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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #9572
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    I can't even.


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    #9573
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    I am a citizen of this country with one vote. Are you saying I’m not entitled to vote or express an opinion. Sure why don’t we legalise everything so. Ridiculous argument.

    I'm not the one being ridiculous, you are. You are trying to push your opinion on everyone. Repealing the 8th gives everyone the choice - please vote that is your democratic right I'm just not sure why you think your choice is more important than someone you may never meet.

    And just for your information, I didn't say legalise everything, I'm talking about legislation for society - for everyone. That is what TDs do. Where do you think the laws come from?


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    #9574
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    amdublin wrote: »
    It will impact my emotional well-being if repeal doesn't pass. Like I will be devastated on the day. There will be tears.

    And it will take me some while to get over it.

    If No wins at last they are kind of prepared for that. It will be a massive shock for us Yes side.

    But I am out canvassing every week. I am hearing resounding Yes on the doorsteps.

    Every yes counts on the day. Please tell your family and friends how important it is for you that they get out on the day and vote for you.

    I completely agree. Genuinely, I will be upset if Yes doesn't win. This means a lot to me.

    Repeal the 8th.


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    #9575
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One can only get an unwanted pregnancy via chastity if one doesn't practice it or is raped.
    In Uganda it was found the ABC program for sex education was the most effective means when it came to sex and the spread od HIV/AIDS:
    A for Abstinence
    B for Be faithful
    C for condoms if one can't do A or B.
    This is a sex education program that all should be taught, it is backed up by evidence and would likely reduce the rate of abortion, just as it reduced HIV/Aids levels in African countries where it was promoted.
    From a medical journal: http://pmj.bmj.com/content/81/960/625
    Abstinence, being faithful, and condom use are complementary, synergistic, and inseparable components in the country’s HIV/AIDS national prevention and control programmes, and we need to roll out these prevention messages with extra urgency now, in the era of AR
    I believe it would reduce crisis pregnancies and subsequently abortion. For some abstinence is ignored as part of a wider sexual education program.
    Abstinence is unrealistic.
    Being faithful, you can't regulate someone's sex life.
    Condoms have an approximate 92-95% real world effectiveness rating.

    What options do you propose for the 5-8%, or the raped?
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Thank you for the apology.

    Does it include calling me John even though you know it is not my name?
    One cannot know what your name is if it is not volunteered.
    You and I are surely both aware of the point I was making calling you John.

    And this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, alas again I have fallen into your side's tactic of shock and/or diversion.


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    #9576
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    erica74 wrote: »
    I completely agree. Genuinely, I will be upset if Yes doesn't win. This means a lot to me.

    Repeal the 8th.
    Same here.
    This is the only political cause I've ever donated to.

    #repealthe8th
    #togetherforyes
    #trustourwomen


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    #9577
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One can only get an unwanted pregnancy via chastity if one doesn't practice it or is raped.
    In Uganda it was found the ABC program for sex education was the most effective means when it came to sex and the spread od HIV/AIDS:
    A for Abstinence
    B for Be faithful
    C for condoms if one can't do A or B.
    This is a sex education program that all should be taught, it is backed up by evidence and would likely reduce the rate of abortion, just as it reduced HIV/Aids levels in African countries where it was promoted.
    From a medical journal: http://pmj.bmj.com/content/81/960/625
    Abstinence, being faithful, and condom use are complementary, synergistic, and inseparable components in the country’s HIV/AIDS national prevention and control programmes, and we need to roll out these prevention messages with extra urgency now, in the era of AR
    I believe it would reduce crisis pregnancies and subsequently abortion. For some abstinence is ignored as part of a wider sexual education program.

    So your back to don't have sex, you dirty slut?

    How does saying "well, you shouldn't have rode him!" Actually help anyone that is in a crisis pregnancy?


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    #9578
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Abstinence is unrealistic.
    Being faithful, you can't regulate someone's sex life.
    Condoms have an approximate 92-95% real world effectiveness rating.

    What options do you propose for the 5-8%, or the raped?


    One cannot know what your name is if it is not volunteered.
    You and I are surely both aware of the point I was making calling you John.

    And this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, alas again I have fallen into your side's tactic of shock and/or diversion.

    People can regulate their own sex lives within an ABC program in a general population and it has being shown to be effective.
    The ABC program is for general population use, one can't regulate their own sex practices if a person is being raped.

    My name is Robert, why can't you accept that?
    I have been a poster here long before you arrived on the scene.


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    #9579
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One can only get an unwanted pregnancy via chastity if one doesn't practice it or is raped.
    In Uganda it was found the ABC program for sex education was the most effective means when it came to sex and the spread od HIV/AIDS:
    A for Abstinence
    B for Be faithful
    C for condoms if one can't do A or B.
    This is a sex education program that all should be taught, it is backed up by evidence and would likely reduce the rate of abortion, just as it reduced HIV/Aids levels in African countries where it was promoted.
    From a medical journal: http://pmj.bmj.com/content/81/960/625
    Abstinence, being faithful, and condom use are complementary, synergistic, and inseparable components in the country’s HIV/AIDS national prevention and control programmes, and we need to roll out these prevention messages with extra urgency now, in the era of AR
    I believe it would reduce crisis pregnancies and subsequently abortion. For some abstinence is ignored as part of a wider sexual education program.

    They actively oppose condoms... So it's entirely relevant to the discussion that she's a member of such a group... Also, they only teach abstinence which is pretty ill advised and does increase unwanted pregnancies...


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    #9580
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    So your back to don't have sex, you dirty slut?

    How does saying "well, you shouldn't have rode him!" Actually help anyone that is in a crisis pregnancy?

    Where does it say that?
    Where?

    Is using condoms not having sex?

    Some people just look for an argument when there is no need for making an irrelevant argument.


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    #9581
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    RobertKK wrote: »
    One can only get an unwanted pregnancy via chastity if one doesn't practice it or is raped.
    In Uganda it was found the ABC program for sex education was the most effective means when it came to sex and the spread od HIV/AIDS:
    A for Abstinence
    B for Be faithful
    C for condoms if one can't do A or B.
    This is a sex education program that all should be taught, it is backed up by evidence and would likely reduce the rate of abortion, just as it reduced HIV/Aids levels in African countries where it was promoted.
    From a medical journal: http://pmj.bmj.com/content/81/960/625
    Abstinence, being faithful, and condom use are complementary, synergistic, and inseparable components in the country’s HIV/AIDS national prevention and control programmes, and we need to roll out these prevention messages with extra urgency now, in the era of AR
    I believe it would reduce crisis pregnancies and subsequently abortion. For some abstinence is ignored as part of a wider sexual education program.

    There have been extensive studies of chastity based sexual education programs in the US. The conclusion is that chastity based sex education results in a rapid rise in the rate of teen pregnancy.

    Any group preaching chastity based which is also anti choice is walking on moral quicksand. It's an indefensible stance.


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    #9582
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    People can regulate their own sex lives within an ABC program in a general population and it has being shown to be effective.
    The ABC program is for general population use, one can't regulate their own sex practices if a person is being raped.

    My name is Robert, why can't you accept that?
    I have been a poster here long before you arrived on the scene.

    And then the condom fails? What happens then? Tough ****?


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    #9583
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    They actively oppose condoms... So it's entirely relevant to the discussion that she's a member of such a group...

    But I would argue it has a role in a wider sexual education program.


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    #9584
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    People can regulate their own sex lives within an ABC program in a general population and it has being shown to be effective.
    The ABC program is for general population use, one can't regulate their own sex practices if a person is being raped.
    So once again, you've decided how every woman should live?
    RobertKK wrote: »
    My name is Robert, why can't you accept that?
    Never mind. ROBERT.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    I have been a poster here long before you arrived on the scene.
    Irrelevant.


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    #9585
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,749 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    January wrote: »
    And then the condom fails? What happens then? Tough ****?

    Does it automatically mean a pregnancy? Are condoms the only contraception that can be used?


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    #9586
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    Ok guys to be honest I came on here to post and give my opinion on the matter but the level of vitriol, hate and lack of respect is something else. It’s an online forum supposed to be for some serious and light hearted discussion. I’ve given my views and some have respectfully engaged in informed debate with me while others would want to have a look at themselves. Not naming names but you know yourself.

    As I said myself in my first post I wanted to give my reasons for voting no so people can understand where the no side are coming from but it’s as if if walked into the middle of a liberal feminist conference. No wonder there’s little to no debate here and it all just ends in bitter insults, lies and hysterics if anyone dares go against the consensus.

    There are people on both sides of the campaign who take things too far at times, but the majority of posters in this thread are debating the issue with you. That's not the same as spewing hatred.

    I get that there are a lot of No voters who are well meaning and believe that their view is the morally correct one. It's easy to default to that position in Ireland given our history and the stranglehold the church has had over society for so many decades. Even though many people would now consider themselves non-religious, there is a subtle cultural hangover from the past. I grew up in a Catholic house where abortion was seen as wrong and the killing of innocent babies. As a teen I never questioned that, nor did I have any reason to.

    Then life happened. I grew up, got more life experience, and opened my mind. Had a scare myself (I was on the pill at the time) with a boyfriend who was adamant he didn't want a baby. Given my own upbringing, I was really uncomfortable with the idea of abortion but I knew I would have no support in bringing up a baby. I didn't know what I would do if I was pregnant. In the end it was just a scare, but it made me realise that it's impossible to say with any certainty what you would or wouldn't do in a situation until you're in it.

    I decided to educate myself, read up on the medical facts, and decide where I can draw the line. From doing this, I realised pretty quickly that a foetus of less that 12 weeks cannot be considered as valuable as the life of an actual born person. At that early stage it is not a sentient being and it cannot feel pain. As the pregnancy goes on, of course the foetus develops towards being an actual baby, but under 12 weeks it is very much a potential life.

    For me, while I can be respectful towards people with a different view to me, I do find some No voters frustrating. Mainly because many of them just default to the 'abortion is bad' position without really questioning it or trying to put themselves in someone else's shoes. As a woman, it drives me nuts that in Ireland we are denied the rights we would have if we lived in just about any other developed country (and many developing ones) just because a cohort of people want us to live by their values. Values which they would probably question if they or their daughters had a crisis pregnancy.


  • Options
    #9587
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Does it automatically mean a pregnancy?
    The potential is there, exponentially higher than if not.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Are condoms the only contraception that can be used?
    What else have you decided women should use?
    Mini Pill? Approx 92% effective in real world use.
    Combination pill? Slightly more effective but they have increased risk of blood clots and other hormonal side effects.


    Would we be having a "repeal" debate if this was about vasectomies and not abortions?


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    #9588
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Does it automatically mean a pregnancy? Are condoms the only contraception that can be used?

    I think the point being made is that saying ‘you should use contraception’ is of zero help or practicality to someone who is already pregnant.

    Shoulda woulda coulda. That horse has bolted.


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    #9589
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Does it automatically mean a pregnancy? Are condoms the only contraception that can be used?

    Ok, so the condom fails and the woman takes the morning after pill and it doesn't work. Then what?


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    #9590
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Here's some info on how abstinence only education does not work and has no impact upon sexual activity. So the retweet by Boylan was entirely relevant. Imagine Robert will just ignore this though.

    https://www.gse.upenn.edu/news/does-abstinence-only-education-work


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    #9591
    iguana
    Registered Users Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    True but it terminates a baby with a heartbeat.

    No it doesn't. It terminates an embryo with a heartbeat or in rare cases a foetus with a heartbeat. It does not terminate a baby as there is no baby at that point. Why do you think pro-lifers focus on the heartbeat? Because they can't talk about brain activity or sentience. A heartbeat means very little at all, fruitflies and earthworms have heartbeats.


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    #9592
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    iguana wrote: »
    No it doesn't. It terminates an embryo with a heartbeat or in rare cases a foetus with a heartbeat. It does not terminate a baby as there is no baby at that point. Why do you think pro-lifers focus on the heartbeat? Because they can't talk about brain activity or sentience. A heartbeat means very little at all, fruitflies and earthworms have heartbeats.
    +1
    Hearts grown from test tubes and petri dishes can have heartbeats.
    Heartbeat =/= sentience


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    #9593
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    iguana wrote: »
    No it doesn't. It terminates an embryo with a heartbeat or in rare cases a foetus with a heartbeat. It does not terminate a baby as there is no baby at that point. Why do you think pro-lifers focus on the heartbeat? Because they can't talk about brain activity or sentience. A heartbeat means very little at all, fruitflies and earthworms have heartbeats.
    i suppose it could be regarded as a point that a 'clump of cells' becomes an actively living thing...

    (that 'thing' is a human entity. It really shouldn't have to be said, but it probably does)


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    #9594
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    pleas advice wrote: »
    i suppose it could be regarded as a point that a 'clump of cells' becomes an actively living thing...

    No, it becomes an actively living thing when it can survive independently of the person carrying it.


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    #9595
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RobertKK wrote: »
    . For some abstinence is ignored as part of a wider sexual education program.

    Do you believe adults una relationship should practise abstinence?


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    #9596
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    pleas advice wrote: »
    i suppose it could be regarded as a point that a 'clump of cells' becomes an actively living thing...

    (that 'thing' is a human entity. It really shouldn't have to be said, but it probably does)
    It becomes a human entity at the point of viability. Not before.


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    #9597
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    January wrote: »
    No, it becomes an actively living thing when it can survive independently of the person carrying it.
    so a fetus yawning, kicking, in the womb is not active?


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    #9598
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,990 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    pleas advice wrote: »
    so a fetus yawning, kicking, in the womb is not active?
    Active?
    Trees are active, it doesn't give them sentience.
    We are considering human sentient being as the criteria. Not "active".
    Cats can yawn and kick. Are they human?
    If you trigger a nerve in a dead person, they will kick. Is that sentience?


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    #9599
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    pleas advice wrote: »
    so a fetus yawning, kicking, in the womb is not active?

    Is it living? At less than 12 weeks, can it live independently outside of my body?

    Your emotive language won't wash with me, I'm well aware of the developmental stages a foetus goes through. Pregnancy and birth is my profession so it's my job to know them. That doesn't mean they can live independent of the person carrying it. They're reflexes at that stage.


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    #9600
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    ELM327 wrote: »
    It becomes a human entity at the point of viability. Not before.

    it is a genetically separate human entity, thats basic biology...


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    #9601
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    January wrote: »
    Your emotive language won't wash with me, ...

    emotive? just stating plain facts.


This discussion has been closed.
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