The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

lillycakes2

lillycakes2 wrote: »

Too many people will continue to have sex irresponsibly and use abortion then to avoid having a baby- which is a human life.

Why would you think this?
Do you think women take abortion lightly? With no thought at all?
Why do you presume women would just get pregnant instead of using contraception?
It doesn't make sense.

Moiratat

lillycakes2 wrote: »

I feel abortion should be allowed in certain criteria such as cases of rape , certain fetal abnormalities etc but the government haven't made this referendum about these types of cases.
They have made it to mean we would be welcoming abortion on demand,for any reason before 12 weeks. I don't agree with that, Total game changer.

Too many people will continue to have sex irresponsibly and use abortion then to avoid having a baby- which is a human life.
I would vote yes if it was for specific cases but seen as this referendum is just going to open up the flood gates to abortion for any reason at all, I will be voting no.
I would vote yes if the criteria was different.

But how would you legislate for cases of rape? Make the victim stand trial? That would take too long. What about women in abusive relationships that don't want to bring their child into that situation? What about teenagers who are children themselves, should we force these children to have and raise children?

genericgoon

lillycakes2 wrote: »

I feel abortion should be allowed in certain criteria such as cases of rape , certain fetal abnormalities etc but the government haven't made this referendum about these types of cases.
They have made it to mean we would be welcoming abortion on demand,for any reason before 12 weeks. I don't agree with that, Total game changer.

Too many people will continue to have sex irresponsibly and use abortion then to avoid having a baby- which is a human life.
I would vote yes if it was for specific cases but seen as this referendum is just going to open up the flood gates to abortion for any reason at all, I will be voting no.
I would vote yes if the criteria was different.

The problem here is that as long as we choose to have every single change to our abortion laws come down to a simple Yes/No question (which is inevitable when doing it via referendum) then people who want to decide over these scenarios, distinctions or term limits are going to be boxed out of the debate. If repeal occurs, you will still be able to lobby your representatives to make the exact changes you want rather than continuing this destructive game (which only favours people with more absolutist positions) of having unrepresentative referendums every 5/10 years.

The original sin here was believing that the beliefs of millions of Irish people on any issue as complex as abortion could possibly be accurately reflected in one (or more) sections of text basically a long as a tweet. The 8th is bad constitutional law and the last 35 years of awful cases, additional clarification referendums and discussion on this issue being dominated by a small set of extreme talking heads has shown that.

Sofiztikated

lillycakes2 wrote: »

I feel abortion should be allowed in certain criteria such as cases of rape , certain fetal abnormalities etc but the government haven't made this referendum about these types of cases.
They have made it to mean we would be welcoming abortion on demand,for any reason before 12 weeks. I don't agree with that, Total game changer.

Too many people will continue to have sex irresponsibly and use abortion then to avoid having a baby- which is a human life.
I would vote yes if it was for specific cases but seen as this referendum is just going to open up the flood gates to abortion for any reason at all, I will be voting no.
I would vote yes if the criteria was different.

To be honest, retain or repeal, SOME people are going to continue doing that anyway.

Voting to retain is just sticking your fingers in your ears, and lalalaing away to yourself, pretending everything is just rosy.

seamus

kylith wrote: »

Can anyone on the No side please explain to me where the compassion is here?

https://www.facebook.com/RepealTheEighth/posts/160910714583354:0

well according to the no campaign last night we need to stop focussing on these cases and worry about the "healthy" babies being aborted. Tragic Presumably the No campaign believe that these women are suffering for a noble cause and are collateral damage in the fight to keep abortion out of Ireland.

Mr. CooL ICE

Had my first canvassers call to the door (Dublin west). They were from Together For Yes. Pretty much told them straight off that it was a Yes household. They gave me a leaflet and I just told them to keep up the good work.

Sofiztikated

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

Had my first canvassers call to the door (Dublin west). They were from Together For Yes. Pretty much told them straight off that it was a Yes household. They gave me a leaflet and I just told them to keep up the good work.

If anyone wants to look back, I took a few photos of the Save the 8th, 20 page, heavier paper stock, booklet that came through my door a while ago.

Compare that to the Together for Yes leaflet, which is an single (double sided) A5, lighter paperstock. It's still screamingly obvious who has the better funding.

Wrongway1985

lillycakes2 wrote: »

They have made it to mean we would be welcoming abortion on demand,for any reason before 12 weeks. I don't agree with that, Total game changer

No what does that even mean? someone has sold you this "on demand" babble. You actually think women will misplace their thoughts and have clear consciences about using abortion as a means of contraception.

Is this abortion on demand? - Sheila did ya hear Elaine had her 4th abortion the other day, bleedin' amateur I'm on me 17th!

_Dara_

Moiratat wrote: »

But how would you legislate for cases of rape? Make the victim stand trial? That would take too long. What about women in abusive relationships that don't want to bring their child into that situation? What about teenagers who are children themselves, should we force these children to have and raise children?

Exactly, people who are okay with it in the case of rape aren’t thinking things through.

Sofiztikated

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

No what does that even mean? someone has sold you this "on demand" babble. You actually think women will misplace their thoughts and have clear consciences about using abortion as a means of contraception.

Is this abortion on demand? - Sheila did ya hear Elaine had her 4th abortion the other day, bleedin' amateur I'm on me 17th!

And if they're not having abortions for the lulz, they're getting pregnant of purpose to trap lads.

joe40

In terms of "opening the flood gates" argument I really don't think it makes much sense.
It is not credible that someone would go through with an unwanted pregnancy because they didn't want to go to England.
The decision is too serious for travel to be a "dealbreaker" I don't think a yes vote increase the number of women accessing abortion, it will make an extremely difficult decision more manageable.
That is not taking away from the hardship that exists for those that have to travel and the financial burden which is massive for many people. Teenagers in care is also another issue

erica74

More stupid posters gone up around Waterford last night (do these people have any actual jobs??). They're trying to tap into the men of Ireland, something like "fathers protect your children, vote no".

There was groups handing out antichoice leaflets and prochoice leaflets in the town centre.
We were chatting to an older lady who was handing out prochoice leaflets and she said for the first time since she started handing out leaflets, she got a lot of abuse today. She said she was called a lot of names, she wondered was it as a result of the Late Late Show last night. She was wearing a Repeal jumper so we knew what she was handing out so we went over to her. I think we probably looked like we were making a beeline for her and she looked a bit wary when we approached her first. After we started chatting, she said "it's nice to see a friendly face" so I hope we cheered her up for the afternoon.

taserfrank

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Is this abortion on demand? - Sheila did ya hear Elaine had her 4th abortion the other day, bleedin' amateur I'm on me 17th!

Personally, that kind of situation is one I'm afraid we could have if the referendum is passed. I'm trying to read as much as I can on this, but so far I'm not convinced.

Zubeneschamali

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes 46%
No 31%
Undecided 23%

So, not shocking at all. Would translate to 60:40 on the day if it stayed like that. Was 66:34 in January.

Still on track to be 55:45 on the day, in line with my own prediction.

Timberrrrrrrr

taserfrank wrote: »

Personally, that kind of situation is one I'm afraid we could have if the referendum is passed. I'm trying to read as much as I can on this, but so far I'm not convinced.

Do you honestly think women just decide to have an abortion at a whim? Do you think it's a simple decision to make? Do you honestly think so little of women that you think terminating a pregnancy for whatever reason is a simple One?

taserfrank

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you honestly think women just decide to have an abortion at a whim? Do you think it's a simple decision to make? Do you honestly think so little of women that you think terminating a pregnancy for whatever reason is a simple One?

For most women, no. But there are some selfish women out there too.

Martina1991

Voting No won't suddenly make abortions stop. They are already happening. Thousand of Irish women have abortions every year. For whatever reason.

Abortions occur in every country. They will never be entirely stopped. Ireland will never have 0 abortions. Anti choice people are not accepting that.

Keeping the 8th saves no one.

BabysCoffee

taserfrank wrote: »

Personally, that kind of situation is one I'm afraid we could have if the referendum is passed. I'm trying to read as much as I can on this, but so far I'm not convinced.

Seriously what type of women do you know and interact with regularly??

Do you honestly think your daughters, your sisters, your nieces, your work colleagues, friends will be choosing to have an abortion wily nily?

Why would they do that?

Martina1991

taserfrank wrote:

For most women, no. But there are some selfish women out there too.

So ALL women must be punished for the "selfish" few.

joe40

taserfrank wrote: »

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Is this abortion on demand? - Sheila did ya hear Elaine had her 4th abortion the other day, bleedin' amateur I'm on me 17th!

Personally, that kind of situation is one I'm afraid we could have if the referendum is passed. I'm trying to read as much as I can on this, but so far I'm not convinced.

Have a look at abortion laws in Europe, it is basically just us and Malta left. The countries where abortion is still illegal are mostly central america, middle east and some African countries.
Abortion has been available in a lot of countries for a long time where many irish people are happy to live.

NuMarvel

genericgoon wrote: »

The original sin here was believing that the beliefs of millions of Irish people on any issue as complex as abortion could possibly be accurately reflected in one (or more) sections of text basically a long as a tweet.

I am totally stealing this!

taserfrank

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Seriously what type of women do you know and interact with regularly??

Do you honestly think your daughters, your sisters, your nieces, your work colleagues, friends will be choosing to have an abortion wily nily?

Why would they do that?

I think you are running away with the point I was making. I was merely suggesting that some women who might otherwise have kept their child, may now consider terminating it if abortion becomes so freely available.

kylith

taserfrank wrote: »

Personally, that kind of situation is one I'm afraid we could have if the referendum is passed. I'm trying to read as much as I can on this, but so far I'm not convinced.

Have you read about what actually happens when you have an abortion? It’s worse than the worst period pain (for men who don’t have periods: that’s described as worse than a heart attack), passing massive blood clots, blood loss, vomiting, and can last for days.

Does that sound like something a person would do cos they can’t be bothered using a condom, or they’d nip in to have at lunch like a blow-dry?

BabysCoffee

taserfrank wrote: »

I think you are running away with the point I was making. I was merely suggesting that some women who might otherwise have kept their child, may now consider terminating it if abortion becomes so freely available.

And what business of yours is that?

Odhinn

taserfrank wrote: »

For most women, no. But there are some selfish women out there too.

And you think that somebody that "selfish" is the kind you'd trust with a new born baby?

Nettle Soup

RobertKK wrote: »

Moiratat wrote: »

And what about me Robert? I have life experience past many my age, I raised my siblings, educated them on important subjects unlike their schools, or is my life experience not valid to you?

It is clear for the majority of older people that retain/No is the compassionate position to be on, who some on the Yes side have attacked with ageism comments.
I don’t know you, and it is not my place to judge you as an individual even if I did as to make out I am somehow perfect.
I think yes for compassion is a lie as most of the abortions would be healthy women aborting healthy unborn. I think a lot of older wise people would also see through this Yes slogan lie.

I doubt you even believe what you are saying anymore Robert.

joe40

taserfrank wrote: »

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Seriously what type of women do you know and interact with regularly??

Do you honestly think your daughters, your sisters, your nieces, your work colleagues, friends will be choosing to have an abortion wily nily?

Why would they do that?

I think you are running away with the point I was making. I was merely suggesting that some women who might otherwise have kept their child, may now consider terminating it if abortion becomes so freely available.

I would imagine for the vast majority of pregnant women the decision to terminate would be horrendous, and would not be easy. I don't think the "convenience" of been able to do it in Ireland will be a deciding factor.

taserfrank

Look, I'm just asking questions, there's no need to jump down my throat.

Martina1991

taserfrank wrote:

I was merely suggesting that some women who might otherwise have kept their child may now consider terminating it if abortion becomes so freely available.

How impressionable and stupid do you think women are.

Do you think we'll see an Ad for a clinic and think f*ck it. I couldn't be arsed having this baby. I'll just pop in and make the most difficult decision of my life on a whim because I can.

kylith

taserfrank wrote: »

Look, I'm just asking questions, there's no need to jump down my throat.

Maybe you need to think about phrasing your questions so it doesn’t sound like you think a woman would get an abortion because she can’t fit into her jeans any more.