The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Sofiztikated

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Wow!!!


Just.....wow!!!


The anti choice side have hit a new low that I thought they could never reach!

Stall on there, Timber, have a look, I'm vehemently pro choice.

A woman should have the choice to deal with that situation however she feels.

Be it abort the pregnancy, carry to term and give it up for adoption, or carry to term and raise the child herself.

All her choice. Going hard on that point occasionally sounds like advocating for mandatory abortions.

erica74

Abstinence, seriously?! Are we back to that nonsense?! People have (consensual) sex because it feels good and it's enjoyable and it's an intimate loving experience.
Sometimes contraception fails. If a woman finds herself pregnant because she had some lovely sex and she doesn't want to proceed with the pregnancy, she should have every option available to her here in Ireland.

January

Mrsmum wrote: »

On the balance scale there is your struggles against the life of a child. To me you are an adult. Any amount of life difficulties may come your way without being pregnant at all that you have to deal with. Pregnant women aren't the only people with problems. This would be another one of life's surprises/shocks. And feelings can change, it's not untruthful to say many unwanted pregnancies become adored children. My sister has one of those at 19. Did she want her pregnancy or imagined child - hell no. Is he loved now - hell you bet he is. I trust you and your husband to cope but the baby I can't agree it's ok to destroy. And I am not asking of you anything I wouldn't do myself. I don't want another baby either. I am actively trying to prevent it but if it happens I will cope too. Abortion is too serious an action just because it's not currently convenient.

I've had unwanted pregnancy that I've continued with. I won't continue with it anymore. We can't afford to either financially or emotionally. I'll have the abortion whether it's legal or not or whether I have to travel or not. It won't stop me. I should be able to do it legally though and without undue financial strain on me.

joe40

Mrsmum wrote: »

January wrote: »

I've created 4 human beings. I don't want to create any more. I don't want to stop having sex with my husband for the next 14 (at least) years. Give me your solution to my problem?

(Don't say use contraception, we already practice safe sex).

On the balance scale there is your struggles against the life of a child. To me you are an adult. Any amount of life difficulties may come your way without being pregnant at all that you have to deal with. Pregnant women aren't the only people with problems. This would be another one of life's surprises/shocks. And feelings can change, it's not untruthful to say many unwanted pregnancies become adored children. My sister has one of those at 19. Did she want her pregnancy or imagined child - hell no. Is he loved now - hell you bet he is. I trust you and your husband to cope but the baby I can't agree it's ok to destroy. And I am not asking of you anything I wouldn't do myself. I don't want another baby either. I am actively trying to prevent it but if it happens I will cope too.

I would probably have shared that view a few years ago, obviously as a man I won't have to make the decision for myself. However the fact is Irish women are having abortions everyday.
If this referendum was to repeal the 13 th amendment ie take away the right to travel how would you vote.
It just seems to me if you are happy to accept women travelling in such horrendous circumstances why not allow it to be done safely in ireland.
This need not detract from your own views and decisions.
If you can say you that that women should not be allowed to travel that is different and the 1992 amendment should be repealed that is a different argument, but im going to guess you don't hold that opinion. I could be wrong

robarmstrong

Couldn't resist.

#IONAmusPrime

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

On the balance scale there is your struggles against the life of a child. To me you are an adult. Any amount of life difficulties may come your way without being pregnant at all that you have to deal with. Pregnant women aren't the only people with problems. This would be another one of life's surprises/shocks. And feelings can change, it's not untruthful to say many unwanted pregnancies become adored children. My sister has one of those at 19. Did she want her pregnancy or imagined child - hell no. Is he loved now - hell you bet he is. I trust you and your husband to cope but the baby I can't agree it's ok to destroy. And I am not asking of you anything I wouldn't do myself. I don't want another baby either. I am actively trying to prevent it but if it happens I will cope too. Abortion is too serious an action just because it's not currently convenient.

What would you do if you were in a situation like savita? I will assume that your living children, & you living to take care of them, will always be more important right?

PhoenixParker

Maybe some food for thought for anyone reading in the wings thinking the "they should have just used contraception", irresponsible women, can't vote yes for them, has a bit of a ring of being right to it.

The census shows there are 284,000 women aged 15-24 and 719,000 women aged 25-44.

Just suppose the whole group, 40% of them are having sex and they're being very very careful with contraception, they're achieving 99.5% effectiveness.

That's 2000 crisis pregnancies a year.

Mrsmum

joe40 wrote: »

I would probably have shared that view a few years ago, obviously as a man I won't have to make the decision for myself. However the fact is Irish women are having abortions everyday.
If this referendum was to repeal the 13 th amendment ie take away the right to travel how would you vote.
It just seems to me if you are happy to accept women travelling in such horrendous circumstances why not allow it to be done safely in ireland.
This need not detract from your own views and decisions.
If you can say you that that women should not be allowed to travel that is different and the 1992 amendment should be repealed that is a different argument, but im going to guess you don't hold that opinion. I could be wrong

You're not wrong at all. I'm every which way conflicted about this and you could catch me out in many other areas to do with it also but the upcoming referendum is about removing the protection of this state for the unborn, rights which they currently have here and I will be voting no to that.

Vyse

PhoenixParker wrote: »

That's 2000 crisis pregnancies a year.

Not every unplanned pregnancy is a crisis pregnancy.

Mrsmum

bubblypop wrote: »

What would you do if you were in a situation like savita? I will assume that your living children, & you living to take care of them, will always be more important right?

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

PhoenixParker

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

That can't happen unless the 8th is repealed.

gandalf

The Frenchman wrote: »

The positive is it will keep abortion out of my country. I am anti abortion so therefore I will vote no.

No it won't and hasn't. All you are doing is driving it overseas and underground here without the benefit of proper medical attention and supervision. But hey as long as you are content in forcing your beliefs on others. Btw at 12 weeks it's not a child yet, just the potential of one.

Beasty

I've just deleted a number of posts by our regular re-reg troll together with various responses. Apologies if you went to much trouble responding to him, but his comments really do not deserve the oxygen of remaining up here

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

And at the moment, the 8th amendment means a woman has to be dying before they can treat her.
Do you really want to be in a situation were you are actually dying before you receive treatment?
I definitely don't, & I don't even have any children. I can only imagine if I had kids I would be frantic

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

the upcoming referendum is about removing the protection of this state for the unborn, rights which they currently have here and I will be voting no to that.

How do you feel about the 13 & 14 th amendments?
Do you feel we should repeal them?

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

There's enough evidence out there that doctors are not able to correctly treat their patients because of the 8th.

In fact the recent medical cases causing are actually why we're getting the chance to vote on the issue. The fact that everyday women travel to the U.K. to obtain an abortion is just the normal way Ireland deals with its problems, ignore and export.

NuMarvel

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

I presume you mean "as far as practicable", and frankly no they don't. They need to be able to do their jobs and look after their patients without worrying about the legal definition of a broad and vague term in a poorly drafted constitutional provision.

It wasnt me123

Lads can I make a suggestion. Can we just ignore anyone who is registered today or recently and anyone who says "I'm on the fence but need convincing" BS. Ye all go to such lengths to explain exactly about the amendment, the reasons people want choice etc and they just ignore it all and spew vitriol ignoring all the painful and heart wrenching stories that the 8th amendment has impacted on.

Just a suggestion, I read most of the posts and they drive me insane, which is their whole point - to annoy and antagonise.

I'm hoping if we don't interact with them at all, they will go away and annoy someone else.

Mrsmum

PhoenixParker wrote: »

That can't happen unless the 8th is repealed.

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

swampgas

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

They're being aborted anyway, but in England. Because Irish women need abortions, and they will get them any way they can. And our constitution guarantees that we won't try to stop anybody travelling for an abortion.

Keeping the 8th won't stop abortions happening but repealing it will make medical treatment of pregnant women safer, and it will give more power to consent or refuse medical treatment too.

What do you want your vote to do?

.

PhoenixParker

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

Healthy babies are aborted now, both here via pills and in the UK via our constitutionally guaranteed right to travel.

The 8th does not prevent abortion, it doesn't even prevent abortion in Ireland.
What it prevents is safe healthcare non-traumatic healthcare for women.

There's been 35 years to make the 8th workable, it's not workable.
Trust the people who run our maternity services when they tell you that?

NuMarvel

Mrsmum wrote: »

You're not wrong at all. I'm every which way conflicted about this and you could catch me out in many other areas to do with it also but the upcoming referendum is about removing the protection of this state for the unborn, rights which they currently have here and I will be voting no to that.

The unborn will still have protections. Those protections will be set out in legislation, which is a far more appropriate place that can account for the nuances and complexities of the matter and where the rights of the woman can be properly provided for as well.

There is absolutely no valid reason for saying this should to be in the constitution. To borrow from someone else's post, it's madness to think we can properly address a complex matter in something the length of a tweet.

Sofiztikated

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

I'd love to have a miracle pregnancy with my wife.

But my desire for a child shouldn't cloud my judgement..

gandalf

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

They already are getting aborted. A no vote is not going to stop women seeking an abortion either illegally using drugs here or being forced to travel to another jurisdiction. By allowing what is proposed by the government if we repeal the eight we can deal with this issue at home and hopefully allow women the space to explore all options without stigma and labels.

I find abortion abhorrent and in an ideal world it wouldn't exist. However we don't live in an ideal world and the only person who should be allowed to decide on whether they continue with a pregnancy is the women who is pregnant, no one else!

Edward M

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

Therein lies the problem with the eighth, it gives the baby has an equal right to life, thereby it is just as important as the mother.
Babies have survived after their mothers have died during pregnancy, but imagine a scenario where a mother could be saved but it might mean harm or death to the baby, then that mother would most likely be let die and the baby saved under the eighth amendment.
Its just a gross amendment whether you agree with abortion or not.
I'm sure most people who don't want abortion don't want mothers health and lives to be put at risk either, so if properly explained it should be easy to make them see the sense of voting yes.
This vote isn't about abortion at all really, its about the health and lives of pregnant women, the battle for or against abortion should take place after the referendum, that's when the legislating will be done.
The no campaign is perpetrating lies about abortion to try to keep this gross amendment in place.
Nothing is agreed for after as yet, only suggestions, take your battles for and against abortion to our legislators, but let's make it safe for women who are pregnant and allow the medical care they need during pregnancy above all else, no woman should have to die or have her health compromised by legal default to allow a baby be born!
A yes vote is the only option for people who care for mothers as much as babies!

Mrsmum

Ok we can just go around and around. You know my views at this stage. I think it's wrong to abort healthy babies and so I'm not going to vote for it. I almost envy people in a way who are ok with it. If enough of people think that way then the 8th will be gone and so be it.

Goodnight and thank you for keeping it respectful.

Hammer Archer

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ok we can just go around and around. You know my views at this stage. I think it's wrong to abort healthy babies and so I'm not going to vote for it. I almost envy people in a way who are ok with it. If enough of people think that way then the 8th will be gone and so be it.

Goodnight and thank you for keeping it respectful.

You have come out with some very contradictory views so I'm confused about your position. On one hand you say that you will vote against repealing the 8th because you disagree with aborting babies yet on the other hand you've said doctors should treat women as the primary patient in dangerous pregnancies which, as has been pointed out to you, cannot happen unless the 8th is repealed.

So it seems to me like you have come down on the side of preferring to not have pregnancies aborted and any women who die because of this (and this could include you) are collateral damage.

amdublin

Why do the No side think irish women are mad for having abortions, or will be mad for having them if they are available on Irish soil.

When you think of it that's simply not our style.

I won't call it crisis pregnancies. But how how many unplanned pregnancies do you know? How many of your friends have unplanned pregnancies?

Many many of my friends babies were unplanned. Different scenarios - I've a single mum friend, I've a very young mum when she had her baby friend, and ive two friends whose third babies were unplanned.
I also know tons of friends of friends who have unplanned babies.

Just one of my friends (very briefly) considered an abortion at the time. And it wasn't the young mum or the single mum.

The default for most Irish people is Not Terminate. It's have the baby.

Why do people think this will change??


For feks sake just trust women willya!!!

nice_guy80

Incapable of debating the actual issues?

leave the thread...

Experience_day

amdublin wrote: »

Why do the No side think irish women are mad for having abortions, or will be mad for having them if they are available on Irish soil.

When you think of it that's simply not our style.

I won't call it crisis pregnancies. But how how many unplanned pregnancies do you know? How many of your friends have unplanned pregnancies?

Many many of my friends babies were unplanned. Different scenarios - I've a single mum friend, I've a very young mum when she had her baby friend, and ive two friends whose third babies were unplanned.
I also know tons of friends of friends who have unplanned babies.

Just one of my friends (very briefly) considered an abortion at the time. And it wasn't the young mum or the single mum.

The default for most Irish people is Not Terminate. It's have the baby.

Why do people think this will change??


For feks sake just trust women willya!!!

Some people probably equate it to having a gun. Makes suicide a whole lot easier if you can wander upstairs, and kiss a barrel.

I know someone who had an unplanned pregnancy when I lived abroad. There was a fair amount of pressure for various social reasons (mainly cultural..) and they made the choice to abort.

Right or wrong is irrelevant, but I don't think its a stretch to say availability will not change the decision making process..