The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

erica74

I passed a new antichoice poster this morning. It says "if killing an unborn baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no". I think an abortion at 6 months is an even more important reason to repeal. If a woman seeks an abortion 6 months into her pregnancy, you can be damn sure it's for a very valid reason. I think something like less than 3% of abortions carried out in the UK occur that late in a pregnancy.
I don't understand how the antichoice side think this sort of message is going to work in their favour. If I was undecided, my first port of call on reading that poster would be researching WHY a woman would seek an abortion at that stage of a pregnancy, in order to understand it.

stockdam

It really comes down to belief. I believe that is is not right to terminate a fetus and would therefore vote accordingly. There's more in this than just the rights of the mother to decide as to what to do with her body. The fetus is a living person or will develop into a living person (if you want to see it that way) and it relies on the mother to keep it alive. An abortion will terminate its existence/life.

So for me you have to consider the rights of the fetus and I certainly am not of the opinion that it doesn't have any rights to life.

Yes there all a lot of complicated discussions and it's not easy but abortion isn't the answer either.

pitifulgod

erica74 wrote: »

I passed a new antichoice poster this morning. It says "if killing an unborn baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no". I think an abortion at 6 months is an even more important reason to repeal. If a woman seeks an abortion 6 months into her pregnancy, you can be damn sure it's for a very valid reason. I think something like less than 3% of abortions carried out in the UK occur that late in a pregnancy.
I don't understand how the antichoice side think this sort of message is going to work in their favour. If I was undecided, my first port of call on reading that poster would be researching WHY a woman would seek an abortion at that stage of a pregnancy, in order to understand it.

Also, lack of availability of abortion makes it far more likely to have second trimester abortions.

tunguska

Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with. There seems to be an under current of aggression to this whole thing, coming from only one side I might add. Its the side that thinks its right and has the higher moral ground. But all this shows is that when someone doesnt agree with the majority view they are set upon. Respect peoples views please. Even if you dont agree with the other person respect their right to have a different outlook than you.
I'll be voting yes, but I still think that some folks on the Yes side of things need to grow up and stop being so aggressive. I noticed the same thing around the time of the Marriage referendum not so long ago. Like a liberal mafia going after anyone who dare to vote a different way to them. Have a civilised debate and be open minded, if you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

BabysCoffee

tunguska wrote: »

Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with. There seems to be an under current of aggression to this whole thing, coming from only one side I might add. Its the side that thinks its right and has the higher moral ground. But all this shows is that when someone doesnt agree with the majority view they are set upon. Respect peoples views please. Even if you dont agree with the other person respect their right to have a different outlook than you.
I'll be voting yes, but I still think that some folks on the Yes side of things need to grow up and stop being so aggressive. I noticed the same thing around the time of the Marriage referendum not so long ago. Like a liberal mafia going after anyone who dare to vote a different way to them. Have a civilised debate and be open minded, if you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

What exactly might I learn from the anti-choicers, do you think?

Hannibal_Smith

tunguska wrote: »

Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with. There seems to be an under current of aggression to this whole thing, coming from only one side I might add. Its the side that thinks its right and has the higher moral ground. But all this shows is that when someone doesnt agree with the majority view they are set upon. Respect peoples views please. Even if you dont agree with the other person respect their right to have a different outlook than you.
I'll be voting yes, but I still think that some folks on the Yes side of things need to grow up and stop being so aggressive. I noticed the same thing around the time of the Marriage referendum not so long ago. Like a liberal mafia going after anyone who dare to vote a different way to them. Have a civilised debate and be open minded, if you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

I think the posters are p*ssing people off because they're not reflecting the truth. Either way I don't think people should let a poster, or defacement of said poster sway their vote.

Reference to the same sex marriage referendum annoys me. So I may be a walking example of that aggression you describe. For me, that was about equality. One couple who loved each other can ceremonially commit to each other, but another couple cant because of their gender? It's about time we started looking at how same sex couples have been treated with absolute shame.

Zubeneschamali

tunguska wrote: »

If you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

Not judging by the posts in this thread I won't.

captbarnacles

stockdam wrote: »

It really comes down to belief. I believe that is is not right to terminate a fetus and would therefore vote accordingly. There's more in this than just the rights of the mother to decide as to what to do with her body. The fetus is a living person or will develop into a living person (if you want to see it that way) and it relies on the mother to keep it alive. An abortion will terminate its existence/life.

So for me you have to consider the rights of the fetus and I certainly am not of the opinion that it doesn't have any rights to life.

Yes there all a lot of complicated discussions and it's not easy but abortion isn't the answer either.

How do you feel about Irish women travelling to England for abortion or ordering pills online?

Sofiztikated

tunguska wrote: »

Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with. There seems to be an under current of aggression to this whole thing, coming from only one side I might add. Its the side that thinks its right and has the higher moral ground. But all this shows is that when someone doesnt agree with the majority view they are set upon. Respect peoples views please. Even if you dont agree with the other person respect their right to have a different outlook than you.
I'll be voting yes, but I still think that some folks on the Yes side of things need to grow up and stop being so aggressive. I noticed the same thing around the time of the Marriage referendum not so long ago. Like a liberal mafia going after anyone who dare to vote a different way to them. Have a civilised debate and be open minded, if you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

We've tried civilised debate, and while I agree with your sentiment, there has been one side that consistently lies, lies about lying, and their whole argument involves screaming murderer and baby killer at people.

I've asked pro life proponents to give me benefits of keeping the 8th in place, but none have taken me up on it, I'm open to having my mind changed, but they'd rather have blind emotional responses rather than thought and reason.

robarmstrong

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not judging by the posts in this thread I won't.

Yeah I still get annoyed that someone suggested I go get a vasectomy as birth control to prevent my partner miscarrying even though we're trying to have a baby, so me having a vasectomy is just ridiculous.

It's comments like those and attitudes like that that have p!ssed the pro-choice crowd off so much.

It's the sheer and utter pig ignorance that brings the aggression down upon them, especially when they play ignorant to the lies their campaign has told.

nice_guy80

still have not seen a Yes poster in the midlands

the NO vote crowd seem to have signs up outside every school (why?) and church (shows the target audience)

circular flexing

stockdam wrote: »

. There's more in this than just the rights of the mother to decide as to what to do with her body.

There really isn't.

circular flexing

tunguska wrote: »

Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with. There seems to be an under current of aggression to this whole thing, coming from only one side I might add. Its the side that thinks its right and has the higher moral ground. But all this shows is that when someone doesnt agree with the majority view they are set upon. Respect peoples views please. Even if you dont agree with the other person respect their right to have a different outlook than you.
I'll be voting yes, but I still think that some folks on the Yes side of things need to grow up and stop being so aggressive. I noticed the same thing around the time of the Marriage referendum not so long ago. Like a liberal mafia going after anyone who dare to vote a different way to them. Have a civilised debate and be open minded, if you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

I would get really good at lying, making things up, being hysterical and distracting people from the real issue if I paid attention to the no side.

nice_guy80

How are the Iona institute, as a registered religious charity, allowed to campaign publicly on the 8th Amendment issue?

stockdam

circular flexing wrote: »

There really isn't.

If you say so.......there really is. Let's go round and round and round. Pointlessly.

stockdam

captbarnacles wrote: »

How do you feel about Irish women travelling to England for abortion or ordering pills online?

They can do what they want. That has no bearing on what I feel is right.

_Dara_

tunguska wrote: »

Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with.

There is a video on this very thread showing Yes posters being ripped down. Less than a minute of google research would have helped you find out if it's happening on both sides. It's almost as if you don't care whether it's happening to Yes side election materials. Which is weird if you are a Yes voter as you claim...

Hannibal_Smith

_Dara_ wrote: »

There is a video on this very thread showing Yes posters being ripped down. Less than a minute of google research would have helped you find out if it's happening on both sides. It's almost as if you don't care whether it's happening to Yes side election materials. Which is weird if you are a Yes voter as you claim...

To be fair...You see a poster defaced, you're not going to Google to see what the score sheet is. Doesn't mean you don't care, just commenting on what you witnessed.

Zubeneschamali

stockdam wrote: »

captbarnacles wrote: »

They can do what they want. That has no bearing on what I feel is right.

This isn't about your feelings, it's about the law.

Do you feel those women belong in jail?

circadian

captbarnacles wrote: »

How do you feel about Irish women travelling to England for abortion or ordering pills online?

stockdam wrote: »

They can do what they want. That has no bearing on what I feel is right.

May I put to you a question I asked earlier that was never taken up?

circadian wrote: »

I have a question for those who wish to retain the 8th Amendment.

If it were repealed tomorrow, what effect would that have on you? I mean you, take no one else into consideration. how does it effect your day to day life? Is there any impact at all, on how you live your life, if it were repealed?

stockdam

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

This isn't about your feelings, it's about the law.

Do you feel those women belong in jail?

So it's strawman time.

That wouldn't solve anything. I'm not the police nor the courts and that's their decision.

Are you saying that an unborn fetus has absolutely no rights?

PopePalpatine

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Thats not true. The last MRBI had Repeal at over 60%

Can you show me the poll you are referring to?

Is there a poll showing Save the 8th breaking 50% with don't knows?

Repeal all the way

That poll you're referring to has 47% support for Yes, 28% for No. Red C reported 56% for Yes, 26% for No last month, that's what has me worried about a "Shy No" rearing its head when the votes are counted.

baylah17

stockdam wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

This isn't about your feelings, it's about the law.

Do you feel those women belong in jail?

So it's strawman time.

That wouldn't solve anything. I'm not the police nor the courts and that's their decision.

Are you saying that an unborn fetus has absolutely no rights?

An unborn get us has no rights that match or exceed the rights of the woman in whom it is implanted

tunguska

BabysCoffee wrote: »

What exactly might I learn from the anti-choicers, do you think?

I went to a discussion on the 8th ammendment at the weekend. Myself and another person where the only ones there who were planning on voting Yes, the rest were all voting No. Without exception these people were open, patient and kind. They listened to what I had to say, they didnt try and convince me I was wrong, they didnt try to shout me down. They didnt try and cloud my views with lies, and most of all, they werent concerned in any way with taking away anyones choice. They were concerned with life, thats all. There was no conspiracy to control anyone in anyway. I learned a lot by listening to them and not being so attached to my own views. So you just dont know what you might learn by being open, not being so attached to your own views and letting go of antagonism.

JP Liz V1

There should be no posters up for any side of this campaign imho

stockdam

circadian wrote: »

May I put to you a question I asked earlier that was never taken up?

I assume that you mean me.

Before I answer, this seems to be a one-sided discussion. I said I wouldn't repeal and suddenly I get asked loads of questions as if there's a right and wrong answer. I said it came down to a fundamental belief about the rights of the fetus and that is one's decision to believe. No amount of back and forward debate is going to change my belief and I respect that there's not a lot I can say to make you change your mind.........but you feel that you have to keep beating your drum.

That's quite an irrelevant question but it affected me three times in the past. I don't agree that your mother had the right to abort you and you are now enjoying life. Yes it then leads into hard discussion and edge cases.

I have three kids and as a father I expected to have a say in whether they were born or not. I don't agree that a woman has the right to decide as, in my case, it affected the father and also the child.

Ave Sodalis

stockdam wrote: »

So it's strawman time.

That wouldn't solve anything. I'm not the police nor the courts and that's their decision.

Are you saying that an unborn fetus has absolutely no rights?

Actually, the supreme court ruled that the only right the unborn has is through the 8th amendment. The referendum is on whether or not you believe the living, breathing, feeling woman carrying the foetus is worth more than the insentient, partially-developed potential.

Also, that's not a strawman. That's a valid counter point for your position, and one that comes from a direct logical conclusion to said point. If you believe an abortion is a termination of life, then it is a logical conclusion that you believe those that carry out an abortion should face jail as murder (which is the termination of life) carries a jail sentence. The poster was pointing out that often the pro-life arguments make sense only when applied directly to the foetus, and would not apply even in the exact same situation elsewhere.

Zubeneschamali

stockdam wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

This isn't about your feelings, it's about the law.

Do you feel those women belong in jail?

That wouldn't solve anything. I'm not the police nor the courts and that's their decision

No, it is ours on May 25th.

No-one is asking if you like abortion, the question is should it be legal here or a crime.

If you don't think abortion is a crime deserving 14 years in jail you should vote Yes, because if the unborn have an equal right to life, the state must defend it.

Ave Sodalis

stockdam wrote: »

I assume that you mean me.

Before I answer, this seems to be a one-sided discussion. I said I wouldn't repeal and suddenly I get asked loads of questions as if there's a right and wrong answer.

You are on a discussion forum.

stockdam

baylah17 wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

An unborn get us has no rights that match or exceed the rights of the woman in whom it is implanted

And that's where we disagree. If somebody disagrees then does that make you right and them wrong. Does the father have zero say? You've said that the child has no rights which is your belief.