The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

gmisk

circular flexing wrote: »

I donated 50 euro and I've never donated a cause like this in my life

I donated 40 euro (2x20) and I would be in the same boat, I am a gay man so not really sure how the 8th would effect me but did my own research, read stories like those on in her shoes and felt I had to chip in something.
I could see it possibly effecting my niece and other woman in the future so it has to go.
Also people like that plonker John Mc guirk have really helped drive people to donate who probably wouldn't have before.

pleas advice

Sofiztikated wrote: »

2. Asking for unrestricted access, and it looks like restricting it to 12 weeks, and a 3 day waiting period, which could push someone outside those 12 weeks. Not a lie.

That's a lie

Ave Sodalis

pleas advice wrote: »

That's a lie

How is it a lie?

pleas advice

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0327/950308-draft_abortion_bill/

Minister for Health Simon Harris said it proposes to make terminations lawful where an appropriate medical practitioner has certified that pregnancy has not exceeded 12 weeks.

Some 72 hours must elapse between the certification and the termination being carried out.

also, if it isn't unrestricted abortion, could you give an example of when a woman might be refused an abortion in those 12 weeks?

RobertKK

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/eighth-amendment-played-major-role-in-savita-s-death-1.3261037

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/savita-died-because-of-eighth-amendment-claims-leading-doctor-36241339.html

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/author-of-savita-halappanavar-report-says-8th-amendment-contributed-to-her-death-810432.html

Saying she died from sepsis and not because of the 8th is like saying I have arthritis because of the hard work I was doing, not because of the person who gave me the hard work. It's like saying someone with cancer died of an infection, not of cancer. It's like saying someone with osteoporosis who broke their arm when they tripped was because they fell, not because the osteoporosis.

A letter by obstetricians and others who work to deliver babies saying Peter Boylan is giving personal opinion, not hard facts when he blames the 8th for her death.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/savita-halappanavar-inquest-1.1378062

Ave Sodalis

pleas advice wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0327/950308-draft_abortion_bill/


also, if it isn't unrestricted abortion, could you give an example of when a woman might be refused an abortion in those 12 weeks?

That link doesn't explain how it's a lie. That's pretty much what Sofiztikated said.

If the restriction was only to FFA, you'd be arguing that it's not restricted and to point out the example of where a woman with a FFA pregnancy might be refused abortion within the FFA allowance. Or if the restriction was to rape victims, you'd be asking where a rape victim would be refused an abortion.

Ave Sodalis

RobertKK wrote: »

A letter by obstetricians and others who work to deliver babies saying Peter Boylan is giving personal opinion, not hard facts when he blames the 8th for her death.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/savita-halappanavar-inquest-1.1378062

It's a good thing it was an independent review that I posted then so... :rolleyes:

Sofiztikated

pleas advice wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0327/950308-draft_abortion_bill/


also, if it isn't unrestricted abortion, could you give an example of when a woman might be refused an abortion in those 12 weeks?

If the pregnancy was determined to be 11 weeks and 5 days, that 3 day cooling off could be the difference in accessing it or not.

I'd defer to someone who knew better though, and if anyone could clear that up, I'd be much appreciated.

Smertrius

what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion

RobertKK

Sofiztikated wrote: »

1. How is that a lie? Its asking for compassion for women in **** circumstances.

2. Asking for unrestricted access, and it looks like restricting it to 12 weeks, and a 3 day waiting period, which could push someone outside those 12 weeks. Not a lie.

3. You said they weren't willing, which was pointed out it was a training or scheduling issue, not an unwillingness, and a contrary poll was posted. Again, not a lie.

4. How is asking men who happen to be pro repeal to speak to people a lie? Seriously?

5. You'd have proof of this illegal activity? As far as I'm aware, money was returned. And SIPO are currently happy.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it a lie.

Do we have time to run through the ACTUAL lies from the enforced birth side? The ones that have been demonstrated time and time again, with actual facts showing you how and why they are lies?

Killing the unborn is compassion, killing the unborn is showing love and compassion...

Unrestricted to 12 weeks and up to viability for other cases.

There will be a big problem when doctors don’t want to be abortionists and already some practices have a waiting list to see the family doctor.

Together for Yes were telling men to talk to their wives, sisters, mother and other women and vote yes, assumption that women are automatic yes voters.

Amnesty Ireland has refused to return money to Soros that SIPO said they must, other abortion groups did but maybe Colm needs it to pay his wages I don’t know but he is refusing to return it.

RobertKK

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

It's a good thing it was an independent review that I posted then so... :rolleyes:

You didn’t t post any official report.

pleas advice

Sofiztikated wrote: »

If the pregnancy was determined to be 11 weeks and 5 days, that 3 day cooling off could be the difference in accessing it or not.

I'd defer to someone who knew better though, and if anyone could clear that up, I'd be much appreciated.

my reading of it is once the certification (that the pregnancy hasn't passed 12 weeks) is carried out, thats that part of the procedure dealt with

eeepaulo

RobertKK wrote: »

A letter by obstetricians and others who work to deliver babies saying Peter Boylan is giving personal opinion, not hard facts when he blames the 8th for her death.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/savita-halappanavar-inquest-1.1378062

The report..
Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran,
Professor Emeritus of Obstetrics and Gynaecology,
St. George’s University of London,
External Independent Chairperson

Recommendation 4b.
There is immediate and urgent requirement for a clear statement of the legal context in which
clinical professional judgement can be exercised in the best medical welfare interests of
patients. There is a parallel immediate requirement for clear and precise national clinical
guidelines to meaningfully assist the clinical professionals who have the responsibility, often
in circumstance of rapid deterioration or emergency, as to how to exercise their clinical
professional judgement in a particular case. We recommend that the clinical professional
community, health and social care regulators, and the Oireachtas consider the law including
any necessary constitutional change and related administrative, legal and clinical guidelines
in relation to the management of inevitable miscarriage in the early second trimester of a
pregnancy including with prolonged rupture of membranes and where the risk to the mother
increases with time from the time that membranes were ruptured including the risk of
infection. These guidelines should include good practice guidelines in relation to expediting
delivery for clinical reasons including medical and surgical termination based on available
expertise and feasibility consistent with the law.
We recognise that such guidelines must be consistent with applicable law and that the
guidance so urged may require legal change.

The joint committee...

Professor Sabaratnam Arulkumaran

I will start with Savita's case. It was very clear to me during the inquiry that the thing preventing the physician from proceeding was the legal issue because she repeatedly said she was concerned about the legal issue. I will give a little bit of explanation. The mother was sick. There was no question about that. Even at the last minute they were using a hand probe to see whether the baby's heartbeat was present or not. Any junior doctor would have said it was a serious condition and they must terminate. They were just keeping her going because of the mere fact the heartbeat was there. The legislation played a major role in making a decision. Somebody else might say they would have done the termination much earlier. That is a personal interpretation. It is why things are made difficult because of the legislation.

Ave Sodalis

RobertKK wrote: »

You didn’t t post any official report.

The very first line of the very first link

Eighth Amendment ‘played major role in Savita’s death’

Professor who chaired HSE inquiry tells Oireachtas committee about legal concerns

And yet you post an opinion piece...

nozzferrahhtoo

RobertKK wrote: »

already some practices have a waiting list to see the family doctor.

You tried this line before and as is normal and usual for your MO, you ignored the posts that rubbished it, my own included.

So I will repeat what I said the last time you trotted out this weak line.

"Every woman who is pregnant and ordinarily resident in Ireland is entitled to maternity care under the Maternity and Infant Scheme."

"The Maternity and Infant Care Scheme provides an agreed programme of care to all expectant mothers who are ordinarily resident in Ireland. This service is provided by a family doctor (GP) of your choice and a hospital obstetrician. You are entitled to this service even if you do not have a medical card. Virtually all GPs have agreements with the Health Service Executive to provide these services; they do not have to be part of the GPs and medical cards system. The Scheme also provides for two post-natal visits to the general practitioner."

There is NO reason at all to think that affording abortion pills as an option will put any more stress on the system. Pregnant women are entitled to a visit to their GP and a hospital obstetrician anyway. They would be going to the GP anyway.

So please REGALE me with your mathematical workings about how abortion pills will affect the system and demands on the system, when women who want to seek discourse on abortion go to the GP they would have been already going to anyway. I can not wait to see how you make 1 + 0 = 2 here.

If anything any woman seeking abortion pills would be LESS of a demand on the system given they would not need, for example the "two post-natal visits to the general practitioner" that they are entitled to. But maybe 3 - 2 = 5 in your head or something?

kylith

RobertKK wrote: »

Killing the unborn is compassion, killing the unborn is showing love and compassion...

Compassion to the loving, breathing woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant. What about the woman, Robert? Why do none of the No posters mention the woman?

How many babies would you have die shortly after birth? What lies have the Yes campaign told?

Smertrius

why you lot ignoring me

what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion

Nettle Soup

Smertrius wrote: »

why you lot ignoring me

what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion

what does the word "buying" mean in this context?

saying yes to the 8th amendment means repealing it right?

ohnonotgmail

Nettle Soup wrote: »

what does the word "buying" mean in this context?

saying yes to the 8th amendment means repealing it right?

presumably "by saying" instead of "buying saying" and Yes to the Vote not the amendment

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

Killing the unborn is compassion, killing the unborn is showing love and compassion...

Unrestricted to 12 weeks and up to viability for other cases.

There will be a big problem when doctors don’t want to be abortionists and already some practices have a waiting list to see the family doctor.

Together for Yes were telling men to talk to their wives, sisters, mother and other women and vote yes, assumption that women are automatic yes voters.

Amnesty Ireland has refused to return money to Soros that SIPO said they must, other abortion groups did but maybe Colm needs it to pay his wages I don’t know but he is refusing to return it.

For someone who cares so much about compassion for the unborn you are showing absolutely zero compassion for the living breathing woman carrying the pregnancy.

You are staring so hard at the uterus and pontificating about what should and should happen it’s contents, you are neglecting to consider the woman attached to it.

Smertrius

Nettle Soup wrote: »

what does the word "buying" mean in this context?

saying yes to the 8th amendment means repealing it right?

grammerly did that
i meant say by

why you lot ignoring me

what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, by saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a raped mother becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, by saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

what if a pregnant woman informed by her doctor that her baby only lives few hours after its born and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion, buying saying yes to the 8th amendment she has the freedom to have an abortion legally.

you want these mothers to suffer 9 months during pregnancy without abortion

erica74

kylith wrote: »

Compassion to the loving, breathing woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant. What about the woman, Robert? Why do none of the No posters mention the woman?

How many babies would you have die shortly after birth? What lies have the Yes campaign told?

Eh their posters say "love both" so that has them covered on care for the woman:pac:
The woman is literally never mentioned at all by the antichoice side, never given thought or consideration but their posters say "love both" so they obviously just do "love both".

circadian

I have a question for those who wish to retain the 8th Amendment.

If it were repealed tomorrow, what effect would that have on you? I mean you, take no one else into consideration. how does it effect your day to day life? Is there any impact at all, on how you live your life, if it were repealed?

Frank Bullitt

groovyg wrote: »

Resign from what? Isn't he retired?

https://www.save8.ie

Tis up on their site, John McGuirk was on a roll again from what I could gather, he has me blocked so I just get snippets now and then.

If he is retired though...

Frank Bullitt

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

From chair of the Institute of O&G. Why? Because of his lies about women dying from the 8th....

https://twitter.com/john_mcguirk/status/989197537436463104

I mean the hypocrisy would leave you speechless

This clown asking for a resignation because of lies...he should have been gone a long time ago if thats the case.

baylah17

Gintonious wrote: »

This clown asking for a resignation because of lies...he should have been gone a long time ago if thats the case.

Their "New" poster is also on display there.
Sick sick people, is all I can say.
:mad:

Frank Bullitt

baylah17 wrote: »

Their "New" poster is also on display there.
Sick sick people, is all I can say.
:mad:

If this passes, a large "Thank you" goes to McGuirk. His idiocy has been a huge contributor for YES.

kylith

Gintonious wrote: »

If this passes, a large "Thank you" goes to McGuirk. His idiocy has been a huge contributor for YES.

If it doesn’t pass he should be sent every bill for every family that has had to get the remains of a child with FFA sent back from the U.K.

captbarnacles

circadian wrote: »

I have a question for those who wish to retain the 8th Amendment.

If it were repealed tomorrow, what effect would that have on you? I mean you, take no one else into consideration. how does it effect your day to day life? Is there any impact at all, on how you live your life, if it were repealed?

Can I add another one:

When, if ever, has remorse for the abortions taking place every day in Ireland and England entered your head?

Ave Sodalis

So let me get this straight. At the top of the page they have a petition to have Peter Boylan step down as chairman of the Insitute because he apparently “misled shamelessly”...

But two sections down, they have their new posters which has a picture of a toddler and the words "I had NO idea they want to legalise abortion up to 6 months" and with an explanation "This legislation will actually allow abortion up to ‘viability’, generally put at 24 weeks, on mental health grounds."

How is this legal?