The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

SusieBlue

RobertKK wrote: »

I reported this post. I am not doing any more posts tonight as I am too angry with your dismissal of the life of my nephew.
You don't care, whatever about believing.
I posted about it in the past.

I wonder how many people will be tackling you about being disrespectful.

Don't ever reply to me again. You don't care, I get it.

Robert, will all due respect, this isn’t about you. This isn’t about your nephew either.

This is about giving women (you know, 50% of the population???) a choice in their bodily autonomy and the course of their lives.

While I can somewhat appreciate why David’s comment might offend you, I find it really ironic and almost funny that you are getting so offended and angry.
Perhaps now you know how the women of Ireland feel.
It isn’t nice to have your personal experience and feelings disregarded is it?

thee glitz

NuMarvel wrote: »

What the repeal side want is for women who make different choices to be treated in the same way. THAT'S what pro choice is about; not advocating for a particular choice, but advocating that everyone's choice is respected and provided for.

Up to different limits. The pro-choicers aren't particularly concerned about special cases such as FFA. Allowing for abortion in such circumstances only in the case of a repeal vote, and to a lesser extent also including other 'special cases', would bring wider support. This isn't being pushed as an option though - abortion in the case of FFA may remain unavailable due to the efforts of pro-choicers. In the case of retaining the 8th prevailing, a minimum time limit should be agreed upon before holding another referendum on the issue. This would force the government and pro-choicers to have an interest in discovering the true will of the people.

NuMarvel

thee glitz wrote: »

Up to different limits. The pro-choicers aren't particularly concerned about special cases such as FFA. Allowing for abortion in such circumstances only in the case of a repeal vote, and to a lesser extent also including other 'special cases', would bring wider support. This isn't being pushed as an option though - abortion in the case of FFA may remain unavailable due to the efforts of pro-choicers. In the case of retaining the 8th prevailing, a minimum time limit should be agreed upon before holding another referendum on the issue. This would force the government and pro-choicers to have an interest in discovering the true will of the people.

Oh please, as if anti-repealers wouldn't be saying the same things that they're saying now if the government said they'd only legislate for FFA. :rolleyes:

Still, I'm not entirely surprised to see anti-repealers already wanting to wash their hands of the consequences of a successful No campaign. Deep down, you know a No vote won't help anyone, including the unborn, but you can't bring yourself to say that.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

I haven't, what you post is a lie, see we can all say each other is a liar, and I can say you have a repeal agenda in your postings and it doesn't suit that the court didn't blame the 8th amendment in this case, but said what was being by the doctors was wrong.

Of course I support repeal I came from an undecided position to this position based in personal experience and the attitude of the majority of the prolife posters on boards in other discussions on this topic as I said so in my first post.

I have not been shamelessly twisting facts and being disrepectful to the memory of a woman and to her family who were treated disgracefully by the law of the land, just so I can support my opinion, you have Robert and it should shame you that you have done this until you depart this life.

I've tried to have a civil debate with you in relation to the topic but your just not interested in debate.

thee glitz

NuMarvel wrote: »

Oh please, as if anti-repealers wouldn't be saying the same things that they're saying now if the government said they'd only legislate for FFA. :rolleyes:

Where's the harm in finding out? Democracy no?

Still, I'm not entirely surprised to see anti-repealers already wanting to wash their hands of the consequences of a successful No campaign. Deep down, you know a No vote won't help anyone, including the unborn, but you can't bring yourself to say that.

It will be on the hands of those who said abortion for all or for none (except the cases where it's already happening) if retain prevails.

Of course a No vote will help the unborn.

robarmstrong

Who would the Yes vote help then? I'd like to know your answer.

NuMarvel

thee glitz wrote: »

Where's the harm in finding out? Democracy no?

We can already reasonably deduce that. The anti-repeal campaign is predicated in large part on the premise that politicians can't be trusted no matter what, and that's why the 8th needs to stay. I don't think they'd change their tune if the government was only going to legislate for FFA or other exceptions.

But if you want cast iron certainty, then we can just ask you; if the government said they'd only legislate for FFA post repeal, but anti-repeal groups were saying it could lead to "abortion on demand", how would you vote?

thee glitz wrote: »

It will be on the hands of those who said abortion for all or for none (except the cases where it's already happening) if retain prevails.

See, two months out from referendum day, and you're already trying to disown a potential No vote. It'd be funny if it wasn't so serious.

thee glitz wrote: »

Of course a No vote will help the unborn.

If the people vote No, women will continue to have abortions by traveling or importing pills. How is that helping the unborn?

AtomicHorror

Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever changed your position on abortion, in either direction? Genuine question, which I ask because, though I'm now ashamed to say it- I did.

I was pro-life until my early 20's. It was a mostly non-religious position, though I was still somewhat religious at that time. It was a position which I know in retrospect was based on ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance of the realities of women's health, pregnancy and childbirth, ignorance of the medical realities of fetal health, of the legal realities of rape, of the social realities of patriarchy and abuse and coercion... and arrogance, to think I knew best despite my limited knowledge.

Since then I've become highly qualified in the life sciences, but more importantly, gotten know good women who had miscarriages, still births, fatal birth defects, bed rest for risk to their own lives... watched my own wife through two pregnancies and come to the conclusion that nobody should ever be forced to go through all of that if they don't want to. Not for any reason.

robarmstrong

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever changed your position on abortion, in either direction? Genuine question, which I ask because, though I'm now ashamed to say it- I did.

I was pro-life until my early 20's. It was a mostly non-religious position, though I was still somewhat religious at that time. It was a position which I know in retrospect was based on ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance of the realities of women's health, pregnancy and childbirth, ignorance of the medical realities of fetal health, of the legal realities of rape, of the social realities of patriarchy and abuse and coercion... and arrogance, to think I knew best despite my limited knowledge.

Since then I've become highly qualified in the life sciences, but more importantly, gotten know good women who had miscarriages, still births, fatal birth defects, bed rest for risk to their own lives... watched my own wife through two pregnancies and come to the conclusion that nobody should ever be forced to go through all of that if they don't want to. Not for any reason.

You can be pro-life and still want to repeal the 8th.

I'm pro-life in that I personally completely disagree with the notion of abortion, and it sickens me that it exists in the first place.

But it does, and it serves purposes, be they for medical, personal, health, etc. I do disagree with the dramatisation the pro-lifers offer about what really happens during an abortion, and I am highly critical of why they are pro-life but don't give a toss what happens to the baby after they are born, just that they ARE born.

I'm voting for repeal because my partner and I suffered numerous mcs, stillbirth and even had to have an abortion due to her falling pregnant yet her uterine wall physically could not support that baby's growth and development. If we did not have the option of traveling to the UK I would have lost her, and her health and wellbeing are more important to me than any of my personal beliefs or opinions.

Another reason is that we are currently 23 weeks pregnant and expecting a healthy baby girl. I do not want her to suffer as her mother as suffered, and be chased out of her own country to seek a procedure she needs.

amdublin

When I was about 15 in my convent school I thought it was perfectly fine, in fact a good thing, that "you can get acess to information on abortion, you can get access to infomation on travelling, You can even travel if you want to have an abortion, but there is no abortion in Ireland".

Looking back:
I was young, immature in thought, and a little brainwashed.

Edit.
Ps. I'm not pro abortion. Is anyone? But I am pro choice. It is needed sometimes - for a whole host of reasons none of them my business, it is only the womans decision

david75

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever changed your position on abortion, in either direction? Genuine question, which I ask because, though I'm now ashamed to say it- I did.

I was pro-life until my early 20's. It was a mostly non-religious position, though I was still somewhat religious at that time. It was a position which I know in retrospect was based on ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance of the realities of women's health, pregnancy and childbirth, ignorance of the medical realities of fetal health, of the legal realities of rape, of the social realities of patriarchy and abuse and coercion... and arrogance, to think I knew best despite my limited knowledge.

Since then I've become highly qualified in the life sciences, but more importantly, gotten know good women who had miscarriages, still births, fatal birth defects, bed rest for risk to their own lives... watched my own wife through two pregnancies and come to the conclusion that nobody should ever be forced to go through all of that if they don't want to. Not for any reason.

I went back and forth on it my whole life but have never had an opportunity to vote on it. The last people that got to vote on it are now mostly dead or headed that way yet women and families in Ireland are living with their decision affecting them daily.
Then found myself in the situation and she couldn’t have that baby for various reasons and I couldn’t demand she did. We were only kids ourselves and wouldn’t have been fit parents.

It’s purely a decision a woman needs to be able to make for herself alone.
Nobody else has a right to dictate to her neither church nor state nor curtain twitching save the 8th people, who will NOT be there after the fact. If they were so concerned truly they’d have all sorts of funds and organisations to help women in that situation and fact is they don’t.

That alone was enough to bring me to repeal. The hypocrisy and utter hysteria and stupidity they come out with would turn anyone off supporting them.

But the real stories and heartbreak in all the case were hearing about the never ending damage to women should be enough for anyone to vote to repeal.

AtomicHorror

robarmstrong wrote: »

You can be pro-life and still want to repeal the 8th.

Quite right- I used their name to describe my position. Let's say I was anti-choice then, in the sense that I did not agree with it, was convinced that nobody else should either and did not accept the rationale for allowing women to have choice.

robarmstrong wrote: »

I'm pro-life in that I personally completely disagree with the notion of abortion, and it sickens me that it exists in the first place.

But it does, and it serves purposes, be they for medical, personal, health, etc. I do disagree with the dramatisation the pro-lifers offer about what really happens during an abortion, and I am highly critical of why they are pro-life but don't give a toss what happens to the baby after they are born, just that they ARE born.

I'm voting for repeal because my partner and I suffered numerous mcs, stillbirth and even had to have an abortion due to her falling pregnant yet her uterine wall physically could not support that baby's growth and development. If we did not have the option of traveling to the UK I would have lost her, and her health and wellbeing are more important to me than any of my personal beliefs or opinions.

Another reason is that we are currently 23 weeks pregnant and expecting a healthy baby girl. I do not want her to suffer as her mother as suffered, and be chased out of her own country to seek a procedure she needs.

A similar position to my own, though I've been fortunate to never need to make that journey with my wife. So sorry to hear of yours and your partner's hard times- I've known many with the same saddening stories.

The best of luck for the months to come. Not easy for sure, but ultimately so rewarding!

neonsofa

I used to be pro life when younger then i changed my mind. When I experienced an unplanned pregnancy myself I chose not to terminate, despite being pro choice at that stage, as it didn't sit right with me personally at that time in my own circumstances. It hasn't changed my view, I am still pro choice. I made my own choice and other women should be able to do the same.

baylah17

neonsofa wrote: »

I used to be pro life when younger then i changed my mind. When I experienced an unplanned pregnancy myself I chose not to terminate, despite being pro choice at that stage, as it didn't sit right with me personally at that time in my own circumstances. It hasn't changed my view, I am still pro choice. I made my own choice and other women should be able to do the same.

Excellent post that cuts straight to the nub of the issue which is women's right to choose.

amdublin

neonsofa wrote: »

I used to be pro life when younger then i changed my mind. When I experienced an unplanned pregnancy myself I chose not to terminate, despite being pro choice at that stage, as it didn't sit right with me personally at that time in my own circumstances. It hasn't changed my view, I am still pro choice. I made my own choice and other women should be able to do the same.

THIS.

when i was young i was pro life, but that is because i had no idea of the grey areas.

its easy for young people brought up a certain way to say 'abortion is bad'
but, as you grow older & find out more about the world you see more grey areas.

the 8th is not just about abortion, its about a lot more. there is a lot more grey in the world than black or white

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever changed your position on abortion, in either direction? Genuine question, which I ask because, though I'm now ashamed to say it- I did.

I was pro-life until my early 20's. It was a mostly non-religious position, though I was still somewhat religious at that time. It was a position which I know in retrospect was based on ignorance and arrogance. Ignorance of the realities of women's health, pregnancy and childbirth, ignorance of the medical realities of fetal health, of the legal realities of rape, of the social realities of patriarchy and abuse and coercion... and arrogance, to think I knew best despite my limited knowledge.

Since then I've become highly qualified in the life sciences, but more importantly, gotten know good women who had miscarriages, still births, fatal birth defects, bed rest for risk to their own lives... watched my own wife through two pregnancies and come to the conclusion that nobody should ever be forced to go through all of that if they don't want to. Not for any reason.

I would have been when I was very young, as in an actual child. And when I started to question it it would have been along the lines of "oh well maybe for rape and incest and stuff, why can't they just have it adopted" kind of thing, I wasn't really intellectually engaged.

Someone very close to me had an abortion ten (and a half) years ago and that really got me having to properly think about it. At that point I was 18, and obviously I ended up knowing more women who had to travel, being sexually active myself and the full reality of what the 8th meant hitting home. Looked into the biology of pregnancy (I'm not hugely scientifically literate but I'm not stupid), the history of abortion and so on.

It's something I've probably thought about more than any other opinion I hold.

My mam actually won an award for a pro-life essay she wrote back in secondary school, she'd now out-pro-choice me I'd say. She'd have been in secondary school in '83. Wee bit of propagandising went on. She'd have got the same at home too.

kylith

I was pro-life in secondary school until my boyfriend and I were approached to sign a pro-life petition in town one day. He refused to and I asked why; that’s when he told me that if his mother hadn’t had an abortion in her teens she would never have gone to college, gotten a qualification, gotten a job that meant moving to our town where she met his dad and had a family.

Before that I only considered that abortion killed babies. The realisation that someone I loved wouldn’t exist and that his mother’s life would have been a hell of a lot worse opened my eyes to how crisis pregnancies affect people’s lives.

applehunter

kylith wrote: »

I was pro-life in secondary school until my boyfriend and I were approached to sign a pro-life petition in town one day. He refused to and I asked why; that’s when he told me that if his mother hadn’t had an abortion in her teens she would never have gone to college, gotten a qualification, gotten a job that meant moving to our town where she met his dad and had a family.

Before that I only considered that abortion killed babies. The realisation that someone I loved wouldn’t exist and that his mother’s life would have been a hell of a lot worse opened my eyes to how crisis pregnancies affect people’s lives.

Thanks for that.

It's like a Jack & Rose and the Titanic analogy.

david75

applehunter wrote: »

Thanks for that.

It's like a Jack & Rose and the Titanic analogy.

She Dehumanised that poor guy then killed him By leaving him to die. There was plenty of room on that door.

But guess what? That’s none of my business or yours either

robarmstrong

applehunter wrote: »

Thanks for that.

It's like a Jack & Rose and the Titanic analogy.

Elaborate. Making fun of someone's personal story or what's the craic here?

Edward M

This thread is getting dangerous.

pleas advice

When you were young and your heart
Was an open book
You used to say live and let live
(You know you did)

david75

pleas advice wrote: »

When you were young and your heart
Was an open book
You used to say live and let live
(You know you did)

So following that (awful song choice written by a lifelong heroin addict) you should be ok letting women make their own decisions and mind your own business, no?

applehunter

robarmstrong wrote: »

Elaborate. Making fun of someone's personal story or what's the craic here?

Yes,

Hardly the stuff of Mills & Boon.

robarmstrong

applehunter wrote: »

Yes,

Hardly the stuff of Mills & Boon.

Cool, just looking for confirmation to throw down the aul report.

Anything to actually contribute or are you just here to make fun of people's personal experiences with abortion and it's circumstances surrounding it?

applehunter

robarmstrong wrote: »

Cool, just looking for confirmation to throw down the aul report.

Anything to actually contribute or are you just here to make fun of people's personal experiences with abortion and it's circumstances surrounding it?

I hope your aul report is giving you some perspective.

I have contributed to this topic plenty. I am perfectly entitled to ridicule/find the funny side of any post on here just as you are.

Kind Regards,

robarmstrong

applehunter wrote: »

I hope your aul report is giving you some perspective.

I have contributed to this topic plenty. I am perfectly entitled to ridicule/find the funny side of any post on here just as you are.

Kind Regards,

Should give you some fairly soon.

So you find that posters experience regarding abortion funny?

I don't find anyone's experience regarding abortion here funny as I am not a gobsh!te.

applehunter

david75 wrote: »

She Dehumanised that poor guy then killed him By leaving him to die. There was plenty of room on that door.

I agree. She has admitted it 80 years later on US Cable television.

david75 wrote: »

But guess what? That’s none of my business or yours either

My logic states I must route for Jack to be allowed on that door.

david75

applehunter wrote: »

I agree. She has admitted it 80 years later on US Cable television.



My logic states I must route for Jack to be allowed on that door.

Your logic and your joke face a similar fate as that Illfated ship.

I got it. But time and place.