The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Zubeneschamali

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Euthanasia: "If your mother had an abortion like a responsible citizen, you wouldn't be looking for euthanasia today!"

Gender neutral toilets: "..." Nope, i can't see how to work abortion into that one.

Zubeneschamali

Unlike those other cases, I think the prolife crew will not vanish completely - they will hold the odd vigil, march, novena or protest, but we won't see them on the political stage again.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

You believe everything the Yes side puts out?

Yes or no?

Still waiting for a reply, Robert. Lies from the Yes campaign, please, not opinions from individual posters on this thread. The, far from comprehensive, list up thread is lies from official No canvassers and on posters. I could edit it to include the anti-choice ‘counselling’ services for crisis pregnancies if you like.

On a side note, I have been hearing of street harassment from people on anti-repeal stalls and leafleting campaigns, as well as doorstwpping children with graphic stories of abortion. Has anyone one witnessed this themselves?

robarmstrong

kylith wrote: »

Still waiting for a reply, Robert. Lies from the Yes campaign, please, not opinions from individual posters on this thread. The, far from comprehensive, list up thread is lies from official No canvassers and on posters. I could edit it to include the anti-choice ‘counselling’ services for crisis pregnancies if you like.

On a side note, I have been hearing of street harassment from people on anti-repeal stalls and leafleting campaigns, as well as doorstwpping children with graphic stories of abortion. Has anyone one witnessed this themselves?

I thought that was gas, you confront them with the lies told and they go on to say well it's their opinion that it's truth.

Some pro-lifers were door-to-door in my parents area yesterday and I just happened to answer the door, listened to their spiel and told them about my partner and her medical issues. I asked what should she do, continually miscarry because the 8th does not allow her access to legal abortion or fly to England to have the procedure done there.

They responded by asking if we had considered ceasing attempts to get pregnant. Just very slowly closed the door in the face after that, couldn't comprehend that amount of stupidity all of a sudden.

amcalester

robarmstrong wrote: »

I thought that was gas, you confront them with the lies told and they go on to say well it's their opinion that it's truth.

Some pro-lifers were door-to-door in my parents area yesterday and I just happened to answer the door, listened to their spiel and told them about my partner and her medical issues. I asked what should she do, continually miscarry because the 8th does not allow her access to legal abortion or fly to England to have the procedure done there.

They responded by asking if we had considered ceasing attempts to get pregnant. Just very slowly closed the door in the face after that, couldn't comprehend that amount of stupidity all of a sudden.

I said earlier in this thread that the lack of empathy being shown by some on the No side is astounding, here is another example.

ELM327

amcalester wrote: »

I said earlier in this thread that the lack of empathy being shown by some on the No side is astounding, here is another example.

With 28% approval ratings they have to resort to "Sky is falling in" drastic tactics.:D

SusieBlue

robarmstrong wrote: »

I thought that was gas, you confront them with the lies told and they go on to say well it's their opinion that it's truth.

Some pro-lifers were door-to-door in my parents area yesterday and I just happened to answer the door, listened to their spiel and told them about my partner and her medical issues. I asked what should she do, continually miscarry because the 8th does not allow her access to legal abortion or fly to England to have the procedure done there.

They responded by asking if we had considered ceasing attempts to get pregnant. Just very slowly closed the door in the face after that, couldn't comprehend that amount of stupidity all of a sudden.

Having read some of the replies to your story here on Boards on various threads, the impression I get from the No side is that they're sorry for your troubles, but they see your struggles and trauma as "worth it" to "keep abortion out of Ireland".

People like you are collateral damage, I'm sure they aren't monsters in that they do think what your situation is unfortunate, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason for them to vote Yes.

A necessary sacrifice, is the impression I get. Worth it.
I don't know if that's better or worse than those who have told you to just not have kids.
Both attitudes are alien to me but I don't know which is worse.

swampgas

SusieBlue wrote: »

Having read some of the replies to your story here on Boards on various threads, the impression I get from the No side is that they're sorry for your troubles, but they see your struggles and trauma as "worth it" to "keep abortion out of Ireland".

People like you are collateral damage, I'm sure they aren't monsters in that they do think what your situation is unfortunate, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason for them to vote Yes.

A necessary sacrifice, is the impression I get. Worth it.
I don't know if that's better or worse than those who have told you to just not have kids.
Both attitudes are alien to me but I don't know which is worse.

IMO a lot of the "that's just too bad" attitude from those supporting the 8th comes from a religious mindset.

Traditional Catholicism, in my experience, is fatalistic, "God's will be done", along with the idea of "offering it up" when faced with hardship.

To me, it's a coping mechanism from a bygone age that should be consigned to the bin. However there are still plenty of people who have grown up with the concept of making it to heaven by putting up with the hardship that religious belief imposes. Unfortunately while that's fine for their own choices, they do seem to want to impose the same fatalistic crap on everybody else.

It wasnt me123

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Unlike those other cases, I think the prolife crew will not vanish completely - they will hold the odd vigil, march, novena or protest, but we won't see them on the political stage again.

As long as they don't carryon outside women's health centres like they do in the US and other countries. That I won't stand for. No woman, or man, should be harangued, have posters pushed in their faces, be verbally abused or in some instances, have red paint thrown at them just so they can avail of legal medical treatment.

That behaviour is not acceptable in my book.

Zubeneschamali

SusieBlue wrote: »

People like you are collateral damage, I'm sure they aren't monsters in that they do think what your situation is unfortunate, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason for them to vote Yes.

I think the key here is that all the talk about babies and killing is just talk. They mostly don't believe abortion is murder or women should be locked up until they give birth, that's just the fringe loonies.

What most No voters really want is no more change. It's why the same people vote against divorce and SSM and abortion, even though the logical arguments for or against these changes are not related to one another. It's why the 13th and 14th passed even though they allow abortion - we always allowed that kind of abortion, so if the 8th changed that, we must put it back the way it always was.

But we never had abortion here before, and people in rob's situation always had to travel to England, and that's the way it should always be because that's how it used to be. The small c conservative attitude really isn't based on anything fancier than that.

dudara

SusieBlue wrote: »

Having read some of the replies to your story here on Boards on various threads, the impression I get from the No side is that they're sorry for your troubles, but they see your struggles and trauma as "worth it" to "keep abortion out of Ireland".

People like you are collateral damage, I'm sure they aren't monsters in that they do think what your situation is unfortunate, but it wouldn't be a good enough reason for them to vote Yes.

A necessary sacrifice, is the impression I get. Worth it.
I don't know if that's better or worse than those who have told you to just not have kids.
Both attitudes are alien to me but I don't know which is worse.

I have to agree with this take on it. I don't think any of the anti-choice people campaigning are monsters, but as you say, they are willing to accept some collateral damage.

One case, two cases, that's fine. But what happens when there are 100s of cases, 1000s of cases? At what point does the collective collateral damage become non-acceptable to them?

BabysCoffee

Obstetricians body recommends Yes

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/obstetricians-body-recommends-yes-vote-in-abortion-referendum-1.3473125?mode=amp#.WuAPK4SQYls.facebook

Prof John Morrison, a consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist at Galway University Hospital, and a member of the college’s representative council, said that women in many clinical situations “such as following the diagnosis of a fatal foetal condition, or where the pregnancy poses a threat to the woman’s health” have to make their own arrangements “to obtain abortion care in a different country”.


“Removing the Eighth Amendment would permit the introduction of legislation to facilitate abortion services in Ireland in compliance with best international medical and regulatory standards,” he said.

The bolded bit above is the bit that kills me. As a country we are currently failing women. We are not supporting them in times of need. They don't get care from their own doctor, instead they have to go make their own arrangements to travel to a foreign country for healthcare.

Shame on us.

RobertKK

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

Rjd2

dudara wrote: »

I have to agree with this take on it. I don't think any of the anti-choice people campaigning are monsters, but as you say, they are willing to accept some collateral damage.

One case, two cases, that's fine. But what happens when there are 100s of cases, 1000s of cases? At what point does the collective collateral damage become non-acceptable to them?

Agreed. Also they should understand by now, nothing changes for them whatsoever if the referendum is passed, instead they and other women will have more choices regarding there pregnancy. That's a good thing surely?

RobertKK

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Obstetricians body recommends Yes

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/obstetricians-body-recommends-yes-vote-in-abortion-referendum-1.3473125?mode=amp#.WuAPK4SQYls.facebook

Prof John Morrison, a consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist at Galway University Hospital, and a member of the college’s representative council, said that women in many clinical situations “such as following the diagnosis of a fatal foetal condition, or where the pregnancy poses a threat to the woman’s health” have to make their own arrangements “to obtain abortion care in a different country”.


“Removing the Eighth Amendment would permit the introduction of legislation to facilitate abortion services in Ireland in compliance with best international medical and regulatory standards,” he said.

The bolded bit above is the bit that kills me. As a country we are currently failing women. We are not supporting them in times of need. They don't get care from their own doctor, instead they have to go make their own arrangements to travel to a foreign country for healthcare.

Shame on us.

One can post No supporting obstetricians and gynaecologists who say the 8th has not interfered in the healthcare they had to provide pregnant women.

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

So what you're saying is we should repeal the 13th amendment so we can stop women having abortions abroad?

NuMarvel

RobertKK wrote: »

One can post No supporting obstetricians and gynaecologists who say the 8th has not interfered in the healthcare they had to provide pregnant women.

But one can't post No-supporting medical bodies or institutions, because none of the medical bodies or institutions are calling for a No vote.

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

And what of cases like mine Robert, was I looking to "kill" my unborn children when my partner and I knew she was doomed to miscarry them?

.......

This post has been deleted.

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

Assuming it's correct, so what?

"Learning" is the arrangement of brain cells into different configurations. It should hardly be shocking that all of the basic pathways required to live, form in utero.

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

Can you summarise that please, I cannot watch videos on work.

Any word yet on lies being spread by the official Repeal campaigns?

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

The unborn learns from an early stage and is the most important learning a human does according to the latest evidence, this from a TED talk.

https://www.ted.com/talks/annie_murphy_paul_what_we_learn_before_we_re_born

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

To be fair, there's nothing in that Ted Talk that's new. I'm a 34 year old male, and I thought that stuff was common knowledge. What a woman does while pregnant has a knock on effect.

Still nowt to do with the topic at hand.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

As time goes on more and more will be learned about the unborn, but killing the unborn will always be called a choice by some.

Hi Robert, i understand that you are pro life, I'll admit I haven't read all of your posts but are there any circumstances in which you think abortion should be permitted?

ELM327

bubblypop wrote: »

Hi Robert, i understand that you are pro life, I'll admit I haven't read all of your posts but are there any circumstances in which you think abortion should be permitted?

Considering the following:

• He has stated in the past to be against the 13th and 14th amendments
• He is against repealing the 8th
• He has repeatedly avoided direct questions

I don't think he will answer the question. And if he did, the answer would be no. I've met his ilk in real life. Even rape babies are "a gift from god". Delusional.

Larbre34

The point about the vote being accepted by both sides is a good one. If we get into this brexit type margin of 51-49 it will buoy the other side with a sense of unfinished business.

Even as we speak there are significant anti choice movements in the UK trying hard to undo their own 1960s legislation. Any Irish legislation to be introduced needs a very hefty mandate, at least 60/40 to my mind.

ELM327

Larbre34 wrote: »

The point about the vote being accepted by both sides is a good one. If we get into this brexit type margin of 51-49 it will buoy the other side with a sense of unfinished business.

Even as we speak there are significant anti choice movements in the UK trying hard to undo their own 1960s legislation. Any Irish legislation to be introduced needs a very hefty mandate, at least 60/40 to my mind.

Like the divorce referendum?
This is not the UK.

Sofiztikated

kylith wrote: »

Can you summarise that please, I cannot watch videos on work.

Any word yet on lies being spread by the official Repeal campaigns?

There's a transcript. Basically, pregnant mothers that eat carrots, the children will like carrots, pregnant mothers that eat licorice, the babies won't hate anise.

RobertKK

A life and death matter doesn’t end with a referendum. No side will be happy if they are on the losing side.
If No loses they still believe in the fundamental right to life of the unborn.
If Yes loses they still believe it that killing the unborn life is a human right.

RobertKK

Sofiztikated wrote: »

There's a transcript. Basically, pregnant mothers that eat carrots, the children will like carrots, pregnant mothers that eat licorice, the babies won't hate anise.

That is like a tiny amount of what was in it.

Zubeneschamali

Larbre34 wrote: »

The point about the vote being accepted by both sides is a good one. If we get into this brexit type margin of 51-49 it will buoy the other side with a sense of unfinished business.

I don't hear a peep about blocking divorce, and that passed by less than 51-49. A win is a win.