The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

ELM327

pleas advice wrote: »

it is a genetically separate human entity, thats basic biology...

Back to this again :rolleyes:
Care to give a legal definition for "human entity"?
The only legal status is "person" which is conferred at birth.
They give certificates and everything. That's basic biology.

January

pleas advice wrote: »

emotive? just stating plain facts.

No, you're using emotive language to try to trigger a response from people who may be undecided in what way they are going to use their vote.

Yawning and kicking at that stage of development are reflexes, they mean nothing more than there are synapses from nerves developing are triggering responses in muscles in the foetus and the muscles are responding to those nerve triggers. That doesn't mean that the foetus is living.

pleas advice

ELM327 wrote: »

We are considering human sentient being as the criteria.

who is this 'we'?

pleas advice

January wrote: »

That doesn't mean that the foetus is living.

it patently is living, why deny this? what purpose does that serve?

January

pleas advice wrote: »

it patently is living, why deny this? what purpose does that serve?

It's not living. It is being supported by the person carrying it while it grows. If it were to be removed would it live?

kylith

pleas advice wrote: »

it is a genetically separate human entity, thats basic biology...

Irrelevant. While it is dependant on the woman’s body it is not physically separate and the woman should get to decide if she is happy to have it in her womb.

NuMarvel

pleas advice wrote: »

it is a genetically separate human entity, thats basic biology...

So, to bring us back on topic, when do you think the right to life should begin? And what rights should a pregnant woman retain during the pregnancy?

pleas advice

January wrote: »

It's not living. It is being supported by the person carrying it while it grows. If it were to be removed would it live?

if it were removed would it die?

pleas advice

kylith wrote: »

Irrelevant. While it is dependant on the woman’s body it is not physically separate and the woman should get to decide if she is happy to have it in her womb.

if it's irrelevant, why deny the fact?

nice_guy80

I'm actually thinking of joining one of these NO campaigns just to expose some of the lies and false information going on

mohawk

Killester1 wrote: »

Why wait till it happens!!! Take control of your body. That’s what the YES want isn’t it ....my body my choice ..... everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions and not have abortion as the fall back.

Interestingly this post appears to assume I don't use protection when having sex.
If you could point me in the direction of the contraceptive which 100% prevents pregnancy then I would be enternally grateful.

NuMarvel

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'm actually thinking of joining one of these NO campaigns just to expose some of the lies and false information going on

If you have the time to spare, join your local yes group instead. It'll be more productive and beneficial in the long run.

_Dara_

Flying Fox wrote: »

I get that there are a lot of No voters who are well meaning and believe that their view is the morally correct one. It's easy to default to that position in Ireland given our history and the stranglehold the church has had over society for so many decades. Even though many people would now consider themselves non-religious, there is a subtle cultural hangover from the past. I grew up in a Catholic house where abortion was seen as wrong and the killing of innocent babies. As a teen I never questioned that, nor did I have any reason to.

Great post, Flying Fox. And YES. When people say "It's nothing to do with religion. I'm not religious and oppose abortion!", I just think to myself "But you're a cultural Catholic". Facets of the religion can still be engrained in your psyche.

Flying Fox wrote: »

Then life happened. I grew up, got more life experience, and opened my mind. Had a scare myself (I was on the pill at the time) with a boyfriend who was adamant he didn't want a baby. Given my own upbringing, I was really uncomfortable with the idea of abortion but I knew I would have no support in bringing up a baby. I didn't know what I would do if I was pregnant. In the end it was just a scare, but it made me realise that it's impossible to say with any certainty what you would or wouldn't do in a situation until you're in it.

Yeah, I have an English acquaintance who is anti-abortion. She is forever reacting to my posts about Repeal with the sad face reaction emoji. It really pisses me off. She lives in a country where it is available to her. She has the choice. And she might change her tune if she has a crisis pregnancy. And if she does change her tune, the option is there for her. We don't have that luxury.

January

pleas advice wrote: »

if it were removed would it die?

If you remove the life support from a brain dead person do they die? Does that mean they're living? Or their life is being supported?

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Governments have power to legislate over so many aspects of your life that it seems strange to me that you'd have a problem with this one specific area. We give the government the power to increase income tax to 98%, reduce the age of consent to 8 or to declare war on our neighbouring countries. Yet life continues happily and peacefully despite these powers the government has.

Ultimately if any government brings in social legislation that the people absolutely abhor then it will be repealed by the subsequent government who will be elected in a landslide.

With all due respect, it seems equally strange to me that anyone would vote to repeal an article in the Constitution, while simultaneously giving pretty much Carte Blanche to this, or future Governments, to change legislation at will.

NuMarvel wrote: »

They won't have full control. That power remains with the people, as it does with all matters or legislation and Government policy. We've seen that in the recent past, with u-turns on water charges, and ownership of the new maternity hospital. Referendums aren't the only way the people can make their views were; in fact, if you're of the view that politicians can't be trusted, then referendums are an awful way to control them, because referendums can only be called by politicians in the first place.

And unlike the Seanad referendum, the legislative power isn't something that will bring any kind of advantage to whoever is in government at the time. It won't make it easier for them to pass legislation, and it won't give them any kind of electoral advantage.

We elect politicians to legislate; that's their job. If you don't trust politicians do to that job properly, then the answer is elect better politicians. Because the last 35 years have shown us that putting complex issues into the constitution doesn't work.

So, if legislation is changed to allow abortion on demand up to the point where a foetus is considered viable, and, accordingly, past the point where many people are comfortable with abortion on demand, you think that's comparable to water charges? Really?

I suspect a lot of people really wouldn't rate abortion on demand, and water charges, with the same level of importance, tbh.

You're entirely correct that I don't trust politicians. However, I can only cast one vote. I cannot control who is ultimately elected.

ELM327 wrote: »

We should legalise a lot of things. But thats not the subject of this thread.
You are an Irish citizen as you state, but you should not have the right to tell another citizen what they can or cannot do with their body or restrict their bodily autonomy.

That's an interesting viewpoint from someone who is pro choice.
Surely the poster has the right to make a choice about how they vote.
It's one of the basic principles of Democracy.

Moiratat wrote: »

"I was not in good health, my mind was a toxic place of hatred and depression from my family and boyfriend abusing me. My mother an alcoholic to put it lightly left for weeks on end, leaving me with my baby brother and 3 younger sisters and no food or money. My older sister was never home and if she was she would only abuse us further (my older sister having sexually abused me and them). I "had" my boyfriend at the time, he abused me physically and mentally and it got to a stage where he would rape me and call me a slut or a whore afterwards. I became pregnant. My told my boyfriend and he tried to kill my baby by beating me, by forcing me to drink alcohol and many other ways, his family were stern Catholics. To me I wanted my baby, I wanted to be able to keep him or her and love them ,I still do love them but I had to look after my siblings which I couldn't do if my mother kicked me out which she would have. And I would have liked to have given my baby the best life possible and couldn't if I was kicked out and even at that point my baby could've been seriously hurt. My boyfriend threatened me that if I did not go to England he would kill me. So I did and I miss my baby terribly but I had to do what I did. Am I a murderer because of it or a killer? Every time I go out and see one of the no posters I want to end my life. I feel so much shame and disgust at myself. I had to leave my home to say goodbye to my baby, because of the eighth."
My situation, I would never call someone stupid because there opinion differed to mine but at the same time, the no side throw around the words murder and killing as if women are monsters, am I a monster because of what I have done? I still feel love for my child and every time I go outside I am bombarded by posters insinuating I am a murderer. What is your opinion on my situation? On the situation of women in abusive relationships that get pregnant?

No. You absolutely are not a murderer, nor should you feel that you are some kind of monster.

You are a survivor of serious abuse. Both you, and your baby, are victims of abusive people.

I'm a "No" voter - and I would never have anything but the utmost compassion for you.

Please don't be offended by what I say below. I only say it out of concern for you, and a desire to reach out and offer sympathy and compassion.
I don't know what your current situation is. I genuinely hope you're in a better situation now.
If not, please get help. No-one should ever be placed in your situation. It is/was horrible - and a damning indictment on how your Mother, your Sister, your Boyfriend and Social services all failed you.

Fair play to you for taking care of your siblings. I have nothing but admiration for you that you survived such awful circumstances, but the fact that you seem to wonder whether people consider you a monster makes me wonder if you've ever discussed your problems with a normal, compassionate Human being?

BTW, neither your boyfriend, nor his family, are "Stern Catholics". They're hypocrites, who call themselves Catholic without having any concept of the first requirement of Christianity - which is Love, not abuse.

Feel free to p.m me, if you want to chat in private. I'm not sure what I can do to help, but I can guarantee that I will neither judge nor condemn you, if that's any help.
Take care of yourself - and don't think for a minute that people will regard you as a monster. Anyone who would think like that isn't worth worrying about, because that kind of viewpoint reflects badly on them more than you, as far as I'm concerned.

kylith

pleas advice wrote: »

if it's irrelevant, why deny the fact?

No one has denied that it is genetically distinct. However, it is not ‘alive’ in anything other than the biological sense, and nowhere near as alive as the woman carrying it who IS sentient and conscious. Why should it get priority over her?

Mrsmum

January wrote: »

If you remove the life support from a brain dead person do they die? Does that mean they're living? Or their life is being supported?

Imagine if you knew such a life supported person would recover perfectly in 6 to 8 months. Imagine switching off their life support.

On a different issue I'm beginning to feel my own doctor and the doctors and midwives in the maternity hospital I attended did me a disservice when they and not I repeatedly called the contents of my womb a baby. In fact in the Rotunda their favourite term the four times I attended for my children and the five times I attended for miscarriages was 'baba my surname'. To the point that of course now I am totally struggling it see it as not a 'baba' but rather a nothing that can be aborted. Dr Boylan and Co should start a campaign to educate all women that it's only a fetus or a non sentient being so nothing to get all excited or devastated about until it is actually born.

robarmstrong

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imagine if you knew such a life supported person would recover perfectly in 6 to 8 months. Imagine switching off their life support.

On a different issue I'm beginning to feel my own doctor and the doctors and midwives in the maternity hospital I attended did me a disservice when they and not I repeatedly called the contents of my womb a baby. In fact in the Rotunda their favourite term the four times I attended for my children and the five times I attended for miscarriages was 'baba my surname'. To the point that of course now I am totally struggling it see it as not a 'baba' but rather a nothing that can be aborted. Dr Boylan and Co should start a campaign to educate all women that it's only a fetus or a non sentient being so nothing to get all excited or devastated about until it is actually born.

They did that for me and my partner too. Mainly because miscarriages are a lot different than abortions, miscarriages being accidental loss of a baby that was very clearly wanted, meaning there was an emotional attachment of calling it "baba".

I called all the fetuses my partner miscarriages my "babies" since she widdled on a stick, it doesn't mean that legally they were "babies".

joe40

Iochlach you said nice things to the poster that talked about her dreadful situation. You may not call her a murderer but according to your opinion she is a criminal. She carried out a procedure which is currently a crime to do in this country.
You want to keep that law therefore you think she is a criminal. No voters can't have it everyway.
I almost have more respect for the hardcore anti abortionists at least they are consistent.
I would say if you can't vote yes then keep your sympathy.

January

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imagine if you knew such a life supported person would recover perfectly in 6 to 8 months. Imagine switching off their life support.

On a different issue I'm beginning to feel my own doctor and the doctors and midwives in the maternity hospital I attended did me a disservice when they and not I repeatedly called the contents of my womb a baby. In fact in the Rotunda their favourite term the four times I attended for my children and the five times I attended for miscarriages was 'baba my surname'. To the point that of course now I am totally struggling it see it as not a 'baba' but rather a nothing that can be aborted. Dr Boylan and Co should start a campaign to educate all women that it's only a fetus or a non sentient being so nothing to get all excited or devastated about until it is actually born.

So, we're back to the women should just be incubators part?

Mrsmum

January wrote: »

So, we're back to the women should just be incubators part?

I see two lives in the equation. The woman is her child's 'life support' as you put it. To switch off that life support is wrong imo.

Look we all come at it from our own perspectives. Calling women incubators imo minimises completely the creation of a human being.

Sofiztikated

kylith wrote: »

So you think a woman should have a permanent reminder of her rape. What do you think that will do to her mental health?

To be honest, if a woman can take something positive out of that situation, it should be up to her.

January

Mrsmum wrote: »

I see two lives in the equation. The woman is her child's 'life support' as you put it. To switch off that life support is wrong imo.

Look we all come at it from our own perspectives. Calling women incubators imo minimises completely the creation of a human being.

I've created 4 human beings. I don't want to create any more. I don't want to stop having sex with my husband for the next 14 (at least) years. Give me your solution to my problem?

(Don't say use contraception, we already practice safe sex).

kylith

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be honest, if a woman can take something positive out of that situation, it should be up to her.

Yes, it should be up to her. If she doesn’t want to proceed with the pregnancy that should also be her choice.

Timberrrrrrrr

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be honest, if a woman can take something positive out of that situation, it should be up to her.

Wow!!!


Just.....wow!!!


The anti choice side have hit a new low that I thought they could never reach!

Moiratat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With all due respect, it seems equally strange to me that anyone would vote to repeal an article in the Constitution, while simultaneously giving pretty much Carte Blanche to this, or future Governments, to change legislation at will.





So, if legislation is changed to allow abortion on demand up to the point where a foetus is considered viable, and, accordingly, past the point where many people are comfortable with abortion on demand, you think that's comparable to water charges? Really?

I suspect a lot of people really wouldn't rate abortion on demand, and water charges, with the same level of importance, tbh.

You're entirely correct that I don't trust politicians. However, I can only cast one vote. I cannot control who is ultimately elected.





That's an interesting viewpoint from someone who is pro choice.
Surely the poster has the right to make a choice about how they vote.
It's one of the basic principles of Democracy.



No. You absolutely are not a murderer, nor should you feel that you are some kind of monster.

You are a survivor of serious abuse. Both you, and your baby, are victims of abusive people.

I'm a "No" voter - and I would never have anything but the utmost compassion for you.

Please don't be offended by what I say below. I only say it out of concern for you, and a desire to reach out and offer sympathy and compassion.
I don't know what your current situation is. I genuinely hope you're in a better situation now.
If not, please get help. No-one should ever be placed in your situation. It is/was horrible - and a damning indictment on how your Mother, your Sister, your Boyfriend and Social services all failed you.

Fair play to you for taking care of your siblings. I have nothing but admiration for you that you survived such awful circumstances, but the fact that you seem to wonder whether people consider you a monster makes me wonder if you've ever discussed your problems with a normal, compassionate Human being?

BTW, neither your boyfriend, nor his family, are "Stern Catholics". They're hypocrites, who call themselves Catholic without having any concept of the first requirement of Christianity - which is Love, not abuse.

Feel free to p.m me, if you want to chat in private. I'm not sure what I can do to help, but I can guarantee that I will neither judge nor condemn you, if that's any help.
Take care of yourself - and don't think for a minute that people will regard you as a monster. Anyone who would think like that isn't worth worrying about, because that kind of viewpoint reflects badly on them more than you, as far as I'm concerned.

I have not spoken about this to anyone in real life, simply because of the shame and guilt I feel around the situation and that I wouldn't be sure if I could take someone saying I killed my child in person.
I see the posters saying license to kill and death and so on and that's enough to make me want to hide my situation, I have been afraid of this referendum coming up and I am terrified of the result, I don't know how I can continue if no wins, it is my country rejecting me. It is my country saying I am a criminal, a murderer, a babykiller. My own country gives me no sympathy.
I appreciate your words, I really do but
I think you voting no contradicts them.

Mrsmum

January wrote: »

I've created 4 human beings. I don't want to create any more. I don't want to stop having sex with my husband for the next 14 (at least) years. Give me your solution to my problem?

(Don't say use contraception, we already practice safe sex).

On the balance scale there is your struggles against the life of a child. To me you are an adult. Any amount of life difficulties may come your way without being pregnant at all that you have to deal with. Pregnant women aren't the only people with problems. This would be another one of life's surprises/shocks. And feelings can change, it's not untruthful to say many unwanted pregnancies become adored children. My sister has one of those at 19. Did she want her pregnancy or imagined child - hell no. Is he loved now - hell you bet he is. I trust you and your husband to cope but the baby I can't agree it's ok to destroy. And I am not asking of you anything I wouldn't do myself. I don't want another baby either. I am actively trying to prevent it but if it happens I will cope too. Abortion is too serious an action just because it's not currently convenient.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod: Rereg troll banned and posts deleted (inc quotes)

robarmstrong

Where on EARTH have I heard that before?!

fritzelly

Some people are so indoctrinated you cannot change their minds no matter how much you try

Then there are the others who don't think of themselves and ponder how a decision affects thousands of other people

But at least the anti choice "new" members are all singing from the same hymn sheet containing the same few question deflecting answers