The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

whisky_galore

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Thats not true. The last MRBI had Repeal at over 60%

Can you show me the poll you are referring to?

Is there a poll showing Save the 8th breaking 50% with don't knows?

Repeal all the way

The final count is the only thing that matters. Not polls.

circular flexing

stockdam wrote: »

And that's where we disagree. If somebody disagrees then does that make you right and them wrong. Does the father have zero say? You've said that the child has no rights which is your belief.

The problem is (and I realise this is going in circles) is that as it stands your belief is restricting the rights and freedoms of others. I am not saying abortion is right or wrong but that it should be the woman's choice what to do in her situation.

BabysCoffee

tunguska wrote: »

I went to a discussion on the 8th ammendment at the weekend. Myself and another person where the only ones there who were planning on voting Yes, the rest were all voting No. Without exception these people were open, patient and kind. They listened to what I had to say, they didnt try and convince me I was wrong, they didnt try to shout me down. They didnt try and cloud my views with lies, and most of all, they werent concerned in any way with taking away anyones choice. They were concerned with life, thats all. There was no conspiracy to control anyone in anyway. I learned a lot by listening to them and not being so attached to my own views. So you just dont know what you might learn by being open, not being so attached to your own views and letting go of antagonism.

What did you learn?

stockdam

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

No, it is ours on May 25th.

No-one is asking if you like abortion, the question is should it be legal here or a crime.

If you don't think abortion is a crime deserving 14 years in jail you should vote Yes, because if the unborn have an equal right to life, the state must defend it.

Once again a strawman.......I never said that but you are using that logic to defend your belief.

Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok?

stockdam

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

You are on a discussion forum.

Gosh.....really.....I never knew that.

Sofiztikated

stockdam wrote: »

Once again a strawman.......I never said that but you are using that logic to defend your belief.

Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok?

*sigh*

stockdam

circular flexing wrote: »

The problem is (and I realise this is going in circles) is that as it stands your belief is restricting the rights and freedoms of others. I am not saying abortion is right or wrong but that it should be the woman's choice what to do in her situation.

And the father has no rights? I assume that you feel that the child has no rights. I feel that the child has and then it gets more complicated as there are three involved. Once you take away the rights of the child and the father then the choice is easy. I don't believe that the child has absolutely no rights.

robarmstrong

stockdam wrote: »

Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok?

How do you abort a baby immediately after birth?

circular flexing

robarmstrong wrote: »

How do you abort a baby immediately after birth?

I think that's called murder if I'm not mistaken?

stockdam

Sofiztikated wrote: »

*sigh*

Ditto.........thanks for the crass reply.......why even bother?

circadian

stockdam wrote: »

Once again a strawman.......I never said that but you are using that logic to defend your belief.

Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok?

I was going to respond to your reply to my question. Thanks for answering candidly by the way, it offered insight as to why someone may vote to save the 8th.

I however decided to not further that particular line of discussion based on this piece of hyperbole.

circular flexing

stockdam wrote: »

And the father has no rights? I assume that you feel that the child has no rights. I feel that the child has and then it gets more complicated as there are three involved. Once you take away the rights of the child and the father then the choice is easy. I don't believe that the child has absolutely no rights.

No the child and father have no rights. And I say that as a father.

stockdam

robarmstrong wrote: »

How do you abort a baby immediately after birth?

Well abort is not the correct word so let's use an example. If the child is not breathing after the birth then is it ok for the mother to say "don't attempt" to revive it or to initiate breathing?

Sofiztikated

tunguska wrote: »

I went to a discussion on the 8th ammendment at the weekend. Myself and another person where the only ones there who were planning on voting Yes, the rest were all voting No. Without exception these people were open, patient and kind. They listened to what I had to say, they didnt try and convince me I was wrong, they didnt try to shout me down. They didnt try and cloud my views with lies, and most of all, they werent concerned in any way with taking away anyones choice. They were concerned with life, thats all. There was no conspiracy to control anyone in anyway. I learned a lot by listening to them and not being so attached to my own views. So you just dont know what you might learn by being open, not being so attached to your own views and letting go of antagonism.

You happen to have mentioned twice that there was a lot to learn. What was that, if you don't mind me asking?

Ave Sodalis

stockdam wrote: »

Once again a strawman.......I never said that but you are using that logic to defend your belief.

Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok?

The point is that you never said it. If you believe that abortion is a termination of life, then logic dictates that you must believe that those who carry about abortion must be jailed, prevented from travel to carry it out etc. However, most people say they believe that abortion is murder but yet would not go to the same lengths to prevent/punish it as an actual murder. It's logical fallacy.

stockdam wrote: »

Gosh.....really.....I never knew that.

As much as I appreciate your sarcasm, I'm still wondering why you were complaining about people asking you questions after you gave your opinion on a discussion forum. Unless it's specifically an advice thread, isn't that the point of a discussion forum?

stockdam

circular flexing wrote: »

No the child and father have no rights. And I say that as a father.

Fine and so there's no debate. I believe they have and you believe they haven't. So why bother asking anymore? I didn't start asking you to explain why as it's pointless as it comes down to belief.

captbarnacles

stockdam wrote: »

It really comes down to belief. I believe that is is not right to terminate a fetus and would therefore vote accordingly. There's more in this than just the rights of the mother to decide as to what to do with her body. The fetus is a living person or will develop into a living person (if you want to see it that way) and it relies on the mother to keep it alive. An abortion will terminate its existence/life.

So for me you have to consider the rights of the fetus and I certainly am not of the opinion that it doesn't have any rights to life.

Yes there all a lot of complicated discussions and it's not easy but abortion isn't the answer either.

Irish women are having abortions here and in England. Nobody afaik wants to stop this least of all any of the pro-lifers here yet they say the fetus has a right to life. How do you square these two beliefs?

The only answer so far in two mega threads is NIMBY. That's it.

Zubeneschamali

stockdam wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

stockdam wrote: »

No, it is ours on May 25th.

No-one is asking if you like abortion, the question is should it be legal here or a crime.

If you don't think abortion is a crime deserving 14 years in jail you should vote Yes, because if the unborn have an equal right to life, the state must defend it.

Once again a strawman.......I never said that but you are using that logic to defend your belief.

I'm not sure what you think you didn't say. I am responding to things you did say. I even quoted them.

Abortion is happening in Ireland and it is, because of the 8th, a serious crime.

I agree with you that jailing women won't help, but that means it should not be a crime with a 14 year penalty.

So we should change the law. To do that we must first repeal the 8th.

To your question, I am ok with abortion on the terms proposed by the CA and government.

iguana

stockdam wrote: »

It really comes down to belief. I believe that is is not right to terminate a fetus and would therefore vote accordingly. There's more in this than just the rights of the mother to decide as to what to do with her body. The fetus is a living person or will develop into a living person (if you want to see it that way) and it relies on the mother to keep it alive. An abortion will terminate its existence/life.

So for me you have to consider the rights of the fetus and I certainly am not of the opinion that it doesn't have any rights to life.

Yes there all a lot of complicated discussions and it's not easy but abortion isn't the answer either.

Voting no will not stop abortions. It costs €80 to order the pills it takes to end a pregnancy. €80. All you do by voting no is make life harder for the woman having the abortion. A no vote is a vote to hurt her but it won't stop her. So if your desire to hurt her as some sort of punishment then vote no. But doing so will also put countless pregnant women needlessly at risk and ensure that many bereaved families get no medical treatment.

stockdam

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

The point is that you never said it. If you believe that abortion is a termination of life, then logic dictates that you must believe that those who carry about abortion must be jailed, prevented from travel to carry it out etc. However, most people say they believe that abortion is murder but yet would not go to the same lengths to prevent/punish it as an actual murder. It's logical fallacy.



As much as I appreciate your sarcasm, I'm still wondering why you were complaining about people asking you questions after you gave your opinion on a discussion forum. Unless it's specifically an advice thread, isn't that the point of a discussion forum?

I said it appears to attract a one-sided debate.

You are using another strawman to put words into my mouth. I said it was my belief that a fetus should not be aborted. I didn't say that it was murder. I said that it was a difficult discussion and it's not a solution to put a mother into jail because she doesn't agree.

If you feel that people who would vote against you will claim that it is murder then you have a very narrow viewpoint. That then becomes a strawman argument to justify your position.

circular flexing

stockdam wrote: »

Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok?

This is such a ridiculous question.

Abortions generally don't happen once the point of viability has been reached (generally around 24 weeks from my understanding). The legislation proposed doesn't allow abortion past 12 weeks unless there is a FFA or a risk to the life of the mother. But it all comes back to (again) that the woman should be given the options available and allowed to make her choice.

robarmstrong

stockdam wrote: »

Well abort is not the correct word so let's use an example. If the child is not breathing after the birth then is it ok for the mother to say "don't attempt" to revive it or to initiate breathing?

Irrelevant, as it has nothing to do with the 8th, it's a born baby.

Ave Sodalis

stockdam wrote: »

I said it appears to attract a one-sided debate.

You are using another strawman to put words into my mouth. I said it was my belief that a fetus should not be aborted. I didn't say that it was murder. I said that it was a difficult discussion and it's not a solution to put a mother into jail because she doesn't agree.

If you feel that people who would vote against you will claim that it is murder then you have a very narrow viewpoint. That then becomes a strawman argument to justify your position.

You said abortion was the termination of life. The unlawful termination of life is murder. I am not putting words into your mouth.

stockdam

captbarnacles wrote: »

Irish women are having abortions here and in England. Nobody afaik wants to stop this least of all any of the pro-lifers here yet they say the fetus has a right to life. How do you square these two beliefs?

The only answer so far in two mega threads is NIMBY. That's it.

So if you don't believe that something is right then your only solution appears to to be to use force to stop it? Nobody is pretending that it is easy to "solve".

Ok since I'm the one getting all the questions then let's start to balance it up.

Do I have the right to hold a belief that the child and father have rights? If so then do I have right to vote whichever way I feel is right? Does that lead to me agreeing that a woman should be put into jail?

Ave Sodalis

stockdam wrote: »

Do I have the right to hold a belief that the child and father have rights? If so then do I have right to vote whichever way I feel is right? Does that lead to me agreeing that a woman should be put into jail?

Yes, yes, and following your exact logic that you yourself have so far given us, yes.

stockdam

robarmstrong wrote: »

Irrelevant, as it has nothing to do with the 8th, it's a born baby.

Ok let's agree then that's murder. I was exploring what is ok after birth and before the chord is cut. You are saying that once the baby is outside of the mother then it's murder. Fine.......is it ok 5 minutes before birth? When does the child begin to have a right?

circular flexing

stockdam wrote: »

Do I have the right to hold a belief that the child and father have rights? If so then do I have right to vote whichever way I feel is right? Does that lead to me agreeing that a woman should be put into jail?

You can believe whatever you want. The problem is that your current belief causes harm to others.

robarmstrong

stockdam wrote: »

Ok let's agree then that's murder. I was exploring what is ok after birth and before the chord is cut. You are saying that once the baby is outside of the mother then it's murder. Fine.......is it ok 5 minutes before birth? When does the child begin to have a right?

Dunno what you're pitching here, it's all irrelevant unless you're directly insinuating that repealing the 8th will lead to abortions right up to birth.

Sofiztikated

stockdam wrote: »

Ditto.........thanks for the crass reply.......why even bother?

Mostly because that has been done to death, and a quick search over this thread will give you an answer.

Secondly, you were complaining of a strawman argument, and then immediately launched into one of your own.

And finally, I'm tired. Tired of the same arguments, tired of the head in the sand, tired of the complete and utter ignorance to the reality of what the 8th does to people.

Have a look back, read robs situation, he's a guy, that wants a baby with his wife, but a freak of nature means that if/when his wife gets pregnant, the risk of miscarrying is high, due to where it gets implanted. So rather than being able to take charge of it, and terminate the (much wanted) pregnancy if it goes tits up (again) they're forced to wait.

Read In Her Shoes, there's a million different reasons why someone might need access to an abortion.

Its been happening since day dot, pints of gin, hot baths, falling down the stairs, coathangers, trips to England, ordering pills online, whatever.

I'd just prefer if women could do it, with less risk, and without fear of imprisonment.

stockdam

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

You said abortion was the termination of life. The unlawful termination of life is murder. I am not putting words into your mouth.

Yes you are putting words into my mouth. I never once jumped to the conclusion nor implied it. Your argument is based on what you think I think.