The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

robarmstrong

RobertKK wrote: »

1. Yes posters and no mention of abortion - it is a lie to say people are voting for compassion when it involves allowing the unborn to be terminated and dumped as medical waste, but the latter bit isn't mentioned.

2. It is not unrestricted abortion.

3. A majority of GPs are willing to become abortionists.

4. The yes campaign telling men to talk to the women in one's life pesuming they are all yes voters. None of them are in my life.

5. There is no illegal activity involving money on the Yes side.

The lies Robert is referring to.

Frank Bullitt

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Just look at this latest one below(not gory).


a) WTF has the 1 year old child (or whatever he is) got to do with anything?

b) The 8th does not ban late term abortions for suicidality now.

c) Are they aware that this little guy is also the face of xytex.com, a sperm donor operation?

Apparently as well, this image was used for a sperm bank...and I am not joking here.

SusieBlue

Due to family history, I am a high risk of cervical and ovarian cancer.
Because of this, and due to an abnormal result on my very first smear, I have a test every 3 to 6 months.
Since I started having these regular smears 2 years ago, every single one has come back with the result of "low grade changes", so there is something abnormal there, but nothing threatening. Yet.
I'm asked to come back for a repeat 3/6 months later to observe, rinse and repeat.

My most recent one was last month. These appointment have turned into something mundane, something I am used to. I presumed it would come back with the usual result.
"High Grade Changes & Genotyping" was the result this time.

So I was brought back for an emergency colposcopy to take biopsies of the cells this week. Before this procedure was performed, I was asked to do a pregnancy test.
If that test had come back positive, I was told that there would be nothing they could do for me that day, only discuss my "options".

I wouldn't be able to have the necessary tests to determine how high the risk of cancer for me is. I'm 27 years old.
Luckily the pregnancy test was negative, as expected.
And hopefully the results of the colposcopy will be ok. And I know this probably sounds dramatic, because I don't have cancer.
But I need monitoring to ensure it doesn't go that way.
But if the option of going to the UK wasn't there for me, I would be expected to carry on with this pregnancy. In 9 months time those high grade changes could have turned into cancer.

And in a country where cervical cancer is the second most common cancer to kill women aged 25 to 39, this is an absolute disgrace. This is why the 8th needs to be repealed.
If I want to gamble my life for those 9 months, that risk should be mine and only mine to take. It should not be for society to decide when they don't have to live with the consequences.
"Love Both" indeed.

Grayson

RobertKK wrote: »

4. The yes campaign telling men to talk to the women in one's life pesuming they are all yes voters. None of them are in my life.

So what you're saying is that you've actually talked to them like the campaign said?

Sofiztikated

RobertKK wrote: »

They were posted but some people want people to be parrots.

Yeah, no.

I went through that in detail, as did others, as to why they're not lies.

So still waiting.

_Dara_

RobertKK wrote: »

They were posted but some people want people to be parrots.

Nope, you still haven't provided any.

Could you, for the first time on this thread, fill us in on some of the lies told by the Yes campaign?

What's the issue here? Surely if you have some examples, it's easy to write about them?

Bridge93

Don't know if it's been discussed already, but The Journal did a fact check on the 1/5 are aborted in England poster

FactCheck: Are 1 in 5 babies in England aborted?
http://jrnl.ie/3951738

volchitsa

robarmstrong wrote: »

I was a no voter myself until my partner was denied access to a legal abortion over and over again when we suffered miscarriage after miscarriage due to her medical issues.

Kinda lost my rag a bit that they wouldn't give her the dignity to end the pregnancy on her own terms and instead essentially forced her to suffer these miscarriages.

I did further reading and research into what exactly her medical issues meant and was infuriated even more to find out she did not qualify for the 8th's terms, been a yes voter ever since.

What worries me about this (and I'm not blaming you for it, Rob, because the problem is that this is almost the norm) is that we can't possibly wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

robarmstrong

volchitsa wrote: »

What worries me about this (and I'm not blaming you for it, Rob, because the problem is that this is almost the norm) is that we can't possibly wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree, we can't wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

But we can do our absolute best to have this 8th repealed and allow women access to safe and legal abortion in this country.

volchitsa

robarmstrong wrote: »

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree, we can't wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

But we can do our absolute best to have this 8th repealed and allow women access to safe and legal abortion in this country.

Yes absolutely, and you've been doing a sterling job on that here. As you say it's all we can do.
What I meant was, that level of almost brainwashing in the country (and I include my younger self in that too) is why it is such an uphill struggle still.

Despite all the evidence, a huge number of people just won't really care until it actually affects them. It's exactly what SPUC and the rest hoped would be the case when they were pushing to get the 8th brought in in the first place, it has become the status quo and people find it hard to rethink things so radically and look at it differently from how they were told for years.

Bobeagleburger

The No campaign is akin to the Flat Earthers. A lot of noise and lies.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Aharddecision

I didn't see this thread and posted on another. Thought I'd post here too.
I've given a lot of thought to the abortion debate. More so than any other subject we get to vote on. I've been torn between what I've seen friends go through and the morality of it all. It’s such a hard choice. I do not want to make a mistake and regret my vote.

I've looked at several factors:

The physical & mental trauma caused by it being illegal here
The amount of women it has affected yearly (those who travelled to UK & Netherlands)
The support offered after the fact
The pros and cons of each side of the debate

I was still conflicted.

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I would recommend you read it if you are still on the fence, as it helped me decide.

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

I would suggest you read the document before you vote, even if you disagree with it, to ensure you have all the facts.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

Aharddecision

Aharddecision wrote: »

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

Just wondering what you mean by this?

robarmstrong

robarmstrong wrote: »

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree, we can't wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

But we can do our absolute best to have this 8th repealed and allow women access to safe and legal abortion in this country.

Think we discussed this before Rob, it's easy to be against something if we will never physically go through it because we're men, and unless you have someone you love face it.
Then a person has to decide well do I let them die because of my beliefs, or do I leave them if they go ahead and do it because of my beliefs.
Personally anyone who would let someone they love die because of their own personal beliefs either doesn't love the person or is a little bit mentally unhinged. I could see trying to support a partner who wanted to continue with the pregnancy if they so wished to but in the back of my mind at all times would be what if this goes wrong and I loose them.
In terms of a woman deciding to have a termination, and it causing the end of the relationship, things like this should have been discussed before ye even get serious about each other never mind after the lets move in/ marriage.

nozzferrahhtoo

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The issue of abortion first came to my attention in my latter teens. I now approach 40. At this time the anti abortion brigade used to delight in setting up information stalls just outside central bank in dublin. Replete with many of the fetal photography that we are still used to seeing today.

I decided I wanted to inform myself on the issue rather than simply take the default position that was expected of someone in my kind of headspace. So I cleared an ENTIRE Saturday.... assuming it would be a long conversation with some back and forth and lots of education for me.

I headed into town and approached the stalls and openly told them that I did not want to blindly take a default position on this issue and I wanted to hear their side of the issue openly and honestly and at length.

They said "Have you seen these pictures here?".

I agreed with them that the pictures they had chosen were indeed quite gruesome but I was there for the conversation, and the substance of their position.

"Loook at the pictures maaaaaan" I was told again in a kind of empty drawl.

After a few more attempts resulting in repeatedly been referred to the pictures I left with a whole Saturday still to fill. The entire discussion with all of them took less than 30 minutes.

And this has been representative of pretty much every conversation I have had with them since. So please, by all means regale me with what I might learn from these people if only I would listen to them. Because I HAVE been listening to them. For 2 and a half decades. What is it you feel I am not hearing?



So you are admonishing us to talk to "normal people" not figure heads and listen to them. Then when we ask YOU questions so we can listen to YOU you reverse track on that and assert we are not prepared to listen (false) and that by asking "normal people" so we can listen to them..... it means we should not be asking you and we should make up our own mind and find out for ourselves?

Bit of a have cake and eat it stacking of the deck you are pulling as a fast one there don't you think? Simultaneously admonishing people to do something, while admonishing them when they actually try to do that very thing.

Weird this is. Honest it is not. So why do you do it?

The guy outside the central bank, telling you to look at the pictures, he wouldn't happen to have had ginger hair and a bad goatee by any chance?

ohnonotgmail

Aharddecision wrote: »

I didn't see this thread and posted on another. Thought I'd post here too.
I've given a lot of thought to the abortion debate. More so than any other subject we get to vote on. I've been torn between what I've seen friends go through and the morality of it all. It’s such a hard choice. I do not want to make a mistake and regret my vote.

I've looked at several factors:

The physical & mental trauma caused by it being illegal here
The amount of women it has affected yearly (those who travelled to UK & Netherlands)
The support offered after the fact
The pros and cons of each side of the debate

I was still conflicted.

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I would recommend you read it if you are still on the fence, as it helped me decide.

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

I would suggest you read the document before you vote, even if you disagree with it, to ensure you have all the facts.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

what alternative way is there to resolve the situation of a woman who doesnt want to be pregnant? Or a woman whose pregnancy is preventing her getting life-saving treatment?

robarmstrong

Aharddecision wrote: »

I didn't see this thread and posted on another. Thought I'd post here too.
I've given a lot of thought to the abortion debate. More so than any other subject we get to vote on. I've been torn between what I've seen friends go through and the morality of it all. It’s such a hard choice. I do not want to make a mistake and regret my vote.

I've looked at several factors:

The physical & mental trauma caused by it being illegal here
The amount of women it has affected yearly (those who travelled to UK & Netherlands)
The support offered after the fact
The pros and cons of each side of the debate

I was still conflicted.

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I would recommend you read it if you are still on the fence, as it helped me decide.

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

I would suggest you read the document before you vote, even if you disagree with it, to ensure you have all the facts.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

So by the gist of it, you were on the fence, you looked at all the women suffering, read some pro-life propaganda and are voting No, am I correct?

Aharddecision

bubblypop wrote: »

Just wondering what you mean by this?

I think if we were to be debating how best to serve the women affected and agree to treat these problems on a case by case basis rather than one overall solution (one size fits all), these women would be better served. There is no mention in the government's proposal for specifics of pre and after care. Only who can do what and when and what happens if you don't.

I don't have all the answers but the bill is vague and open to interpretation afterwards which could see it becoming something we didn't vote for.

Does that make sense?

patrickSTARR

Hi all,

Im not hear for a big debate on my stance or a backlash from either side on my thoughts. I wont reply to this post but I feel conflicted on which side to vote for and shall outline how I see it.

I can see merit in what both sides want to an extent. I can also see many things/tactics from both sides that I disagree with.

I can see benefits in voting yes or voting no, that being said I can see the downside to voting yes or no as well. For me its not a simple as a definitive yes or no. For any undecided voter weighing up the pros and cons of each side, its not an easy decision, however it is an important one in which you should weigh up each side of the argument.

This thread is filled with people who appear have their feet firmly planted in one camp, not many undecided.

Now on my thoughts on the issue, some of my thoughts lean me to vote no, other thoughts lean me to vote yes.

On one hand I believe a foetus is a baby. Like the No posters suggest, after 9 weeks a healthy foetus can have a heart beat and is very much alive in my opinion.

I don’t agree that healthy unplanned pregnancies should be aborted.

But on the other hand, I do think the 8th as it is wrong. I read so many stories about women who have had horrible experiences and I agree that a change is needed, but I don't want to change the current laws to the point that healthy foetus can be aborted.

Many people from the yes side tell me to have compassion and vote yes. I believe its not just a womens body but the unborn child too. Once conception is made, in my eyes, its not just her body that needs consideration.

But on the other side, what about those women who have their life in danger due to health issues, they need care too. What if its my wife or daughter whos life is in danger of being lost if she has complications after realising shes pregnant.

Now the No side tell me voting to repeal that 12 week unrestricted abortions are very much a realistic possibility. Some of the Yes side tell me that this is not the case. The No side tell me I cant trust the government to put in place the right restrictions if the 8th was repealed. I do not trust the government to do whats best for people, I trust them to do whats best for themselves.

But the issue isn’t just about that, its about helping women who are in awful, life or death situations that need a repeal. That much I know.

So for me I want to make the right choice, I see the good in both sides for my beliefs. I see the negatives in both sides if they don’t win.

I feel which ever way I vote, there are negative and positive consequences. Its a tough decision for me and one that I fear which ever one I make, someone will suffer whether its a father who sees his healthy unborn child aborted by the mother, or woman who dies due to the complications of not being able to get the right care.

For me there is no right answer, just the best one I can make.

gmisk

Aharddecision wrote: »

I was still conflicted

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

And you think that document would be impartial?

Aharddecision

Aharddecision wrote: »

I think if we were to be debating how best to serve the women affected and agree to treat these problems on a case by case basis rather than one overall solution (one size fits all), these women would be better served. There is no mention in the government's proposal for specifics of pre and after care. Only who can do what and when and what happens if you don't.

I don't have all the answers but the bill is vague and open to interpretation afterwards which could see it becoming something we didn't vote for.

Does that make sense?

Well, not really! There is no bill yet.
& I don't think they are suggesting one overall solution, just more choice for women who find themselves in a difficult position.
As it is, they have certain choices, basically have the baby or go to a different country for treatment.
I'm not sure how keeping the 8th amendment makes this better?

Aharddecision

robarmstrong wrote: »

So by the gist of it, you were on the fence, you looked at all the women suffering, read some pro-life propaganda and are voting No, am I correct?

No you are not. Im voting no because it is a bad bill.

I've a friend. Her baby died when she was 6 months gone. I can't tell you the heartache they went though. Explaining to everyone, her young kids especially, was not something anyone should ever have to do. Her life was not as risk. She had to keep the baby inside her until she was 9 months. Tell me how this bill would release anyone from that agony?

amcalester

Aharddecision wrote: »

I think if we were to be debating how best to serve the women affected and agree to treat these problems on a case by case basis rather than one overall solution (one size fits all), these women would be better served. There is no mention in the government's proposal for specifics of pre and after care. Only who can do what and when and what happens if you don't.

I don't have all the answers but the bill is vague and open to interpretation afterwards which could see it becoming something we didn't vote for.

Does that make sense?

You’re not voting on the proposed legislation.

You are voting solely on whether you want to repeal/replace the 8th.

The legislation is an entirely separate issue.

Aharddecision

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, not really! There is no bill yet.
& I don't think they are suggesting one overall solution, just more choice for women who find themselves in a difficult position.
As it is, they have certain choices, basically have the baby or go to a different country for treatment.
I'm not sure how keeping the 8th amendment makes this better?

Sorry bad choice of words.

From the doc I quoted


The Amendment clearly supports standard obstetric practice of insisting on the use of all medically necessary treatments to protect the life of the mother even if this unintentionally compromises the life of the unborn child- while as far as is practicable making every effort to protect the life of that child.
The 8th amendment does not compromise the care of expectant mothers. Ireland remains one of the safest places in the world to have a child.
Those politicians and doctors who have declared themselves publicly in favour of repeal, view "the 8th" as the single biggest obstacle, not only to selective abortion for unborn children who are terminally ill, but also to the wider availability of abortion as a means of fertility control. This is precisely what the eighth amendment of the constitution was intended to do. Retention of the Eighth would mean that the current brake on abortion provision in this country would continue. Removal of the Amendment would remove the brake. If this is what we want.

Aharddecision

amcalester wrote: »

You’re not voting on the proposed legislation.

You are voting solely on whether you want to repeal/replace the 8th.

The legislation is an entirely separate issue.

Will we get to vote on the legislation?

robarmstrong

Aharddecision wrote: »

No you are not. Im voting no because it is a bad bill.

I've a friend. Her baby died when she was 6 months gone. I can't tell you the heartache they went though. Explaining to everyone, her young kids especially, was not something anyone should ever have to do. Her life was not as risk. She had to keep the baby inside her until she was 9 months. Tell me how this bill would release anyone from that agony?

By allowing her to abort that baby instead of making her give birth to a dead child.

I know all about that heartache. I've had to watch my partner have miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage because she was denied access to a safe and legal abortion, the same way your friend was due to the 8th.

Repealing the 8th would change that.

Aharddecision

Aharddecision wrote: »

Will we get to vote on the legislation?

You can lobby, March etc the same as anyone does when there is a bill.

amcalester

Aharddecision wrote: »

Will we get to vote on the legislation?

As per the constitution our elected representatives, TD’s and Senators, will vote on it.

If you don’t agree with the proposal then lobby by your local TD.

Aharddecision

robarmstrong wrote: »

By allowing her to abort that baby instead of making her give birth to a dead child.

I know all about that heartache. I've had to watch my partner have miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage because she was denied access to a safe and legal abortion, the same way your friend was due to the 8th.

Repealing the 8th would change that.

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.