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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #8852
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,586 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    As if mental health needed any more stigma in this country...


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    #8853
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The poll last Sunday for 12 weeks:

    43% support
    37% against
    20% don't know

    Robert did not give a link to this poll, and I can't find one with those numbers. If he is talking about the Banda Behavior & Attitude one in the Sunday Times, the numbers he gives are wrong, they should be:

    43% for
    36% against
    21% dont know

    43% in favour in the February and March survey too, so no real movement. Excluding the Don't Knows, that would be 54.4% to 45.6% win for abortion, which is close to what I expect on the day (although this is not the question we will be asked).

    In the further detail, they show the breakdown of the Yes/No/Don't Know/Won't Vote groups according to the 12 week question. 32% of the don't knows expressed a view on 12 weeks, breaking 20/12 No/Yes. If the overall 21% Don't Knows were to split according to their views on 12 weeks, the headline number would move from 47/29/21/3 to 55/42 with 3 no votes, for a 56-44 win, also not far from my 55-45 prediction.


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    #8854
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Thread from solicitor for Ms B, who was brought to the high court to compel her to undergo a caesarean. The court found in her favour, but that she could be taken to court at all is a good example of how the Eighth affects pregnancy at all stages, not just access to abortion.


    https://twitter.com/wendylyon/status/989430418054287360?s=09

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8855
    Gerry Mandarin
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Gerry Mandarin


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    But two sections down, they have their new posters which has a picture of a toddler and the words "I had NO idea they want to legalise abortion up to 6 months" and with an explanation "This legislation will actually allow abortion up to ‘viability’, generally put at 24 weeks, on mental health grounds."

    How is this legal?

    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):
    Mr Harris said that beyond the first 12 weeks, terminations would only be available in exceptional circumstances.

    These include where there is a risk of serious harm to the health or life of the woman, in emergency situations and in cases of fatal foetal abnormality.

    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.
    I'm for repealing the 8th but the wishy-washy vagueness of the proposed legislation is very worrying.


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    #8856
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".

    That's what happens now even though suicidal ideation is constitutionally mandated as being sufficient grounds for abortion.

    With respect to suicide, nothing really changes with the repeal of the 8th.

    I'd also suggest reading up on abortion statistics, especially in countries like Canada where there are no term restrictions so you can understand how vanishingly rare it is for a woman to ask for a 20 week abortion "just because"

    Consider trusting women.


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    #8857
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.

    This is exactly what she can do now. The 8th and the referendum have absolutely nothing to do with that. Not even a tiny bit.


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    #8858
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »

    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.

    Which is the case right now in Ireland.
    Doesn't happen so much.
    Also, if there is abortion up to 12 weeks for anyone requiring it, why do you think women will wait till they are 20 weeks pregnant?


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    #8859
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.

    Realistically, if a woman wants an abortion she will get it within 12 weeks. The proportion of abortions at 20 weeks, in countries where it is legal, is very small and most of them would be due to complications like FFAs.


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    #8860
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.

    The 8th already allows termination of pregnancy with no time limits at all in cases of suicidality, so this is not a change due to repealing the 8th.

    The prolifers made 2 attempts to change that by referendum and failed each time, 35-65 in 1992 and a 49.6-50.4 squeaker in 2002, so this scenario has been upheld twice already by referendum.


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    #8861
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The 8th already allows termination of pregnancy with no time limits at all in cases of suicidality, so this is not a change due to repealing the 8th.

    The prolifers made 2 attempts to change that by referendum and failed each time, 35-65 in 1992 and a 49.6-50.4 squeaker in 2002, so this scenario has been upheld twice already by referendum.

    Really goes to show how low their opinion of mental health is.


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    #8862
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #8863
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.
    I'm for repealing the 8th but the wishy-washy vagueness of the proposed legislation is very worrying.

    Maybe she is suicidal.

    Did I read something about having agreement from 2 doctors on suicidal grounds?


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    #8864
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Gerry Mandarin wrote: »
    Well, what does this mean then? (Asking sincerely):



    My interpretation is, if a pregnant woman wants an abortion at say, 20 weeks she will just have to say to her GP "I'm suicidal and need an abortion". Whether that's true or not, the doctor can't really say "You're not suicidal, go home and continue your pregnancy".
    It's naive to think this scenario would never arise.
    How exactly will this be assessed? More detail is needed in my opinion.
    I'm for repealing the 8th but the wishy-washy vagueness of the proposed legislation is very worrying.

    What's been published is just an outline of the legislation, to inform the discussion. It's not meant to be the full detail of post referendum law, which would be more fleshed out by the time it's passed. The final legislation would also be supported by clinical guidelines from the relevant medical bodies and regulators.


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    #8865
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    In theory, if the amendment was repealed, could the Dail legislate for greater than 12 weeks?


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    #8866
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,946 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Gintonious wrote: »
    https://www.save8.ie

    Tis up on their site, John McGuirk was on a roll again from what I could gather, he has me blocked so I just get snippets now and then.

    If he is retired though...

    B-b-but Repeal Shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeld!


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    #8867
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bubblypop wrote: »
    It is to repeal, or not, the 8th amendment. Which gives the unborn an equal right to life as the mother.
    I can't believe you don't know this? I am not in the country at the moment, so I don't know how much information there is. Is there some lack of knowledge surrounding the referendum?

    Many of us live in a bubble of information and education. I am not surprised a lot of people do not know much about this.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8868
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    In theory, if the amendment was repealed, could the Dail legislate for greater than 12 weeks?


    In theory they could legislate whatever way they want. Or not legislate at all. To do so would probably be political suicide and they are not totally stupid.


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    #8869
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Maybe she is suicidal.

    Did I read something about having agreement from 2 doctors on suicidal grounds?

    In the proposed legislation, all abortions would require agreement of two doctors, except in the the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, or in emergency situations.


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    #8870
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,249 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Looks like this has gone a bit further on to the International stage

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4Pk1d0ob1w


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    #8871
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    In theory, if the amendment was repealed, could the Dail legislate for greater than 12 weeks?

    Yes. That's the idea, to allow the Dail to legislate.

    But given that it took the Dail 25 years to introduce POLDPA to allow abortion in line with the 1992 X case judgement, I think it is safe to say that abortion is a toxic issue in the Dail. Given that the Citizen's Assembly recommendations give them someone else to blame, I think it is very unlikely they will do more then the minimum the CA recommended so that they have to take the blame themselves, or that they will revisit the issue anytime in the next 25 years.


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    #8872
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Smertrius wrote: »
    what if a teenager becomes pregnant and she wants an abortion by making it illegal to have an abortion, she has no freedom to have an abortion,

    The thing is though, that here in 2018 she does have a type of freedom to have an abortion. If I wanted an abortion right now I'd go on the on the internet and buy the pills. A quick google says that the people who help you get one ask for a donation of around €80. Babysitting will get you most of that but if it didn't, reading between the lines, I believe the people who get these pills won't turn away a broke teenager even if it means paying for it from their own pocket sometimes.

    Anyone in that early stage of pregnancy who really, really wants an abortion has means to get one. So it's really a question of whether we want to force girls and women to do this illegally. Potentially unsafely. Without appropriate medical care. Usually later into their pregnancy. Without follow up care. With the fear of a 14 year jail sentence hanging over them and making them too terrified to seek help if something goes wrong. The abortion is going to happen one way or the other, the 8th doesn't protect the unborn it just makes life really, really, extra shít for anyone having an abortion because they have to travel or take illegally obtained medication.

    All retaining the 8th will do is punish women who have abortions. And as collateral damage for that punishment every other woman of child-bearing age is at risk, especially when she is pregnant. And families enduring the heartbreak of discovering their wanted pregnancy is not capable of surviving are left without care. So when it comes to deciding which way to vote, it just really boils down to whether or not punishing women for having abortions matters more to you than ensuring pregnant women are entitled to a full range of essential medical care and people enduring bereavement are cared for at home.


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    #8873
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    amcalester wrote: »
    As far as I know, current when abortion pills are prescribed they are provided free of charge.

    What???????

    No. They are illegal

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8874
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    what happens if the referendum is a draw???

    Probably a full recount with barristers at every constituency arguing over every vote.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8875
    BabyCheeses
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭BabyCheeses


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Some wouldn’t believe the Gardai are involved over the illegal removal of retain the 8th posters.

    https://twitter.com/giftedtim/status/985981154024189953?s=21

    Maybe you should have provided a source from the start? You keep avoiding that for some reason. Why are you so secretive?


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    #8876
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    BabyCheeses wrote: »
    Maybe you should have provided a source from the start? You keep avoiding that for some reason. Why are you so secretive?

    I don't think Robert is secretive about his sources, I think he is just too lazy to look them up and copy/paste the links here. So he just gives a vague summary, often getting the details wrong.


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    #8877
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What???????

    No. They are illegal

    May not be the same pills that are being bought online but after a missed-miscarriage we were given pills to help pass the tissue.

    The usage method was the same as that described for abortion pills so I thought they were the same.

    I can't remember the name of the pills to be honest.


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    #8878
    groovyg
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭groovyg


    If any posters want to find out more about the legal aspects of the 8th amendment
    https://aboutthe8th.com/ is a very good site.
    They hold live Q&A on their Fb account and also have a twitter account if you have any questions.
    https://twitter.com/Aboutthe8th


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    #8879
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    amcalester wrote: »
    May not be the same pills that are being bought online but after a missed-miscarriage we were given pills to help pass the tissue.

    The usage method was the same as that described for abortion pills so I thought they were the same.

    I can't remember the name of the pills to be honest.

    They were probably the same pills, mifepristone and misoprostol, but Joey might have thought they were prescribed to have an abortion.


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    #8880
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,072 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RobertKK wrote: »
    You don’t think the abortion rate will rise going by your post, why?

    Because all the available evidence shows it doesnt.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #8881
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    RobertKK wrote: »
    You don’t think the abortion rate will rise going by your post, why?

    Because all the available evidence shows it doesnt.
    And even if it does, So what


This discussion has been closed.
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