The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

pitifulgod

Poyndexter wrote: »

Incorrect. I do care about women and i also care about the unborn.

I really wish people would read my post instead of seeing a post from a no voter and the angry mob jumping on top of them. How dare they express a different opinion.

And as for the poster calling me a fool would you get a life and cop on.

Regarding cases of ffa, rape and danger of life to mother I agree abortion should be legalised in those cases but it’s the unlimited up to 12 weeks that goes too far for me and why I’m voting no.

You are aware that abortions happen for Irish women regardless? In fact, limiting availability simply results in later abortions due to the need to travel.

reubenreuben

Poyndexter wrote: »

Incorrect. I do care about women and i also care about the unborn.

I really wish people would read my post instead of seeing a post from a no voter and the angry mob jumping on top of them. How dare they express a different opinion.

And as for the poster calling me a fool would you get a life and cop on.

Regarding cases of ffa, rape and danger of life to mother I agree abortion should be legalised in those cases but it’s the unlimited up to 12 weeks that goes too far for me and why I’m voting no.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment. See, you are a fool.

swampgas

Poyndexter wrote: »

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

So you disagree with the recommendations of the Citizen's Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee on the 8th Amendment, both of which agreed with abortion on request up to 12 weeks?

Do you also agree with keeping the 12th and 13th amendments, you know the ones that guarantee the right to information on abortion and the right to travel for an abortion?

Because as long as the 12th and 13th amendments are there as well, removing the 8th won't make much of a difference to elective abortions, it will just relocate them. It will make a huge difference to medical care, FFA cases, and so on.

As such, I can't see how the 12 week limit is important in this debate. For one thing, although it is what is proposed for subsequent legislation, it is not part of the 8th amendment itself. For another, I imagine that the abortions you are opposed to (guessing: healthy woman pregnant, no medical issues) are going to happen anyway as long as those women have the means to travel.

So what impact is is voting No going to have on Irish women, if the No vote wins? Is it going to stop abortions? No. Is it going to continue to put Irish women's lives at risk? Yes.

Is there some other principle that you believe is important here, that I'm not getting?

Are you religious? Is that why you want to vote No?

Is it because you think some women will "abuse" abortion being available?

I'm genuinely curious.

Poyndexter

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Nobody is twisting any argument - there are two things you keep discussing and bringing under the 8th amendment argument.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment.

Legislation will then come into play. You don't like the legislation then you vote for the TD who reflects what you want. The plan is 12 weeks but its not been passed as yet - lobby your TD to get it changed - that's democracy.

My body autonomy should never be held to ransom in the Constitution.

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

pleas advice

Water John wrote: »

But you are not being asked to vote on the 12 weeks..

We pretty much are though. But some people would deny that the referendum has anything to do with abortion at all
And deny that abortion is the killing of a living entity
And deny the level of abortion in countries that have legalised it,
And deny the realities of the methods of abortion that will be available

Water John

Politicians are, the same as the rest of us. Their views change over time. Many who supported the 8th in 1983, will now be voting for it to be repealed, incl me.

pleas advice, 12 weeks is being suggested. It may not pass in the Dail, though.

swampgas

Poyndexter wrote: »

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

To be frank, this is a red herring that we are seeing over and over. You don't have to "trust" politicians, instead you get to choose which ones to elect.

I get the impression you were disappointed that some politicians came out as pro-choice. You can always vote for someone else.

Are you annoyed that the majority of TDs seem to disagree with you? In which case, that's just bad luck. You need to get better at persuading people to agree with your position.

Or perhaps you need to rethink your own position instead.

It wasnt me123

Poyndexter wrote: »

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

As has already been said in this thread, fairly recently actually.

You trust politicians to legislate for everything from working conditions, teaching, hospitals, road laws, benefits, travel rules, etc etc, everything.

Why will this legislation be such a problem. I personally like a politician that can change, can inform themselves on a matter and change their mind if their opinion has changed. That person has the strength of their conviction and just doesn't stick their head in the mud and pretend society hasn't changed.

If I was being facetious I would say "its not compulsory" you know, but I just don't get it. What a perfect stranger does with their body has absolutely nothing to do with you, or me or anyone else. Its none of our business.

Poyndexter

swampgas wrote: »

As such, I can't see how the 12 week limit is important in this debate. For one thing, although it is what is proposed for subsequent legislation, it is not part of the 8th amendment itself. For another, I imagine that the abortions you are opposed to (guessing: healthy woman pregnant, no medical issues) are going to happen anyway as long as those women have the means to travel.

So what impact is is voting No going to have on Irish women, if the No vote wins? Is it going to stop abortions? No. Is it going to continue to put Irish women's lives at risk? Yes.

Is there some other principle that you believe is important here, that I'm not getting?

Are you religious? Is that why you want to vote No?

Is it because you think some women will "abuse" abortion being available?

I'm genuinely curious.

Of course the proposed 12 week legislation is important in this debate and yes I disagree fully with a random 100 people that makes up the citizens assembly.

Yes the main issue I have are healthy women opting to have an abortion simply because they don’t want a child. If brought in here there is a far higher case of women making rash decisions jist like the many cases I have heard from women who deeply regret have an abortion or the near misses like the lady who spoke on the late late the other night. What we need is further support for women who find themselves in this situation. There are also options of putting your child up for adoption if they felt they couldn’t cope with raising a child for whatever reason.

pitifulgod

Poyndexter wrote: »

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

People's positions can change though.. That's the reality. Eg my mother would have originally voted no. But now will most likely vote yes because of women's experiences which she was oblivious to. Is my mother also a flip flopper?

Poyndexter

reubenreuben wrote: »

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment. See, you are a fool.

Great argument. At least the other posters who oppose my views can be sensible in their arguments and not resort to name calling.

Larbre34

If anything proves the case for repealing the 8th, its that public opinion, party manifestoes, medical knowledge and technology do change and that the constitution is not the place for something that may need and deserve regular democratic review.

Sofiztikated

Poyndexter wrote: »

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

Or, god forbid, they put aside their own their own prejudices, and work for the people the are suppose to serve.

Poyndexter

pitifulgod wrote: »

People's positions can change though.. That's the reality. Eg my mother would have originally voted no. But now will most likely vote yes because of women's experiences which she was oblivious to. Is my mother also a flip flopper?

No your mother isn’t like that at all. My point is that politicians only care about image, votes and popularity to keep themselves in a job and their party in power. The fact that Leo wouldn’t come out and publically state his stance on the 8th amendment for so long is testament to this.

ELM327

Poyndexter wrote: »

Great argument. At least the other posters who oppose my views can be sensible in their arguments and not resort to name calling.

He's not wrong though.
You fit the mold of a fool.

-Missing the point (it's about repeal, not abortion)
-Reason for voting no - imposing your morals on everyone
-Denial - thinking that voting no stops abortion. 10 per day happen for Irish women in the UK and 43 have happened on Irish soil since the introduction of the Protection of Life during Pregnancy act.
-Penalising everyone, because you care more about enforcing births than you do about women's health, and bodily autonomy.

So, yeah, I think fool pretty much fits the bill of you and your ilk tbh.

swampgas

Poyndexter wrote: »

Yes the main issue I have are healthy women opting to have an abortion simply because they don’t want a child.

It sounds like you think pregnancy and childbirth and parenthood are easy. Why on earth would you force someone through all that if they weren't ready, able and willing to do so?

If brought in here there is a far higher case of women making rash decisions jist like the many cases I have heard from women who deeply regret have an abortion or the near misses like the lady who spoke on the late late the other night. What we need is further support for women who find themselves in this situation. There are also options of putting your child up for adoption if they felt they couldn’t cope with raising a child for whatever reason.

To be frank - that's nonsense. Most women who have unexpected and unwanted pregnancies don't want support, they want NOT TO BE PREGNANT.
All the support in the world won't change that.

It wasnt me123

Poyndexter wrote: »

.......or the near misses like the lady who spoke on the late late the other night.

What about the lady on the LLS who spoke about having to go to England because of FFA and have the remains delivered back to her by DHL or some other courier company. Where is your compassion for this living, breathing woman. It was heart breaking.

I say again, what does it matter to you if a random stranger has an abortion. The lady sitting beside you on the luas, the lady passing you in the corridor at work, the customer saluting you on her way into your business. Her decision to have an abortion makes absolutly zero impact on your life. Zero. You could be surrounded by people who have had abortions and you would never know.

Why should your opinion be more important that someone elses. This amendment is about choice. The woman's choice. Not some randomer making a choice for some stranger they will never meet.

Repeal this amendment - body autonomy for all - not just men.

Hammer Archer

Killester1 wrote: »

What options do the YES side have to offer?

The option that we're voting yes on.
Now what are those solutions to crisis pregnancies you mentioned where the woman wishes to terminate?

pitifulgod

Poyndexter wrote: »

No your mother isn’t like that at all. My point is that politicians only care about image, votes and popularity to keep themselves in a job and their party in power. The fact that Leo wouldn’t come out and publically state his stance on the 8th amendment for so long is testament to this.

The fact that Micheál Martin actually took a position that was rather unpopular within his own party is actually indicative that he decided it was the most moral position.

Poyndexter

ELM327 wrote: »

He's not wrong though.
You fit the mold of a fool.

-Missing the point (it's about repeal, not abortion)
-Reason for voting no - imposing your morals on everyone
-Denial - thinking that voting no stops abortion. 10 per day happen for Irish women in the UK and 43 have happened on Irish soil since the introduction of the Protection of Life during Pregnancy act.
-Penalising everyone, because you care more about enforcing births than you do about women's health, and bodily autonomy.

So, yeah, I think fool pretty much fits the bill of you and your ilk tbh.

When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that. What I can do is vote to save the 8th so that abortion on demand doesn’t take place in this country which is my democratic right.

And if you took your time to calm down instead of calling me names which really diminishes your argument btw youd realise I am in favour of the protection of life during pregnacy act.

Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

Poyndexter

Poyndexter wrote: »

My point is that politicians only care about image, votes and popularity to keep themselves in a job and their party in power. The fact that Leo wouldn’t come out and publically state his stance on the 8th amendment for so long is testament to this.

Keep themselves in a job? If that means doing what the electorate have voted them into do, that's fair enough.
I vote for politicians who will do the people's will. That's the point.

RobertKK

Dr Peter Boylan for the Yes campaign went particularly nasty with a retweet.

Wendy Grace after her successful late late show appearance.
https://twitter.com/wendyannegrace/status/990112806400921601?s=21

Retweeted by Peter Boylan:
https://twitter.com/mike198ryan/status/990189128997326848?s=21

Response by Wendy Grace:
https://twitter.com/wendyannegrace/status/990509764881846274?s=21

Retweet by Wendy Grace:
https://twitter.com/foxiewood/status/990528847031488512?s=21


Peter Boylan did an unnecessary retweet which only reflected badly on him and his yes message. Playing the person and not the ball is always bad play and shows a lack of a good argument.

Timberrrrrrrr

Poyndexter wrote: »

When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that. What I can do is vote to save the 8th so that abortion on demand doesn’t take place in this country which is my democratic right.

And if you took your time to calm down instead of calling me names which really diminishes your argument btw youd realise I am in favour of the protection of life during pregnacy act.

Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

Here we go again :rolleyes:

Poyndexter

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Why should your opinion be more important that someone elses. This amendment is about choice. The woman's choice. Not some randomer making a choice for some stranger they will never meet.

Repeal this amendment - body autonomy for all - not just men.

I am a citizen of this country with one vote. Are you saying I’m not entitled to vote or express an opinion. Sure why don’t we legalise everything so. Ridiculous argument.

ELM327

Poyndexter wrote: »

When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that. What I can do is vote to save the 8th so that abortion on demand doesn’t take place in this country which is my democratic right.

And if you took your time to calm down instead of calling me names which really diminishes your argument btw youd realise I am in favour of the protection of life during pregnacy act.

Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

Calm down? I'm sitting here with my feet up and a cup of tea looking out my balcony on this lovely sunday.

Adoption does not terminate the pregnancy therefore it is not a viable option. Try again.

pitifulgod

RobertKK wrote: »

Dr Peter Boylan for the Yes campaign went particularly nasty with a retweet.

Peter Boylan did an unnecessary retweet which only reflected badly on him and his yes message. Playing the person and not the ball is always bad play and shows a lack of a good argument.

I would view their position on sex education which relates directly to reproductive health to be entirely relevant to the debate. Pure in Heart oppose contraceptives and have a pretty controversial record in terms of the sex education course they ran. So nope, it was relevant, why is she so uncomfortable with it being highlighted? There's no actual lying involved.

Poyndexter

Poyndexter wrote: »

When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that.


Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

You can lobby to get rid of the 13 & 14th amendments, if you feel strongly about protecting the unborn.

Also, adoption? Do you think women should be incubators? Forced to grow children inside them to hang them over to strangers?
Maybe they could charge for it too, I believe the Catholic Church made plenty of money out of this for long enough!

What is your solution for a woman who doesn't wish to be pregnant?

ELM327

Poyndexter wrote: »

I am a citizen of this country with one vote. Are you saying I’m not entitled to vote or express an opinion. Sure why don’t we legalise everything so. Ridiculous argument.

We should legalise a lot of things. But thats not the subject of this thread.
You are an Irish citizen as you state, but you should not have the right to tell another citizen what they can or cannot do with their body or restrict their bodily autonomy.

Poyndexter

ELM327 wrote: »

Calm down? I'm sitting here with my feet up and a cup of tea looking out my balcony on this lovely sunday.

Adoption does not terminate the pregnancy therefore it is not a viable option. Try again.

True but it terminates a baby with a heartbeat and Unfortunately in some cases such ffa and risk of life to mother abortion is the only viable option however in the case of a woman who doesn’t feel she’s ready for a baby there are many more options than abortion.

Poyndexter

ELM327 wrote: »

We should legalise a lot of things. But thats not the subject of this thread.
You are an Irish citizen as you state, but you should not have the right to tell another citizen what they can or cannot do with their body or restrict their bodily autonomy.

So youre saying I shouldn’t have a vote?