The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

iguana

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm interested in how people feel about allowing the Government to have full control over future legislation in the event of the 8th amendment being repealed?

I'd far rather give the government the power to legislate than ensure their hands are absolutely tied so they can't legislate. Which in turns means that doctors can't make medically informed decisions in the best interests of their parents.

Larbre34

I don't know how anyone who listened to the woman on the Late Late, forced to travel to have a termination due to FFA, only to have the remains couriered to her house in a carton some time later, could vote to retain the 8th. Its a special kind of Irish cruelty.

If you object to abortion in principle, fine, no legislation will force you or your loved one to have one. But have some compassion for those facing these rare but awful, life changing situations, that in all probability you and yours will never have to face.

Killester1

mohawk wrote: »

If I found out tomorrow that I was pregnant I would consider abortion. I already have a child and I cannot afford another. I would like to one day own a home, help him through college (if that is what he wants) it seems like an impossible dream. So if tomorrow I found out I was pregnant I would have to consider the implication for my child. The little human I have been watching grow for 8 years would come first. I actually would like another child but it would be selfish of me as then I would be bringing them up in poverty.[/

Why wait till it happens!!! Take control of your body. That’s what the YES want isn’t it ....my body my choice ..... everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions and not have abortion as the fall back.

It wasnt me123

mohawk wrote: »

If I found out tomorrow that I was pregnant I would consider abortion. I already have a child and I cannot afford another. I would like to one day own a home, help him through college (if that is what he wants) it seems like an impossible dream. So if tomorrow I found out I was pregnant I would have to consider the implication for my child. The little human I have been watching grow for 8 years would come first. I actually would like another child but it would be selfish of me as then I would be bringing them up in poverty.

Fair dues for being so honest - I respect your decision for making plans for you and your family. Who knows what we would do if faced with an unwanted / not viable pregnancy in a similar circumstance.

Body autonomy - Repeal all the way

ELM327

conorhal wrote: »

Even talking to a retard?

Let Owen Benjamin explain the word to you.

The word is not acceptable.
End of.

(Although I'm not sure what the politically correct word is, whatever it is, I'm sure that I'm currently corresponding with one )

It wasnt me123

[QUOTE=Killester1;106859568

Why wait till it happens!!! Take control of your body. That’s what the YES want isn’t it ....my body my choice ..... everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions and not have abortion as the fall back.[/quote]

Maybe she is - dont be so quick to judge but if anything this thread has shown us is that nothing is 100% - contraception included.

Don't judge someone elses choices - you don't know their circumstances - have some compassion for what others might be going through.

Repeal all the way and then the busy bodies can mind their own business!

Poyndexter

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm interested in how people feel about allowing the Government to have full control over future legislation in the event of the 8th amendment being repealed?

That's the whole point.

Zubeneschamali

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

It's amazing how reading that you can't tell if the poster is talking about this referendum or the SSM referendum.

Poyndexter

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

The 8th amendment is more important than just abortion. Repelling it is very important for women's health.
Do all the lobbying & marching you want after, you can have a say in legislation

It wasnt me123

I don't normally dissect posts but I will do it for this one if that's okay. I'm bolding it to make it easier to read.

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

There is name calling on both side - just look above at Conorhal's post - disgusting and he's a No voter - its regrettable but some people lose the run of themselves at times. The main reason the No voter is afraid to vote is because when asked to state the providence of their statement, they can't. They don't want to have a healthy debate, they come in post about baby murderers or a quote from Iona Institute and then disappear.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way to far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

You are voting on repealing the 8th amendment - not on abortion. That is for legislation. This is why Yes voters get so heated - No voters muddy the waters - stay on topic. We are voting to repeal a constitutional amendment - then we will have legislation - two totally different things.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

You might call a fetus the most vulnerable but I don't - I would keep that title for the homeless, elderly, people with learning or physical disabilities - you know, the people who are living and actually need our support - you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't think your opinion should take precedence over mine - choice for all.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

I also will vote on the 25th for yes - and I don't think you will have to fear a backlash as in every poll and the doorsteps, the majority want a Repeal.

Please continue to post, because its impossible to have a debate if there is only one side debating the facts.

AtomicHorror

Poyndexter wrote: »

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

There'd be protests. After that, a new campaign for repeal.

Boo!

SusieBlue

Killester1 wrote: »

Why wait till it happens!!! Take control of your body. That’s what the YES want isn’t it ....my body my choice ..... everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions and not have abortion as the fall back.

For some people having an abortion IS taking responsibility.
It being a choice you wouldn’t make doesn’t make it the wrong one.
I’ll keep repeating it until people understand.

iguana

Poyndexter wrote: »

someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

But you aren't protecting them. Not one little bit. It's 2018 most people have the money and means to go to Britain/Europe and anyone who doesn't can get an abortion pill online. You aren't protecting one single foetus, please don't fool yourself about that. 35 years ago some abortions were prevented but that is not the case today. I can empathise with someone who voted for the 8th in the past when they were possibly protecting foetuses and did not understand that they were putting the lives and health of women at risk.

But here and now. No embryos or foetuses are being saved, wanted embryos and foetuses can be put at risk (in the case of twins where one is non viable and will kill the second if not aborted), women are routinely put at risk and families undergoing the bereavement of FFA are left without care. All so some people can pretend to save embryos and foetuses. Because that's all you are doing; pretending. increasingly few people are fooled by it and most of us who do understand are justifiably angry that anyone is willing to put fooling themselves ahead of women's safety.

Hammer Archer

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

You've no problem with the No side labelling yes voters/campaigners as murderers/baby killers I suppose (which has happened quite a bit). We've had No voters label people as stupid as well on this thread but it's telling that you only see the one side.

You vote no and that's your business. Personally, I would never want to see my partner, my daughter, my sister or any other girl/woman in my life be denied potentially life saving medical treatment, die because a miscarrying fetus still has a faint heartbeat, be kept alive on machines while her brain rots because a non viable fetus still has a heartbeat, be forced to have her baby's remains shipped by courier from the UK because she couldn't have her FFA pregnancy aborted here or even simply be forced to the UK (away from her support network and GP) to terminate a pregnancy because she cannot cope with a(nother) baby.
If you'd be happy to see the women/girls in your life deal with one (or more) of these things then by all means vote no. Personally I find the above situations absolutely barbaric.

AtomicHorror

ELM327 wrote: »

The word is not acceptable.
End of.

(Although I'm not sure what the politically correct word is, whatever it is, I'm sure that I'm currently corresponding with one )

"Intellectual disability" is the usual term.

That being said, conflating the intellectually lazy with the intellectually disabled is also not acceptable, regardless of the term you use for it.

AtomicHorror

SusieBlue wrote: »

For some people having an abortion IS taking responsibility.
It being a choice you wouldn’t make doesn’t make it the wrong one.
I’ll keep repeating it until people understand.

It is actually about completely the opposite of responsibility. If you have "no choice" under the law, then you're not responsible for the consequences of following the law.

It is slave morality. The same morality that drives Christianity and the rest of the lousy Abrahamic religions. Nobody has to be responsible when things go wrong if they never had a choice. The Word, the Bible, the Quaran, the Torah, the Law. The worst consequences can be regarded as a tragic manifestation of some grander plan or design, beyond the control of us all.

True responsibility only comes from choice. From having to look at the balance of your values, the possible consequences of each path, weigh it all up and then act. And then, accept personal responsibility for the outcome, good or bad.

The slaves call that "playing god".

SusieBlue

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

The 8th amendment does and will continue to effect my maternity care, as it will for every other pregnant woman in this country.
It ties the hands of doctors during an emergency, compromising the care both I and my baby will receive.
It adds stress to already stressful situations.
It states that the >12 week old fetus gestating in my uterus is of equal value and importance as me, a living, breathing, sentient, woman.

But it isn’t all about me.
It adds further distress and trauma to women experiencing FFA.
It casts shame and pressure on women having a crisis, unplanned pregnancy.
It further demeans women who have gone through rape.

It has neither the best interests or of women of babies at heart.
It isn’t medical best practice.
It was put in place to stop abortion and it hasn’t even achieved that.

Abortions have been happening in Ireland since the dawn of time. They are happening today. They will happen in the future.
For as long as women are conceiving, there will be women wanting to terminate.
Ireland never was and never will be an abortion free country.This is a fact.

We’ve just moved on from coat hangers and scalding bath to departure gates and ferry ports.

The question is whether we want to regulate this, by ensuring that the women who do seek terminations, can do so in a safe, supervised situation.
Or whether we’ll continue to stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it isn’t happening.

So maybe you can understand now why people aren’t tolerating No voters.
The No voters don’t care about these women or these families, and see them as collateral damage, a worthy sacrifice to keep Ireland ‘abortion free’.

We need to look after the living citizens we do have before offering any rights to potential people at their expense.

This is why I’ll be voting Yes. Repeal the 8th.

Killester1

SusieBlue wrote: »

For some people having an abortion IS taking responsibility.
It being a choice you wouldn’t make doesn’t make it the wrong one.
I’ll keep repeating it until people understand.

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

AtomicHorror

Killester1 wrote: »

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

Who said it's the only solution? If it were, why would we be talking about choice? What alternative would there be to the only answer?

Zubeneschamali

Killester1 wrote: »

But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy.

It isn't the only solution.

But it is one of the solutions, and should be legally available to all, not just to those who can afford a trip to England.

robarmstrong

Killester1 wrote: »

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

Because the women don't want to be forced into a carrying a pregnancy full term, what part of that do you not understand?

A woman should not be forced into carrying a pregnancy she does not want to full term. If she wants an abortion she should have one, if she does not want one and instead wants to carry full term and give up for adoption then she may absolutely do that.

reubenreuben

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

Basically what you are saying is this.

You want to tell women that they can't have an abortion in Ireland, and you are not responsible if they have it in a different country, get sick because of it and are not able to ask for anyone's help in Ireland. That states to me that you are an uncaring fool.

Why should you have this power over someone else's mind and body.

Hammer Archer

Killester1 wrote: »

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

It's not the only solution. It's an option. Or at least it should be in this country.

One thing I've noticed from the no side is that they're all about working on "solutions" but have never actually put forward any themselves.

Poyndexter

bubblypop wrote: »

The 8th amendment is more important than just abortion. Repelling it is very important for women's health.
Do all the lobbying & marching you want after, you can have a say in legislation

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

AtomicHorror

Poyndexter wrote: »

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

The point is that you can lobby for change to the legislation, as is the case for all legislation.

Killester1

Hammer Archer wrote: »

It's not the only solution. It's an option. Or at least it should be in this country.

One thing I've noticed from the no side is that they're all about working on "solutions" but have never actually put forward any themselves.

What options do the YES side have to offer?

Poyndexter

SusieBlue wrote: »

So maybe you can understand now why people aren’t tolerating No voters.
The No voters don’t care about these women or these families, and see them as collateral damage, a worthy sacrifice to keep Ireland ‘abortion free’.

Incorrect. I do care about women and i also care about the unborn.

I really wish people would read my post instead of seeing a post from a no voter and the angry mob jumping on top of them. How dare they express a different opinion.

And as for the poster calling me a fool would you get a life and cop on.

Regarding cases of ffa, rape and danger of life to mother I agree abortion should be legalised in those cases but it’s the unlimited up to 12 weeks that goes too far for me and why I’m voting no.

Water John

But you are not being asked to vote on the 12 weeks. So you'll vote NO and those cases, you mention yourself as needing the option of abortion, your sacrafycing up as , collateral damage.

It wasnt me123

Poyndexter wrote: »

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

Nobody is twisting any argument - there are two things you keep discussing and bringing under the 8th amendment argument.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment.

Legislation will then come into play. You don't like the legislation then you vote for the TD who reflects what you want. The plan is 12 weeks but its not been passed as yet - lobby your TD to get it changed - that's democracy.

My body autonomy should never be held to ransom in the Constitution.