheila Hodgers, Savita Halapanavar, Bimbo Onanuga


    ah give me a break i just thought of the 2 most obvious ones :)

    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    If the 8th is such a success how come all these cases ended up in the courts and all these women died?

    Completely agree. the poster who thought otherwise hasnt really given this much thought at all.


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    #8313
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You might need to take step back. Yes is also using emotional blackmail. Yes is also aggressive and forceful. You're possibly entrenched in your beliefs.

    You only need to look at the hyperbolic incorrect posters from the No side, to see that you cannot even compare the two.

    There will be a day where the No voters will be glad people like me voted Yes for people like them.
    They are so obsessed with their morals and opinions on the matter they fail to realise the real world tragic situations they are forcing on other people's wives, daughters, and mothers.
    When a crisis pregnancy knocks on their door they will then be glad that the 8th was repealed.
    I am very confident in my beliefs and will make no apologies for that, it doesn't change the fact that the No side is using bully tactics to get their point across.


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    #8314
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    professore wrote: »
    That was my opinion on what they said. Another one of these idiots that likes winning an argument. Nice strawman.

    You weren't giving your opinion, you said the referendum commission said it was likely to fail:
    professore wrote: »
    This is very likely to fail too. The Referendum Commission said so themselves.

    And drop the insults. They do nothing more than highlight your lack of an argument.
    professore wrote: »
    This isn't untrue. Other than the 8th not being in the constitution, no one really knows what the position will be. Quoting from the Indo article:

    We know the 8th will be replaced. We know the Oireachtas will legislate. We know they will change the law. We know the final legislation won't go beyond what's been proposed by the government.

    There's a lot we know and can be certain about without there ever having to be a constitutional provision.


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    #8315
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    It's all grand lads, the 8th will be repealed and the likes of the Healy Raes will stand up in the Dail and vote for liberal abortion laws and promptly lose their seats in the next election.

    And if you want to find out what the Referendum Commission said, go off and do your own research. I'll do mine and make up my own mind.

    Over and out.


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    #8316
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    professore wrote: »
    No of course I'm not. Could put in a proviso for that too. However would have to be serious health consequences, not stretch marks for example. This is where legislation could step in. As I said it could definitely be done to put this in the constitution. All academic at this point anyway.

    Its this kind of talk that gets peoples backs up.
    Pray tell, what kind of women do you associate with in real life if you presume one would seek an abortion on the grounds of not wanting stretch marks?

    You are being extremely dismissive of the struggles, suffering, distress and health issues that women go through when seeking a termination, regardless of the reason they are doing it.


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    #8317
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    professore wrote: »
    It's all grand lads, the 8th will be repealed and the likes of the Healy Raes will stand up in the Dail and vote for liberal abortion laws and promptly lose their seats in the next election.

    And if you want to find out what the Referendum Commission said, go off and do your own research. I'll do mine and make up my own mind.

    Over and out.
    Right. So basically you cant stand over comment that the referendum commission said this referendum is likely to fail. No need to go off in a huff cause you made misleading statements that have no proof.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8318
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    so already your proposed amendment is unmanageable. you cant use a phrase like "Serious health consequences" in the constitution without defining it. So you would end up with a long list of medical conditions in the constitution? can you see now why this was not proposed?

    Jesus you are unbelievable. I'm not a supreme court judge putting up a constitutional amendment. The point is that you put in basic rights and then legislate around the rest. That's the whole point of the constitution!


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    #8319
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Its this kind of talk that gets peoples backs up.
    Pray tell, what kind of women do you associate with in real life if you presume one would seek an abortion on the grounds of not wanting stretch marks?

    You are being extremely dismissive of the struggles, suffering, distress and health issues that women go through when seeking a termination, regardless of the reason they are doing it.

    Keep going, you are convincing me more and more to vote No.


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    #8320
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Right. So basically you cant stand over comment that the referendum commission said this referendum is likely to fail. No need to go off in a huff cause you made misleading statements that have no proof.

    No it was badly phrased. Here's what they actually say:
    If a majority votes Yes, the current law, including the law on travel and information, will remain in place unless and until it is changed by new law or is declared invalid by the courts.


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    #8321
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    professore wrote: »
    Keep going, you are convincing me more and more to vote No.
    Let's be honest, that was your intention anyway but you - like Robert, Anne, and all the others of similar ilk, you just fancied a bit of a set to about it.

    Perhaps you were annoyed at the 28% poll result?


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    #8322
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    professore wrote: »
    Keep going, you are convincing me more and more to vote No.

    Just shows really you never had any intention of voting Yes. I'm not here to convince you.

    And if you would vote No just to spite some random stranger on the internet to get some phantom one up on them, that says more about you than anyone else. And will no doubt convince other people to vote Yes.
    So keep going.


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    #8323
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    professore wrote: »
    Keep going, you are convincing me more and more to vote No.

    Do you really choose how to vote based on such childish reasoning? And you with adult daughters who'll have to live with the consequences of retaining the 8th :rolleyes:


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    #8324
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,074 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    professore wrote: »
    No it was badly phrased. Here's what they actually say:

    It wasnt what you said.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8325
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Do you really choose how to vote based on such childish reasoning? And you with adult daughters who'll have to live with the consequences of retaining the 8th :rolleyes:
    Don't worry, if the last bastion of catholic ireland somehow manage to win this one there will be another referendum.
    The European Court of Human Rights (not to mention Amnesty International) have told Ireland that our abortion laws are barbaric. So it can't remain in situ for much longer.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-abortion-laws-breach-human-rights-court-rules-1.868902


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    #8326
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    professore wrote: »
    Yeah well Zubeneschamali seemed to think I was making stuff up.

    I said no such thing; if you were making things up, I would expect you'd make up something that makes sense.

    It was pointed out that the 8th failed - it was supposed to copperfasten our ban on abortion, and instead it made abortion legal here for the first time.

    You said: There was no problem with same sex marriage? This is very likely to fail too. The Referendum Commission said so themselves. Basically no one really knows what the position will be after the 8th is repealed.

    This is not just wrong, it is utter bollocks. The Commission said no such thing, we know precisely what the position will be, and the Referendum wording is based on the recommendations of the Citizen's Assembly rather than the Oireachteas Committee precisely to give total clarity.

    If you don't know the difference between their recommendations, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.


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    #8327
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    You only need to look at the hyperbolic incorrect posters from the No side, to see that you cannot even compare the two.

    There will be a day where the No voters will be glad people like me voted Yes for people like them.
    They are so obsessed with their morals and opinions on the matter they fail to realise the real world tragic situations they are forcing on other people's wives, daughters, and mothers.
    When a crisis pregnancy knocks on their door they will then be glad that the 8th was repealed.
    I am very confident in my beliefs and will make no apologies for that, it doesn't change the fact that the No side is using bully tactics to get their point across.

    One could argue that all of this is emotional blackmail too.

    Fair play for having such confidence in your beliefs. I think you should consider that maybe you aren't being as tolerant of everyone's beliefs as you think you are though. It's a trap I see a lot of left leaning folk falling into too easily.

    Look I'm completely on the same side as far as this vote is going to go. I'm just not fully onboard with all of the arguments that the Yes vote put forward and, dare I say, are somewhat smug in their beliefs.

    "My body, my choice" for example. I believe that at conception a potential life is created. I think we can all agree on that? Key word being potential. A second entity comes into existence that is entirely dependent on its host for survival. That potential life is being snuffed out when it is aborted. And I am completely okay with that, on demand. When I'm confronted with people claiming I'm supporting murder of the unborn, I say fine. If they want to phrase it like, so be it. It's arguably the harsh reality of what it is. If you want to chop off your finger, it's your body, so it is your choice. Your finger won't eventually grow into its own sentient being. To simplify pregnancy as the same thing is short sighted imo.

    I know you didn't make that exact argument but its been bothering me for sometime and what better thread to rant in.


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    #8328
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »
    One could argue that all of this is emotional blackmail too.

    Fair play for having such confidence in your beliefs. I think you should consider that maybe you aren't being as tolerant of everyone's beliefs as you think you are though. It's a trap I see a lot of left leaning folk falling into too easily.

    Look I'm completely on the same side as far as this vote is going to go. I'm just not fully onboard with all of the arguments that the Yes vote put forward and, dare I say, are somewhat smug in their beliefs.

    "My body, my choice" for example. I believe that at conception a potential life is created. I think we can all agree on that? Key word being potential. A second entity comes into existence that is entirely dependent on its host for survival. That potential life is being snuffed out when it is aborted. And I am completely okay with that, on demand. When I'm confronted with people claiming I'm supporting murder of the unborn, I say fine. If they want to phrase it like, so be it. It's arguably the harsh reality of what it is. If you want to chop off your finger, it's your body, so it is your choice. Your finger won't eventually grow into its own sentient being. To simplify pregnancy as the same thing is short sighted imo.

    I know you didn't make that exact argument but its been bothering me for sometime and what better thread to rant in.

    why do you assume pro-choice people are "left leaning"?


  • Options
    #8329
    Smertrius
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Smertrius


    you lot are voting no you want a woman or women who told by their doctor their baby going die or its dead in the womb you her or them to suffer for nine months without abortion


  • Options
    #8330
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Deleted User wrote: »
    One could argue that all of this is emotional blackmail too.

    Fair play for having such confidence in your beliefs. I think you should consider that maybe you aren't being as tolerant of everyone's beliefs as you think you are though. It's a trap I see a lot of left leaning folk falling into too easily.

    Look I'm completely on the same side as far as this vote is going to go. I'm just not fully onboard with all of the arguments that the Yes vote put forward and, dare I say, are somewhat smug in their beliefs.

    "My body, my choice" for example. I believe that at conception a potential life is created. I think we can all agree on that? Key word being potential. A second entity comes into existence that is entirely dependent on its host for survival. That potential life is being snuffed out when it is aborted. And I am completely okay with that, on demand. When I'm confronted with people claiming I'm supporting murder of the unborn, I say fine. If they want to phrase it like, so be it. It's arguably the harsh reality of what it is. If you want to chop off your finger, it's your body, so it is your choice. Your finger won't eventually grow into its own sentient being. To simplify pregnancy as the same thing is short sighted imo.

    I know you didn't make that exact argument but its been bothering me for sometime and what better thread to rant in.

    Its not emotional blackmail. Its the truth. The reality is that keeping the 8th forces other families into horrible situations.
    And its unbearably selfish to vote No, because substandard maternity care should not be collateral damage so that a small subset of society can proudly declare that Ireland is an abortion free country.


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    #8331
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    professore wrote: »

    Over and out.
    If only


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    #8332
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Just shows really you never had any intention of voting Yes. I'm not here to convince you.

    And if you would vote No just to spite some random stranger on the internet to get some phantom one up on them, that says more about you than anyone else. And will no doubt convince other people to vote Yes.
    So keep going.

    Actually I have every intention of voting yes. I am an atheist and religious thinking doesn't enter my worldview. I agree with the findings of the Oireachtas committee on abortion.

    All I've gotten here is lots of insults and being accused of insulting others for simply stating some opinions, of hating women and wanting to see them suffer even though I said no such thing and find it disgusting and abhorrent. For someone who agrees with you but maybe questions the methodology of getting it accepted. Hell I didn't even want you to agree with me - just wanted some constructive debate.

    And yet you claim to be tolerant of others views and the bigots are reserved for the No side. Sorry guys you are just as bad. Never have I seen such a polarised thread on Boards. I'm just wasting my time here. Now I'm really out.


  • Options
    #8333
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    professore wrote: »
    No it was badly phrased. Here's what they actually say:

    Even with poor phrasing, for the life of me I can't see how someone interprets:
    If a majority votes Yes, the current law, including the law on travel and information, will remain in place unless and until it is changed by new law or is declared invalid by the courts.

    as
    professore wrote: »
    This is very likely to fail too. The Referendum Commission said so themselves. Basically no one really knows what the position will be after the 8th is repealed.

    :confused::confused:


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    #8334
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    One could argue that all of this is emotional blackmail too.

    Fair play for having such confidence in your beliefs. I think you should consider that maybe you aren't being as tolerant of everyone's beliefs as you think you are though. It's a trap I see a lot of left leaning folk falling into too easily.

    Look I'm completely on the same side as far as this vote is going to go. I'm just not fully onboard with all of the arguments that the Yes vote put forward and, dare I say, are somewhat smug in their beliefs.

    "My body, my choice" for example. I believe that at conception a potential life is created. I think we can all agree on that? Key word being potential. A second entity comes into existence that is entirely dependent on its host for survival. That potential life is being snuffed out when it is aborted. And I am completely okay with that, on demand. When I'm confronted with people claiming I'm supporting murder of the unborn, I say fine. If they want to phrase it like, so be it. It's arguably the harsh reality of what it is. If you want to chop off your finger, it's your body, so it is your choice. Your finger won't eventually grow into its own sentient being. To simplify pregnancy as the same thing is short sighted imo.

    I know you didn't make that exact argument but its been bothering me for sometime and what better thread to rant in.

    why do you assume pro-choice people are "left leaning"?

    You're being deliberately obtuse. Do I really need to spell this out.

    Traditionally the world over, conservative types are pro life. I'd presume that it follows that more liberal types would be pro choice. This is a huge generalisatin but I don't think I'm wrong.


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    #8335
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    professore wrote: »
    Keep going, you are convincing me more and more to vote No.

    Nope. Nobody is buying that. You know full well how you are going to vote, you are very clearly entrenched in it. But when someone posts about how voting No hurts and endangers so many real people you try to make them stop by pretending they are only achieving the opposite of what they hope. It's a well worn tactic and we all see through it.


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    #8336
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    why do you assume pro-choice people are "left leaning"?
    I'm actually extremely right wing.
    But as part of being fiscally right wing (low government involvement, low tax, low healthcare and social welfare cover etc) I carry that over and am also in favour of low (or no) government involvement in social issues. A bit of lassez faire, if you will.


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    #8337
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You're being deliberately obtuse. Do I really need to spell this out.

    Traditionally the world over, conservative types are pro life. I'd presume that it follows that more liberal types would be pro choice. This is a huge generalisatin but I don't think I'm wrong.
    ELM327 wrote: »
    I'm actually extremely right wing.
    But as part of being fiscally right wing (low government involvement, low tax, low healthcare and social welfare cover etc) I carry that over and am also in favour of low (or no) government involvement in social issues. A bit of lassez faire, if you will.

    ELM327 got there before me.


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    #8338
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    iguana wrote: »
    Nope. Nobody is buying that. You know full well how you are going to vote, you are very clearly entrenched in it. But when someone posts about how voting No hurts and endangers so many real people you try to make them stop by pretending they are only achieving the opposite of what they hope. It's a well worn tactic and we all see through it.

    How about this then - the Catholic Church are a bunch of rapists and paedophile enablers who should have no say in how people live their lives - do you think I'd say that if I was from the Iona institute?

    Think what you want about me. I don't fit in any of your neat boxes.


  • Options
    #8339
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,992 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    professore wrote: »
    How about this then - the Catholic Church are a bunch of rapists and paedophile enablers who should have no say in how people live their lives - do you think I'd say that if I was from the Iona institute?

    Think what you want about me. I don't fit in any of your neat boxes.
    That's a fact though, not opinion.


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    #8340
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Anecdote versus generalisation


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    #8341
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    How about this then - the Catholic Church are a bunch of rapists and paedophile enablers who should have no say in how people live their lives - do you think I'd say that if I was from the Iona institute?

    Think what you want about me. I don't fit in any of your neat boxes.

    well you already posted the post below which makes you questionable at best.
    professore wrote: »
    Keep going, you are convincing me more and more to vote No.


This discussion has been closed.
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