The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

thee glitz

baylah17 wrote: »

Edited your post so that it more accurately reflects the truth. my opinion

Edited your post so that it more accurately reflects the truth.

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

Again I never said that did I?

I said the moral position of the people will be part of the inputs used to decide the referendum and the law.
why do you find that so difficult to understand?

You did. baylah17 asked "who do you think you are to decide other peoples morality for them" and you replied "that is what the referendume(sic) is for".
It really isnt that hard to follow.

ForestFire wrote: »

baylah17 wrote: »

The arrogance of you to decide what is "morally" right or wrong for anyone else!
Who do you think you are to decide other peoples morality for them?

I never said it was for me to decide did I?

That is what the referendume is for, and everyone will decide.

baylah17

ForestFire wrote: »

So if the man does not or cannot suffer then it's okay for the woman to do what she want, even if it is morally wrong?

Above post shows poster deciding for everyone what is morally right and wrong.
Because he knows better than I do or you do what our morals must be!

kylith

ForestFire wrote: »

I never said it was for me to decide did I?

That is what the referendume is for, and everyone will decide.

While I accept that people will use their own moral compass to decide which way to vote I think it behooves one to take into account if it is right to force your morality on other people.

IF, for example, there was a Muslim majority In the country and they voted to make alcohol illegal do you think that them imposing their morality on you would be a good thing?

ForestFire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You did. baylah17 asked "who do you think you are to decide other peoples morality for them" and you replied "that is what the referendume(sic) is for".
It really isnt that hard to follow.

I was making the point that it is not me that will decide but everyone who has a vote, and I clarified later that we will decide the law using are moral judgment and other inputs.

but you did not quote any of this follow-up ?

baylah17

ForestFire wrote: »

I was making the point that it is not me that will decide but everyone who has a vote, and I clarified later that we will decide the law using are moral judgment and other inputs.

but you did not quote any of this follow-up ?

No
You stated that a woman choosing a termination is doing something morally wrong!
You decided that your idea of morality is the only valid one.
I have already quoted your post, stop with the denial.

marsbar1

In the old thread people were asking me what old values of Ireland I was speaking of that I think will go if abortion is allowed on Irish soil against the catholic church. Ireland is a friendly place where people help you and talk to you, like in England 30 years ago. England has been invaded now by many other religions and people, crime is up morals are down, there is no community spirit anymore. Its a horrible place being changed beyond recognition by political correctness, and the loony left.
Ireland is a lovely place, I think attached to the old catholic values are all the nice things that gels the goodness of Ireland together. We have already had enough attacks on Irish culture as it is. This is yet another thing that will send Ireland on the same path to ruin in society as England is on, and for that matter a lot of Europe including Sweden, France and Germany.
Yes some of you talk about the abuse of the church in the past like is is some justification to allow abortion. That ought to stop and be investigated and never happen again.

Madscientist30

ForestFire can you clarify what you mean by "abortion just because"? "Just because" implies there is no clear purpose behind doing it and it is almost done on a whim? Is that what you believe the reason is for most Irish women having abortions? Or to put it another way, would you outline a few case studies or examples of the types of thought processes you imagine Irish women are having to end their pregnancies "just because"?

baylah17

marsbar1 wrote: »

In the old thread people were asking me what old values of Ireland I was speaking of that I think will go if abortion is allowed on Irish soil against the catholic church. Ireland is a friendly place where people help you and talk to you, like in England 30 years ago. England has been invaded now by many other religions and people, crime is up morals are down, there is no community spirit anymore. Its a horrible place being changed beyond recognition by political correctness, and the loony left.
Ireland is a lovely place, I think attached to the old catholic values are all the nice things that gels the goodness of Ireland together. We have already had enough attacks on Irish culture as it is. This is yet another thing that will send Ireland on the same path to ruin in society as England is on, and for that matter a lot of Europe including Sweden, France and Germany.
Yes some of you talk about the abuse of the church in the past like is is some justification to allow abortion. That ought to stop and be investigated and never happen again.

Old Catholic values!
Child abuse, cruelty,coercive confinment of girls and women who did not live up to the sick moral code ruthlessly enforced by the Catholic Church, where women were taught to accept marital rape, abuse , and discrimation as their lot.
You can shove your Catholic values into a cesspit in Tuam!

Nettle Soup

marsbar1 wrote: »

In the old thread people were asking me what old values of Ireland I was speaking of that I think will go if abortion is allowed on Irish soil against the catholic church. Ireland is a friendly place where people help you and talk to you, like in England 30 years ago. England has been invaded now by many other religions and people, crime is up morals are down, there is no community spirit anymore. Its a horrible place being changed beyond recognition by political correctness, and the loony left.
Ireland is a lovely place, I think attached to the old catholic values are all the nice things that gels the goodness of Ireland together. We have already had enough attacks on Irish culture as it is. This is yet another thing that will send Ireland on the same path to ruin in society as England is on, and for that matter a lot of Europe including Sweden, France and Germany.
Yes some of you talk about the abuse of the church in the past like is is some justification to allow abortion. That ought to stop and be investigated and never happen again.

All over the shop. Your point is that only Catholics are helpful and nice?

ForestFire

baylah17 wrote: »

Above post shows poster deciding for everyone what is morally right and wrong.
Because he knows better than I do or you do what our morals must be!

Again you highlighted the wrong part just to put me down


"even if it is morally wrong?"

And I followed up on this and said that is what we as a people need to decide, Not Me alone

Is it morally wrong or not?

This is why there is not reasoned debate on here any more as I pointed out.

Another poster directly called me a Pro-Birther and against women which I am not and this is allowed?

This was my exact point of my first post in here, the pro life side attack and put down anyone who questions them, by nit picking, pre-labeling without foundation.

And don't give me you are challenging the post, you are not, its nit picking selective posting and labeling right from the start without even trying to discuss or clarify any points

baylah17

ForestFire wrote: »

Again you highlighted the wrong part just to put me down


"even if it is morally wrong?"

And I followed up on this and said that is what we as a people need to decide, Not Me alone

Is it morally wrong or not?

This is why there is not reasoned debate on here any more as I pointed out.

Another poster directly called me a Pro-Birther and against women which I am not and this is allowed?

This was my exact point of my first post in here, the pro life side attack and put down anyone who questions them, by nit picking, pre-labeling without foundation.

And don't give me you are challenging the post, you are not, its nit picking selective posting and labeling right from the start without even trying to discuss or clarify any points

No
All I did is quote what you said.
Your words

kylith

marsbar1 wrote: »

Ireland is a lovely place,

I don’t know what Ireland you’re living in, but it isn’t the same one as me. Do they sell time-shares in Darby O’Gill land?

marsbar1 wrote: »

I think attached to the old catholic values are all the nice things that gels the goodness of Ireland together.

like conformity, distrust of any one/thing different, two-faced ness, blind obedience, and shame?

marsbar1 wrote: »

We have already had enough attacks on Irish culture as it is. This is yet another thing that will send Ireland on the same path to ruin in society as England is on, and for that matter a lot of Europe including Sweden, France and Germany.

That would be ‘officially happiest place to live’ Sweden?

marsbar1 wrote: »

Yes some of you talk about the abuse of the church in the past like is is some justification to allow abortion. That ought to stop and be investigated and never happen again.

Because we are sick of some old bastards who have no idea claiming to have a direct line to the only moral authority while raping, torturing, enslaving, murdering, and selling the people of this country. We decide, individually, what our morality is.

Ave Sodalis

marsbar1 wrote: »

In the old thread people were asking me what old values of Ireland I was speaking of that I think will go if abortion is allowed on Irish soil against the catholic church. Ireland is a friendly place where people help you and talk to you, like in England 30 years ago. England has been invaded now by many other religions and people, crime is up morals are down, there is no community spirit anymore. Its a horrible place being changed beyond recognition by political correctness, and the loony left.
Ireland is a lovely place, I think attached to the old catholic values are all the nice things that gels the goodness of Ireland together. We have already had enough attacks on Irish culture as it is. This is yet another thing that will send Ireland on the same path to ruin in society as England is on, and for that matter a lot of Europe including Sweden, France and Germany.
Yes some of you talk about the abuse of the church in the past like is is some justification to allow abortion. That ought to stop and be investigated and never happen again.

You are joking....?

Subcomandante Marcos

So the second reading passes 110 for, 32 against.

Only 2 FG and 1 SF TD's voted against, the rest of the against votes coming from a sizable minority of FF TD's and a lot of Independants.

Amendments to be tabled from tomorrow, but this pretty much means the bill will pass by a similar majority.

21 FF TD's voted against, 19 for, 3 absentees.

Beta Ray Bill

Just throwing this out there.

We've had 3 knocks on the door in the last 2 weeks from Pro-Life campaigners and not one from Pro-Choice campaigners.

I genuinely thought there would be more from the pro-choice side.
I didn't say to them that I'm voting Pro-Choice, I just said Thank you very much when they handed me the pamphlet and gave me their one or two lines.

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

Again you highlighted the wrong part just to put me down


"even if it is morally wrong?"

And I followed up on this and said that is what we as a people need to decide, Not Me alone

Is it morally wrong or not?

This is why there is not reasoned debate on here any more as I pointed out.

Another poster directly called me a Pro-Birther and against women which I am not and this is allowed?

This was my exact point of my first post in here, the pro life side attack and put down anyone who questions them, by nit picking, pre-labeling without foundation.

And don't give me you are challenging the post, you are not, its nit picking selective posting and labeling right from the start without even trying to discuss or clarify any points

but that is not what we are deciding.

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

I was making the point that it is not me that will decide but everyone who has a vote, and I clarified later that we will decide the law using are moral judgment and other inputs.

but you did not quote any of this follow-up ?

so you clarified it by saying something completely different?

NuMarvel

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

So the second reading passes 110 for, 32 against.

Only 2 FG and 1 SF TD's voted against, the rest of the against votes coming from a sizable minority of FF TD's and a lot of Independants.

Amendments to be tabled from tomorrow, but this pretty much means the bill will pass by a similar majority.

21 FF TD's voted against, 19 for, 3 absentees.

I wonder what piece of Shakespeare Senator Mullen will quote when he's trying to filibuster the referendum bill in the Seanad. If memory serves, it was Romeo and Juliet when he tried that trick during the Civil Partnership Bill. Can we add a poll? :P

NuMarvel

grahambo wrote: »

Just throwing this out there.

We've had 3 knocks on the door in the last 2 weeks from Pro-Life campaigners and not one from Pro-Choice campaigners.

I genuinely thought there would be more from the pro-choice side.
I didn't say to them that I'm voting Pro-Choice, I just said Thank you very much when they handed me the pamphlet and gave me their one or two lines.

No campaigners have had much longer to get ready because they were always going to say no to whatever change was proposed.

It's only in the last few weeks that it's become reasonably certain what will be on the ballot paper, so most pro choice groups will probably start their canvassing now.

Zubeneschamali

grahambo wrote: »

I genuinely thought there would be more from the pro-choice side.

There isn't even a wording or a date yet.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

grahambo wrote: »

Just throwing this out there.

We've had 3 knocks on the door in the last 2 weeks from Pro-Life campaigners and not one from Pro-Choice campaigners.

I genuinely thought there would be more from the pro-choice side.
I didn't say to them that I'm voting Pro-Choice, I just said Thank you very much when they handed me the pamphlet and gave me their one or two lines.

I was actually at a (packed) meeting about this just last night! The pro-choice campaign is obviously vastly outfunded, in Cork anyway the story seems to be once the literature arrives and training is completed, door to door canvassing will scale up quickly.

Could depend where you're living as well, pro-life could be specifically targeting areas for whatever reason.

But I'd say you'll have pro-choice canvassers soon

ForestFire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you clarified it by saying something completely different?

Not really that's the point of a discussion, If it was worded wrong be me or taken up wrong by others, then you clarify what was meant.

After this clarification, you should not need to continually revert to the original post again and ignore the clarification?

ForestFire

Madscientist30 wrote: »

ForestFire can you clarify what you mean by "abortion just because"? "Just because" implies there is no clear purpose behind doing it and it is almost done on a whim? Is that what you believe the reason is for most Irish women having abortions? Or to put it another way, would you outline a few case studies or examples of the types of thought processes you imagine Irish women are having to end their pregnancies "just because"?

Firstly thank you for asking to clarify.

I have searched a few times and I cannot see where I said this, but maybe its just my eyes?

Can you show me where I said this and I will clarify for you.

ohnonotgmail

ForestFire wrote: »

Not really that's the point of a discussion, If it was worded wrong be me or taken up wrong by others, then you clarify what was meant.

After this clarification, you should not need to continually revert to the original post again and ignore the clarification?

nobody took you up wrong.

Edward M

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

I was actually at a (packed) meeting about this just last night! The pro-choice campaign is obviously vastly outfunded, in Cork anyway the story seems to be once the literature arrives and training is completed, door to door canvassing will scale up quickly.

Could depend where you're living as well, pro-life could be specifically targeting areas for whatever reason.

But I'd say you'll have pro-choice canvassers soon

I know you say the pro choice campaign is out funded, why do you think that is, is it because the pro life campaign has stronger financial backing here or what?
I've seen the posts claiming about foreign money coming in on the pro life side, but if pro choice is the most popular campaign, as seems to be going on what's posted here, how come its so out funded?
Genuine question!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Edward M wrote: »

I know you say the pro choice campaign is out funded, why do you think that is, is it because the pro life campaign has stronger financial backing here or what?
I've seen the posts claiming about foreign money coming in on the pro life side, but if pro choice is the most popular campaign, as seems to be going on what's posted here, how come its so out funded?
Genuine question!

American money basically. The Irish abortion situation is seen as a battle ground by fundamentalist religious pro-life organisations over there. You've only to look at the matches and the signage people have at them, the amounts of people in paid positions, the billboards etc to see the disparity.

david75

Edward M wrote: »

I know you say the pro choice campaign is out funded, why do you think that is, is it because the pro life campaign has stronger financial backing here or what?
I've seen the posts claiming about foreign money coming in on the pro life side, but if pro choice is the most popular campaign, as seems to be going on what's posted here, how come its so out funded?
Genuine question!

Weirder question for you. Right this very moment outside DIT Bolton street there’s an anti choice demonstration from *the Canadian* Pro life group ICBR.

Where is all the money coming from to ship these groups in? We know they’re doing this cos they can’t find people here and particularly young people, so it’s vastly expensive yet they’re doing it.

Also youth defence and their other branches are heavily fundraising and none registered with SIPO

david75

https://twitter.com/daithigor/status/976097289306624001?s=21

NuMarvel

Edward M wrote: »

I know you say the pro choice campaign is out funded, why do you think that is, is it because the pro life campaign has stronger financial backing here or what?
I've seen the posts claiming about foreign money coming in on the pro life side, but if pro choice is the most popular campaign, as seems to be going on what's posted here, how come its so out funded?
Genuine question!

Because the anti-repeal side has lots of friends abroad, especially America, who are happy to "do their part" to keep Ireland abortion free, regardless of what the law says. E.g. the guy I referred to earlier.

Look at it from a staunch anti-repealers point of view; Ireland has already changed significantly in the last 30 years - divorce, contraception, marriage equality, and so on. This is going to be the last major social issue that will be put to a public vote, so they are going to pull out ALL the stops to make sure this doesn't change. I wouldn't be at all surprised if for at least some of them that meant bending or breaking a few rules around funding.