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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #1142
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    What do the women who can't take any form of hormonal contraception for medical reasons do?

    Given that many of these women may also be taking medication that it's absolutely vital she does not get pregnant.

    For the craic, lets assume these are married women who's husbands would not be overly happy with the idea of abstinence for the rest of his wife's fertile decades...

    What do these women do?


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    #1143
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    The subtle misogyny in this kind of thinking. It’s the woman’s fault for not taking the pill. Or her pill failing. It’s the woman’s fault for having sex. It’s the woman’s fault for getting pregnant. It’s the woman’s fault for wanting an abortion.


    Newsflash. It takes two people to make a baby. A man and a woman. Only one of them to carry it (and all the blame it seems).

    This blame women thinking is so insidious but somehow keeps coming up


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    #1144
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    You're finding the pro-lifers more willing to debate? I'm hoping you mean off of boards because the pro-lifers we've had in here have either been trolls, re-regs or people so far into their own view they would come out with the most horrendous retorts.

    Thinly veiled? No. It is a simple sentence, it's simple because it's so easy to understand but so many refuse to understand it, which actually makes it difficult.

    We're the ones who have been fed simple regurgitated sentences that don't actually mean anything, if you think otherwise, you know how to unfollow and leave a thread.

    It is off line in fact. A couple of girls at work. I thought they would have been pro choice but I couldnt believe it that they were pro life. They gave some arguments about how aside from extreme stories, there is no positive in having abortion without limits. They told me that story about the 14 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant. She was brought to the UK and given an abortion without even explaining it to her. She woke up and didnt even know she had an abortion.

    I know and I am sure we all do know women (and men) who are careless. They would definitely use abortion on demand as an alternative to contraception. That kind stuff doesnt sit well with me.

    I want abortion to be there but I would like certain restrictions. I think everyone who wants one should have to get their GP to sign off on it but also have to attend counseling before and after the procedure. whether you definitely wanted to abortion or not, it is a huge trauma to go through and counselling is necessary to make sure you are making the right decision and that you are ok with the decisions afterwards. It could be as simple as two sessions before and after just to make sure your ok.

    Im still on the side of abortion (not that I need to tell anyone btw)


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    #1145
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    You weren't here looking for a debate. You came in under the guise of a pro-choicer, stated absolute sh!te, got called out on it and did not address those who called you out.

    You came here for an argument.

    That is what a debate is in every language


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    #1146
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Neyite wrote: »
    What do the women who can't take any form of hormonal contraception for medical reasons do?

    Given that many of these women may also be taking medication that it's absolutely vital she does not get pregnant.

    For the craic, lets assume these are married women who's husbands would not be overly happy with the idea of abstinence for the rest of his wife's fertile decades...

    What do these women do?

    There are many types of contraception


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    #1147
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1148
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mr.H wrote: »
    It is off line in fact. A couple of girls at work. I thought they would have been pro choice but I couldnt believe it that they were pro life. They gave some arguments about how aside from extreme stories, there is no positive in having abortion without limits. They told me that story about the 14 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant. She was brought to the UK and given an abortion without even explaining it to her. She woke up and didnt even know she had an abortion.

    I know and I am sure we all do know women (and men) who are careless. They would definitely use abortion on demand as an alternative to contraception. That kind stuff doesnt sit well with me.

    I want abortion to be there but I would like certain restrictions. I think everyone who wants one should have to get their GP to sign off on it but also have to attend counseling before and after the procedure. whether you definitely wanted to abortion or not, it is a huge trauma to go through and counselling is necessary to make sure you are making the right decision and that you are ok with the decisions afterwards. It could be as simple as two sessions before and after just to make sure your ok.

    Im still on the side of abortion (not that I need to tell anyone btw)


    yeah, right.


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    #1149
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    david75 wrote: »
    The subtle misogyny in this kind of thinking. It’s the woman’s fault for not taking the pill. Or her pill failing. It’s the woman’s fault for having sex. It’s the woman’s fault for getting pregnant. It’s the woman’s fault for wanting an abortion.


    Newsflash. It takes two people to make a baby. A man and a woman. Only one of them to carry it (and all the blame it seems).

    This blame women thinking is so insidious but somehow keeps coming up

    This is the rubbish I hate. I am in no way blaming women. But straight away this immature rubbish of "he must hate women".

    Such a "thank bait" comment to make


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    #1150
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Mr.H wrote: »
    There are many types of contraception

    Are there any that are 100% effective? If so, can you please provide this in the thread.


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    #1151
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1152
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Mr.H wrote: »
    It is off line in fact. A couple of girls at work. I thought they would have been pro choice but I couldnt believe it that they were pro life. They gave some arguments about how aside from extreme stories, there is no positive in having abortion without limits. They told me that story about the 14 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant. She was brought to the UK and given an abortion without even explaining it to her. She woke up and didnt even know she had an abortion.

    I know and I am sure we all do know women (and men) who are careless. They would definitely use abortion on demand as an alternative to contraception. That kind stuff doesnt sit well with me.

    I want abortion to be there but I would like certain restrictions. I think everyone who wants one should have to get their GP to sign off on it but also have to attend counseling before and after the procedure. whether you definitely wanted to abortion or not, it is a huge trauma to go through and counselling is necessary to make sure you are making the right decision and that you are ok with the decisions afterwards. It could be as simple as two sessions before and after just to make sure your ok.

    Im still on the side of abortion (not that I need to tell anyone btw)

    If they can't even be trusted to take a pill (because preventing pregnancy is that easy, according to you) why on earth would you trust them with the responsibility of caring for another human being?

    Weaponizing children into punishments for people who are 'careless' does not sit right with me. Its certainly not in the best interests of the child. Its used as an argument to teach "reckless' adults women a lesson.

    If a person thinks they cannot raise a child, that's good enough for me. They know what they can offer a child. There are enough neglected, unloved, unwanted children in this world without adding a few thousand more just to punish their mothers.


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    #1153
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Mr.H wrote: »

    I think everyone who wants one should have to get their GP to sign off on it but also have to attend counseling before and after the procedure. whether you definitely wanted to abortion or not, it is a huge trauma to go through and counselling is necessary to make sure you are making the right decision and that you are ok with the decisions afterwards. It could be as simple as two sessions before and after just to make sure your ok.


    I actually very much agree with it, although I'd keep the counselling sessions for after as beforehand might cause too much time to be lost. The service already has a long waiting list.

    I'm not sure what debate you want that hasn't already been done repeatedly?


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    #1154
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Mr.H wrote: »
    You dont know my views!


    First of all I would be only too happy to have kids. We will have kids (hopefully) when we are ready.

    Secondly If I was asked two years ago would I vote for abortion without limitation, I would have said yes without even thinking about it.

    The reason I ask questions is to validify my view point. I want abortion to be legalised but I also want actual debate about it.

    I know you all now probably think my posts where immature. But on the contrary, I am asking basic questions to get a more rounded view on the topic. Just because I ask a question doesnt mean I agree with those words 100%

    I am worried that because of the nature of the debate, we as a society are not actualy having one. You either want abortion legaised or you hate women. That seems to be the consensus. In fact I am finding it is the pro lifers who are more willing to debate than the pro choice.

    It is scary to think that the pro choice argument is so thinly veiled on simple sentences like "women can choose what to do with their own bodies". Which is the reason for me pointing to that statement. I am not looking to troll or to upset anyone or to pick on women. I am merely trying to get more from the side who I actually agree with (the pro choicers), than simple regurgitated sentences that dont actually mean anything.

    I hope you actually understand what I mean and I am not just coming across as rambling

    I do know your views, you know how I know your views? The way you speak about contraception use. That's how.


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    #1155
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Are there any that are 100% effective? If so, can you please provide this in the thread.

    Ok I will not even try to deny that ok.

    But look at the stats. Look at the UK. Can you honestly say that it is only the very very very few failed contraceptions that get aborted every year, or has it become another form of contraception?


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    #1156
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Also not everyone needs counselling before or after an abortion. I'm doing just fine without it. It should be available, but it should not be mandatory.


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    #1157
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Mr.H wrote: »
    It is off line in fact. A couple of girls at work. I thought they would have been pro choice but I couldnt believe it that they were pro life. They gave some arguments about how aside from extreme stories, there is no positive in having abortion without limits. They told me that story about the 14 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant. She was brought to the UK and given an abortion without even explaining it to her. She woke up and didnt even know she had an abortion.

    I know and I am sure we all do know women (and men) who are careless. They would definitely use abortion on demand as an alternative to contraception. That kind stuff doesnt sit well with me.

    I want abortion to be there but I would like certain restrictions. I think everyone who wants one should have to get their GP to sign off on it but also have to attend counseling before and after the procedure. whether you definitely wanted to abortion or not, it is a huge trauma to go through and counselling is necessary to make sure you are making the right decision and that you are ok with the decisions afterwards. It could be as simple as two sessions before and after just to make sure your ok.

    Im still on the side of abortion (not that I need to tell anyone btw)

    Any proof to this?

    Also, if you're "pro-choice" you'd understand it isn't "abortion on demand", it's unrestricted. Meaning there are no restrictions on whom can apply to undertake the procedure. Starting to get an odd whiff of a creature that lives under a bridge here.


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    #1158
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1159
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Mr.H wrote: »
    This is the rubbish I hate. I am in no way blaming women. But straight away this immature rubbish of "he must hate women".

    Such a "thank bait" comment to make


    You are literally saying they need to keep their legs closed and or use both types of contraception. You are blaming women.
    You have anything worth hearing at all to contribute? Other than this?

    Doubt it somehow.


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    #1160
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    I actually very much agree with it, although I'd keep the counselling sessions for after as beforehand might cause too much time to be lost. The service already has a long waiting list.

    I'm not sure what debate you want that hasn't already been done repeatedly?

    There should be little to no waiting period for abortions if they are okay-ed here IMO. I think it should be as simple as go to your GP and explain what you want. You should go see a Councillor either that day or the next. Then within a couple of days it should be sorted. It should be the same as the waiting time if you have a miscarriage. Very few days and done as quickly and professionally as possible.


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    #1161
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Never!

    You know the % stats for it failing are to account for it not being used correctly yes?

    If a man wears a condom and a woman uses the pill, as long as both are used correctly (pill taken on time every time), then you wont get pregnant!!

    Anyone I know who got pregnant who was on the pill its because they forgot the odd time or decided not to use a condom that one time.

    I mean ffs

    Mr.H wrote: »

    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Are there any that are 100% effective? If so, can you please provide this in the thread.

    Ok I will not even try to deny that ok.

    But look at the stats. Look at the UK. Can you honestly say that it is only the very very very few failed contraceptions that get aborted every year, or has it become another form of contraception?


    well it didnt take long for that mask to slip.


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    #1162
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    50%??

    How many abortions are in the Uk every year? Your telling me that 50% of them had contraception failure? Or is it more likely they didnt use it properly?
    david75 wrote: »
    You are literally saying they need to keep their legs closed and or use both types of contraception. You are blaming women.
    You have anything worth hearing at all to contribute? Other than this?

    Doubt it somehow.

    Your just making stuff up now. Show where I said anything like that.


  • Options
    #1163
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    well it didnt take long for that mask to slip.

    That all you have to add or should I sing for you or something?


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    #1164
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Mr.H wrote: »
    There should be little to no waiting period for abortions if they are okay-ed here IMO. I think it should be as simple as go to your GP and explain what you want. You should go see a Councillor either that day or the next. Then within a couple of days it should be sorted. It should be the same as the waiting time if you have a miscarriage. Very few days and done as quickly and professionally as possible.

    Why? I didn't have counselling either before or after my abortion. I was able to make my decision and stand by it. Why waste my time and money and tie up resources by forcing those who don't want or need it to go. Better to leave counselling for those who have a genuine need for it.


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    #1165
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Why? its a valid statement.

    Listen I am not talking about grey areas that are often used to validate the argument. I am talking simply a woman in or out of a relationship of course wants to have a healthy sex life. If the proper protection is used (properly) then you will not get pregnant.

    But if a woman does get pregnant and she wants to have an abortion for WHATEVER REASON she should be able to do so in Ireland.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    You dont know my views!


    First of all I would be only too happy to have kids. We will have kids (hopefully) when we are ready.

    Secondly If I was asked two years ago would I vote for abortion without limitation, I would have said yes without even thinking about it.

    The reason I ask questions is to validify my view point. I want abortion to be legalised but I also want actual debate about it.

    I know you all now probably think my posts where immature. But on the contrary, I am asking basic questions to get a more rounded view on the topic. Just because I ask a question doesnt mean I agree with those words 100%

    I am worried that because of the nature of the debate, we as a society are not actualy having one. You either want abortion legaised or you hate women. That seems to be the consensus. In fact I am finding it is the pro lifers who are more willing to debate than the pro choice.

    It is scary to think that the pro choice argument is so thinly veiled on simple sentences like "women can choose what to do with their own bodies". Which is the reason for me pointing to that statement. I am not looking to troll or to upset anyone or to pick on women. I am merely trying to get more from the side who I actually agree with (the pro choicers), than simple regurgitated sentences that dont actually mean anything.

    I hope you actually understand what I mean and I am not just coming across as rambling

    This is the same old nonsense repeated over and over again. A "new" poster joins the thread asks the same questions that have already been asked over and over and over again, other posters tell the "new" poster these questions have already been answered and debated many times. The "new" poster throws a strop and says all they want is real debate and makes a few digs about the carry on of the prochoice posters. And repeat.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    It is off line in fact. A couple of girls at work. I thought they would have been pro choice but I couldnt believe it that they were pro life. They gave some arguments about how aside from extreme stories, there is no positive in having abortion without limits. They told me that story about the 14 year old girl who was raped and got pregnant. She was brought to the UK and given an abortion without even explaining it to her. She woke up and didnt even know she had an abortion.

    I know and I am sure we all do know women (and men) who are careless. They would definitely use abortion on demand as an alternative to contraception. That kind stuff doesnt sit well with me.

    I want abortion to be there but I would like certain restrictions. I think everyone who wants one should have to get their GP to sign off on it but also have to attend counseling before and after the procedure. whether you definitely wanted to abortion or not, it is a huge trauma to go through and counselling is necessary to make sure you are making the right decision and that you are ok with the decisions afterwards. It could be as simple as two sessions before and after just to make sure your ok.

    Im still on the side of abortion (not that I need to tell anyone btw)

    The actual facts of that young girl's situation have been discussed at length.

    What do you think "abortion on demand" means?
    You go on to state abortion is "a huge trauma" yet seem to be implying we'll all be running out to have abortions willy nilly without a care in the world (because they're going to be free? and available at the local abortion shop?).


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    #1166
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,458 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mr.H wrote: »
    That all you have to add or should I sing for you or something?

    If your singing is as bad as your attempt to pretend to be pro-choice i'll pass.


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    #1167
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Mr.H wrote: »
    That all you have to add or should I sing for you or something?

    "Half of all abortions are provided to women whose contraception has failed, a new report suggests, amid fears many women falsely believe all birth control is foolproof.

    The British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), one of the country’s largest abortion charities, said 51 per cent of the 60,592 women it treated in 2016 were using at least one form of contraception when they became pregnant."

    Have you any evidence to suggest that these women were not using it correctly?

    I have evidence there that it failed.


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    #1168
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    erica74 wrote: »
    But if a woman does get pregnant and she wants to have an abortion for WHATEVER REASON she should be able to do so in Ireland.

    I do agree with abortion. I do disagree with abortion as an alternative to contraception.

    erica74 wrote: »
    This is the same old nonsense repeated over and over again. A "new" poster joins the thread asks the same questions that have already been asked over and over and over again, other posters tell the "new" poster these questions have already been answered and debated many times. The "new" poster throws a strop and says all they want is real debate and makes a few digs about the carry on of the prochoice posters. And repeat.

    Maybe if new posters where greeted or chatted to instead of posters making stuff up about what they said, lying about them and pushing them away. Then maybe the new poster wouldnt throw a strop?

    I mean I have asked a question on people thoughts and instead of being engaged with properly, I get accused of saying its womens fault they get pregnant and that they should keep their legs closed?

    Show one of these digs that I threw?

    erica74 wrote: »
    The actual facts of that young girl's situation have been discussed at length.

    What do you think "abortion on demand" means?
    You go on to state abortion is "a huge trauma" yet seem to be implying we'll all be running out to have abortions willy nilly without a care in the world (because they're going to be free? and available at the local abortion shop?).

    Yet the UK do have abortions willy nilly.

    Yes trauma can lead to a repeat customer


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    #1169
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    "Half of all abortions are provided to women whose contraception has failed, a new report suggests, amid fears many women falsely believe all birth control is foolproof.

    The British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), one of the country’s largest abortion charities, said 51 per cent of the 60,592 women it treated in 2016 were using at least one form of contraception when they became pregnant."

    Have you any evidence to suggest that these women were not using it correctly?

    I have evidence there that it failed.

    No you have evidence that these women said they were using birth control.

    You are also showing that almost 30,000 women a year are having abortions and not using birth control, with that stat!


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    #1170
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Ok I will not even try to deny that ok.

    But look at the stats. Look at the UK. Can you honestly say that it is only the very very very few failed contraceptions that get aborted every year, or has it become another form of contraception?

    In that line, how many Irish women are skewing the UK stats every year?
    Mr.H wrote: »
    There should be little to no waiting period for abortions if they are okay-ed here IMO. I think it should be as simple as go to your GP and explain what you want. You should go see a Councillor either that day or the next. Then within a couple of days it should be sorted. It should be the same as the waiting time if you have a miscarriage. Very few days and done as quickly and professionally as possible.

    There's already a backlog on mental health services as it is. There's no time to sit around and wait on a counseling appointment beforehand, it's very rare you'd be seen in a day or two. As is, you will be lucky to be seen in a week or two.

    Specified counseling should be available after an abortion though. However, I didn't realise you were taking about making the women go. You cannot force anyone into getting counseling, even those that have been through a massive trauma. Unless you're wanting to put women into a mental hospital afterwards.


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    #1171
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Show one of these digs that I threw?
    Mr.H wrote: »


    It is scary to think that the pro choice argument is so thinly veiled on simple sentences like "women can choose what to do with their own bodies".

    Also if you could address my questions regarding abortion on demand along with providing proof that abortion will be used as an alternative to contraception we'd greatly appreciate that, thanks.


This discussion has been closed.
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