The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Bannasidhe

Gintonious wrote: »

Apparently as well, this image was used for a sperm bank...and I am not joking here.

https://www.xytex.com/author/3mediaweb/

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

robarmstrong

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Your problem is appearing to be getting in the way of women like your friend having access to safe and legal abortion, which she was denied to, due to the 8th.

So if your friend falls pregnant again, and the same thing happens to the baby, the no vote will force her to go through the same pain as before.

So you won't have helped her, at all.

amcalester

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Assuming the currently proposed legislation passed women who are currently denied certain medical treatments will then have the option of undergoing previously unavailable medical treatment.

BabysCoffee

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

What would you like to happen after we vote?

eviltwin

Aharddecision wrote: »

No you are not. Im voting no because it is a bad bill.

I've a friend. Her baby died when she was 6 months gone. I can't tell you the heartache they went though. Explaining to everyone, her young kids especially, was not something anyone should ever have to do. Her life was not as risk. She had to keep the baby inside her until she was 9 months. Tell me how this bill would release anyone from that agony?

If the baby was dead why was she not induced?

I smell a fake story.......

Aharddecision

Thanks everyone for your replies. You've given me new perspective and I will now vote yes and hope our legislators will do right by us.

I'm glad I came here now ))

robarmstrong

Aharddecision wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your replies. You've given me new perspective and I will now vote yes and hope our legislators will do right by us.

I'm glad I came here now ))

If I had of known we were that persuasive I'd have at least thrown in that you offer to wash our cars.

Sh!te, looks like I've missed out big time now.

Aharddecision

eviltwin wrote: »

If the baby was dead why was she not induced?

I smell a fake story.......

She was on the late late show. You can probably look it up. It's not a fake story. Thats an awful thing to say but I can understand your scepticism in our current climate.

Aharddecision

robarmstrong wrote: »

If I had of known we were that persuasive I'd have at least thrown in that you offer to wash our cars.

Sh!te, looks like I've missed out big time now.

Haha!! Get the boat

Aharddecision

Aharddecision wrote: »

Sorry bad choice of words.

From the doc I quoted


The Amendment clearly supports standard obstetric practice of insisting on the use of all medically necessary treatments to protect the life of the mother even if this unintentionally compromises the life of the unborn child- while as far as is practicable making every effort to protect the life of that child.
The 8th amendment does not compromise the care of expectant mothers. Ireland remains one of the safest places in the world to have a child.
Those politicians and doctors who have declared themselves publicly in favour of repeal, view "the 8th" as the single biggest obstacle, not only to selective abortion for unborn children who are terminally ill, but also to the wider availability of abortion as a means of fertility control. This is precisely what the eighth amendment of the constitution was intended to do. Retention of the Eighth would mean that the current brake on abortion provision in this country would continue. Removal of the Amendment would remove the brake. If this is what we want.

Ireland being the safest/best place to have a child has actually been debated in the thread and found to not really measure up, even leaving aside the 8th, care provided by the NHS has been shown to be better than that provided by the HSE, despite some pro life posters trying to claim otherwise because abortion is legal in the U.K. so this is the NHS default answer to any issue related to pregnancy.

Bringing back in the 8th, women have died and been denied treatment simply because they are pregnant.

Martina1991

patrickSTARR wrote:

I don’t agree that healthy unplanned pregnancies should be aborted.

This element makes me feel uncomfortable as well. But the 8th amendment hasn't stopped women seeking abortion in these circumstances. These women have gone abroad or bought illegal pills online without medical supervision.

patrickSTARR wrote:

But on the other hand, I do think the 8th as it is wrong. I read so many stories about women who have had horrible experiences and I agree that a change is needed, but I don't want to change the current laws to the point that healthy foetus can be aborted .

Voting No:
. Nothing changes.
. Women will still seek abortions abroad illegally and at later stages in pregnancy
. Maternity care for all women put at risk.

Voting Yes:
. women who still seek abortions have them in a safe environment at the earliest possible stage with support.
. Maternity care is not hindered and intervened only when the woman is close to death.

Aharddecision

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Try

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/eighthamendmentoftheconstitution/

Or


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-will-seek-to-ban-late-term-abortions-1.3440056

Aharddecision

DubInMeath wrote: »

Ireland being the safest/best place to have a child has actually been debated in the thread and found to not really measure up, even leaving aside the 8th, care provided by the NHS has been shown to be better than that provided by the HSE, despite some pro life posters trying to claim otherwise because abortion is legal in the U.K. so this is the NHS default answer to any issue related to pregnancy.

Bringing back in the 8th, women have died and been denied treatment simply because they are pregnant.

I haven't read the whole thread but it is very informative!

Zubeneschamali

Aharddecision wrote: »

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

Ok. This isn't hard at all. I voted against the 8th in 1983 because it was insane, and I'll vote against it again.

Might even win this time.

Zubeneschamali

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Jazz music. No, wrong thread, abortion.

Abortion will happen here legally, instead of happening in England legally or here illegally.

Ave Sodalis

Did anyone hear what Cora Sherlock was saying earlier? It was on I-Radio so I'm not sure where she said it, but she was talking about how abortion up to 12 weeks is actually worse than what they have in the UK....

patrickSTARR

Martina1991 wrote: »

This element makes me feel uncomfortable as well. But the 8th amendment hasn't stopped women seeking abortion in these circumstances. These women have gone abroad or bought illegal pills online without medical supervision.

Voting No:
. Nothing changes.
. Women will still seek abortions abroad illegally and at later stages in pregnancy
. Maternity care for all women put at risk.

Voting Yes:
. women who still seek abortions have them in a safe environment at the earliest possible stage with support.
. Maternity care is not hindered and intervened only when the woman is close to death.

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

Bannasidhe

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

It's really quite simple imho.

As long as the 8th is there ALL women, regardless of their circumstances, are subjected to it when pregnant.

It turns a crises into a nightmare scenario but doesn't actually prevent 'a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus' - as long as she can afford to travel.

Also - do you seriously believe a woman who has a baby only because she couldn't afford to travel is the model of parenting we should be advocating?

Sofiztikated

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

Define healthy.

patrickSTARR

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

But our constitution gives rights to women for information on abortion & the right to travel for one. So basically, our constitution only protects the unborn if you cannot travel.
Abortion happens anyway, it's a constitutional right, it just happens in a different country.

pjohnson

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Did anyone hear what Cora Sherlock was saying earlier? It was on I-Radio so I'm not sure where she said it, but she was talking about how abortion up to 12 weeks is actually worse than what they have in the UK....

I like hearing her. She always provides comedy with her ramblings. Never seems to complete an interview without either completely flip-flopping form where she started or uttering something mind-numbingly stupid.

patrickSTARR

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's really quite simple imho.

As long as the 8th is there ALL women, regardless of their circumstances, are subjected to it when pregnant.

It turns a crises into a nightmare scenario but doesn't actually prevent 'a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus' - as long as she can afford to travel.

Also - do you seriously believe a woman who has a baby only because she couldn't afford to travel is the model of parenting we should be advocating?

Just because someone can afford to travel to get it done else where doenst mean I can advocate abortions being legal for healthy mothers and babies here. I cant advocate it here

I wouldn't be advocating them as models of parenting, not at all, but the child deserves a chance to live regardless of how good a mother it may have is.

But that's just one side of my thought process on where my vote lies. Women do need urgent care when in dangerous pregnancies. Its about me deciding which is the greater good. Ive a month to get off the fence. I still feel whichever way I vote, someone suffers.

joe40

I'm not sure the option to travel can be taken for granted in the future. I haven't heard anyone talking about this, but surely with brexit looming, the idea of the NHS continuing to provide abortion for Irish women may not continue.

Martina1991

patrickSTARR wrote:

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned. .

[ b]Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned [/b]. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

I think anti choice people are afraid every unplanned pregnancy will result in abortion. That is ridiculous.

The process of abortion is painful, stressful, traumatic and shameful. (I'm going by the stories of women who have actually had one).

No woman would walk into an abortion clinic simply because its down the road. It could never be a decision made lightly.

You're main argument for voting no is these hypothetical women. Women you don't know. Women you will never know. Their decisions have no effect on your life whatsoever. These women who can afford to travel could still have abortions thanks to the 13th amendment. Voting No doesn't stop it.

Smertrius

i am saying nobody should be forced go to another country to have an abortion and its their freewill to have an abortion

Bannasidhe

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Just because someone can afford to travel to get it done else where doenst mean I can advocate abortions being legal for healthy mothers and babies here. I cant advocate it here

I wouldn't be advocating them as models of parenting, not at all, but the child deserves a chance to live regardless of how good a mother it may have is.

But that's just one side of my thought process on where my vote lies. Women do need urgent care when in dangerous pregnancies. Its about me deciding which is the greater good. Ive a month to get off the fence. I still feel whichever way I vote, someone suffers.

Respectfully, I would counter that your first point is pure NIMBYism which penalises those who cannot afford to travel or due to their status in Ireland - e.g in Direct Provision - cannot legally travel. It's how we ended up with a rape victim being force-fed.

as for "I wouldn't be advocating them as models of parenting, not at all, but the child deserves a chance to live regardless of how good a mother it may have is." - I just can't even...! I doubt you want a situation where children are neglected, abused, made to feel unwanted and unloved but that is what you are saying you prefer...

Women cannot get that urgent care until their life is in serious danger. This will continue as long as the 8th is there. Where is the "greater good" in that? Women will continue to be collateral damage.

Larbre34

joe40 wrote: »

I'm not sure the option to travel can be taken for granted in the future. I haven't heard anyone talking about this, but surely with brexit looming, the idea of the NHS continuing to provide abortion for Irish women may not continue.

Its not an NHS service. People go privately to places like Marie Stopes and pay.

To avail of the NHS you need to be a UK resident and paying social insurance or an EU citizen seeking emergency treatment (i.e. not abortion) on an E111

patrickSTARR

Martina1991 wrote: »

You're main argument for voting no is these hypothetical women. Women you don't know. Women you will never know. Their decisions have no effect on your life whatsoever. These women who can afford to travel could still have abortions thanks to the 13th amendment. Voting No doesn't stop it.

Firstly its not an argument, its my thought process. Im still undecided. Just because I don't or do know these women, those lives are still lost. I don't think every unplanned pregnancy will result in an abortion if the 8th is repealed, but with it being more easily available it will become a more normalised option.

I know 2 women who have had abortions (that I know of) of healthy babies, both regret it and suffer years later.

On the flip side I know people who suffered from the 8th during pregnancies and suffer years later too.

Im happy with how Im making my decision in the run up to this vote, I will do my best to make the right choice.

circular flexing

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Did anyone hear what Cora Sherlock was saying earlier? It was on I-Radio so I'm not sure where she said it, but she was talking about how abortion up to 12 weeks is actually worse than what they have in the UK....

She might be right, I haven't looked too much into it though. Wikipedia says

In England and Wales and Scotland, section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967 now reads:[1]

Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -
(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

so it seems you have to give a reason for abortion in the UK whereas I think the proposed legislation here means no reason required up to 12 weeks.

To me the difference is of no importance anyway.

reubenreuben

Why is it always england, england, england when some are referring to abortion statistics/comparisons.

Its not the only country that has legal abortions you know.