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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #1172
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Mr.H wrote: »
    No you have evidence that these women said they were using birth control.

    You are also showing that almost 30,000 women a year are having abortions and not using birth control, with that stat!

    I have evidence that these women were using birth control. The fact they fell pregnant due to birth control (considering that the article mentioned they also these women used two forms of contraception) kinda states that the contraception failed.

    Have you any evidence to suggest otherwise?


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    #1173
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    In that line, how many Irish women are skewing the UK stats every year?



    There's already a backlog on mental health services as it is. There's no time to sit around and wait on a counseling appointment beforehand, it's very rare you'd be seen in a day or two. As is, you will be lucky to be seen in a week or two.

    Specified counseling should be available after an abortion though. However, I didn't realise you were taking about making the women go. You cannot force anyone into getting counseling, even those that have been through a massive trauma. Unless you're wanting to put women into a mental hospital afterwards.

    I think attitudes towards mental health need to be changed in this country anyway. I would like to see kids given counseling throughout their young lives also. We need to stop making counseling a bad thing.


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    #1174
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Also if you could address my questions regarding abortion on demand along with providing proof that abortion will be used as an alternative to contraception we'd greatly appreciate that, thanks.

    You gave evidence that 30k people have an abortion and are not on birth control!!

    I also fail to see how what I said is a dig in any way. I said that it is a lazy argument to just say "women can do what they like with their bodies". Of course they can!! But its a lazy argument to try to win a debate without actually putting an idea forward


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    #1175
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    While women should be able to avail of independent
    Non judgemental counselling, no women should have to wait or have to explain why she does nor wish to continue with a pregnancy.
    I will accept that there will be those who disagree with any abortion for whatever reason but they'll never rhetoric and hyperbole will never change my mindset.


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    #1176
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I think attitudes towards mental health need to be changed in this country anyway. I would like to see kids given counseling throughout their young lives also. We need to stop making counseling a bad thing.

    It's not that counseling is a bad thing, there is already a backlog meaning there isn't enough counseling services available as is.


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    #1177
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Mr.H wrote: »
    You gave evidence that 30k people have an abortion and are not on birth control!!

    I also fail to see how what I said is a dig in any way. I said that it is a lazy argument to just say "women can do what they like with their bodies". Of course they can!! But its a lazy argument to try to win a debate without actually putting an idea forward

    Answer my question about abortion on demand. You've been asked several times now, by myself and I think at least one or two others.

    I know I gave evidence that 30k women have an abortion whilst not on birth control, that's not what the argument here is about, you started off under the assumption that a minute amount of women seek abortion due to the failure of contraception. I provided you with statistics (facts) to show you that half of abortions are performed due to failure of contraception. You then go on to claim (without fact or evidence, so basically your opinion) that they failed due to the women not knowing how to use them.

    You have dodged questions and not backed up statements you've made with fact, but instead passed off an opinion as if it IS fact.


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    #1178
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    While women should be able to avail of independent
    Non judgemental counselling, no women should have to wait or have to explain why she does nor wish to continue with a pregnancy.
    I will accept that there will be those who disagree with any abortion for whatever reason but they'll never rhetoric and hyperbole will never change my mindset.

    Not what I mean in any way. I am just saying conselling to make sure that everything is ok. For example some women who might be bullied by their partner into not using protection. If she has an abortion everything is done and it can happen again. If she must go to "non judgemental" counselling, then the person will see that she needs more than an abortion. I am not saying she should be forced to explain herself. Just that she should get a check up the same way a GP gives you a health check.

    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    It's not that counseling is a bad thing, there is already a backlog meaning there isn't enough counseling services available as is.

    Which is crazy in itself that we have so many qualified counselors not doing anything in this country!! A friend of mine is qualified a couple of years now. She is paid by the HSE to just be on call "just in case". She doesnt know what this "just in case" is by the way. She said there are so many like her that get to see a patient for about an hour every couple of weeks and thats it.

    We have the people, we just for some reason dont have the services


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    #1179
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I do agree with abortion. I do disagree with abortion as an alternative to contraception.




    Maybe if new posters where greeted or chatted to instead of posters making stuff up about what they said, lying about them and pushing them away. Then maybe the new poster wouldnt throw a strop?

    I mean I have asked a question on people thoughts and instead of being engaged with properly, I get accused of saying its womens fault they get pregnant and that they should keep their legs closed?

    Show one of these digs that I threw?




    Yet the UK do have abortions willy nilly.

    Yes trauma can lead to a repeat customer

    Provide evidence that abortion is being used anywhere as contraception.
    Provide evidence the UK do have abortions willy nilly.
    What does the last sentence mean?

    What questions have you asked that haven't been responded to?


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    #1180
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    Answer my question about abortion on demand. You've been asked several times now, by myself and I think at least one or two others.

    I know I gave evidence that 30k women have an abortion whilst not on birth control, that's not what the argument here is about, you started off under the assumption that a minute amount of women seek abortion due to the failure of contraception. I provided you with statistics (facts) to show you that half of abortions are performed due to failure of contraception. You then go on to claim (without fact or evidence, so basically your opinion) that they failed due to the women not knowing how to use them.

    You have dodged questions and not backed up statements you've made with fact, but instead passed off an opinion as if it IS fact.

    Im sorry its not that I have dodged your question, its just that I really dont understand what you are asking. Your question just seemed like a mesh of two or three questions.

    Your asking me for fact that it will be used (or is being used) like a club card scheme (horrible analogy but quickest way to put it to get on the same page)? Thats what your asking I think.

    I cant give stats on that as it would mean people admitting to such. But I do know two girls who have have 3 abortions and from Ireland. They dont really "like protection".

    You dont need to believe me as I dont have a link. All I can give you is opinion I am afraid.

    But you are right. I am talking opinion. Not fact (apart from any actual story I have said).




    By the way you are the one lying about what I am saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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    #1181
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    erica74 wrote: »
    Provide evidence that abortion is being used anywhere as contraception.
    Provide evidence the UK do have abortions willy nilly.
    What does the last sentence mean?

    What questions have you asked that haven't been responded to?

    I have just answered most of that. Hopefully!

    I cant give stats on things like that.

    My original post was more slagged off than answered.

    I mean ffs I am getting a lot of hostility. Not exactly open minded around here


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    #1182
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Im sorry its not that I have dodged your question, its just that I really dont understand what you are asking. Your question just seemed like a mesh of two or three questions.

    Your asking me for fact that it will be used (or is being used) like a club card scheme (horrible analogy but quickest way to put it to get on the same page)? Thats what your asking I think.

    I cant give stats on that as it would mean people admitting to such. But I do know two girls who have have 3 abortions and from Ireland. They dont really "like protection".

    You dont need to believe me as I dont have a link. All I can give you is opinion I am afraid.

    But you are right. I am talking opinion. Not fact (apart from any actual story I have said).

    So 2 girls in the whole of Ireland have admitted to you that they've had 3 abortions because "they don't really like protection" and that makes you think we're all going to be queuing up for abortions with our loyalty cards?


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    #1183
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    erica74 wrote: »
    So 2 girls in the whole of Ireland have admitted to you that they've had 3 abortions because "they don't really like protection" and that makes you think we're all going to be queuing up for abortions with our loyalty cards?

    2 girls that I know well

    I am sure we all know a few that would probably be the same.

    Not because they are women but because they are people


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    #1184
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I have just answered most of that. Hopefully!

    I cant give stats on things like that.

    My original post was more slagged off than answered.

    I mean ffs I am getting a lot of hostility. Not exactly open minded around here

    If you can't provide evidence you shouldn't really be making such outlandish claims.

    What makes you think people aren't open minded?


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    #1185
    zedhead
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭zedhead


    Mr.H wrote: »
    2 girls that I know well

    I am sure we all know a few that would probably be the same.

    Not because they are women but because they are people

    2 women out of how many women you know?

    You mentioned the 30k that have had abortions who were not using contraception - a proportion of these would be people having abortion for medical reasons & FFA's so actually were trying to get pregnant.

    But what difference does it make at the end of the day? The fetus has been terminated whether they used contraception or not? Either you are ok with a fetus being terminated or not - the reason doesn't change the reality of it.


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    #1186
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Which is crazy in itself that we have so many qualified counselors not doing anything in this country!! A friend of mine is qualified a couple of years now. She is paid by the HSE to just be on call "just in case". She doesnt know what this "just in case" is by the way. She said there are so many like her that get to see a patient for about an hour every couple of weeks and thats it.

    We have the people, we just for some reason dont have the services

    Which is a problem in itself. There is no point in adding to it by making women go to these services regardless of whether or not they need it, or of whether or not going would put them over the 12 week deadline.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    I have just answered most of that. Hopefully!

    I cant give stats on things like that.

    My original post was more slagged off than answered.

    I mean ffs I am getting a lot of hostility. Not exactly open minded around here

    Contraception, and it's use/misuse and role in abortion has been done countless times between this thread and the last. You cannot have 100% effective contraception. You cannot use contraception 100% perfectly your whole life. Many women cannot use hormonal contraception but not even getting your tubes tied (if women were allowed to do that) is 100% effective.


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    #1187
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Not what I mean in any way. I am just saying conselling to make sure that everything is ok. For example some women who might be bullied by their partner into not using protection. If she has an abortion everything is done and it can happen again. If she must go to "non judgemental" counselling, then the person will see that she needs more than an abortion. I am not saying she should be forced to explain herself. Just that she should get a check up the same way a GP gives you a health check.


    How are you in a position to judge whether or not such a woman might in general be in need of counselling? Have you some qualification or other in psychology that you can use to refer to medical literature that states that counselling in general is good in such cases, rather than just dreaming up an example off the top of your head.

    Once, you have done that, maybe you would explain why legislators are best placed to decide that a particular woman needs counselling? surely, that is a matter between the woman and her GP?


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    #1188
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Mr.H wrote: »
    2 girls that I know well

    I am sure we all know a few that would probably be the same.

    Not because they are women but because they are people

    Funny how it’s always pro-lifers who come out with the most extreme of personal anecdotes.

    It would have nothing to do with their inability to back up their incredulous arguments with facts and stats now would it?

    Naw.. course not. :rolleyes:


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    #1189
    erica74
    Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭erica74


    Mr.H wrote: »
    2 girls that I know well

    I am sure we all know a few that would probably be the same.

    Not because they are women but because they are people

    I don't know any woman who has had an abortion because she didn't really like protection, literally not a single woman neither online nor in real life.

    3 abortions between 2 women or 3 abortions each? All I can think of is how expensive that would be.


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    #1190
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    Mr.H wrote: »
    2 girls that I know well

    I am sure we all know a few that would probably be the same.

    Not because they are women but because they are people

    I mean I can hand on heart say that I don't know any, because nobody I know has the money and time and energy to be flying over to the UK for a termination at random when they happen to fall pregnant as a result of regular unprotected sex rather than just use protection, no matter how much they dislike it.


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    #1191
    zedhead
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭zedhead


    erica74 wrote: »
    I don't know any woman who has had an abortion because she didn't really like protection, literally not a single woman neither online nor in real life.

    I don't actually know any women who 'don't really like protection' full stop - never mind ones who have had multiple abortions because of it.


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    #1192
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I have just answered most of that. Hopefully!

    I cant give stats on things like that.

    My original post was more slagged off than answered.

    I mean ffs I am getting a lot of hostility. Not exactly open minded around here

    Maybe because you are coming across like a spoofer.


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    #1193
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    ‘If you think it’s wrong to force continued pregnancy on a victim of rape, or a victim of incest, or a woman carrying a baby who cannot survive, then the middle ground is made up of kind and compassionate people’ good piece by @Donal_OKeeffe

    https://t.co/9gbj0F4hfm?amp=1


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    #1194
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Mr.H wrote: »
    I have just answered most of that. Hopefully!

    I cant give stats on things like that.

    My original post was more slagged off than answered.

    I mean ffs I am getting a lot of hostility. Not exactly open minded around here

    You're getting slagged off because there have been a number of posters (over the last week, especially), both "new" and not so new, that come in with "I'm pro-choice" and immediately bang on about how it will be abused, ridiculous claims, utter bollixology about China and India and their attitudes to women (with abortion being the cause of it) and so on and so on.

    I couldn't tell you if I know anyone that has had one. And I genuinely don't care. Not that I don't care about them, or any trauma that goes with it. But their reasons for having one is not my (or your) business.

    And honestly answer, if you are ok with abortion, what does it matter to you IF someone doesn't like protection? How exactly does it affect you?


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    #1195
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Two women someone knows told him they don’t like using protection so therefore all women will be the same and have an open account at the local abortion clinic?

    Yeah that sounds realistic.


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    #1196
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod-Ok, this is getting beyond ridiculous. STOP using report post to try get others banned. Ye are all as bad as each other. If ye can't debate respectfully then leave the debate. If you have no answer to someones points then suck it up and move on.

    Finally, quit the petty bickering, since I started this thread I've read every post in it and it is starting to get annoying.


    I am locking this thread for one hour to give everyone time to cool down and take a break.


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    #1197
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod-Sorry bout the delay. Lost track of time.


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    #1198
    w.b. yokes
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭w.b. yokes


    Which is more ethically wrong? Having a female host a fetus she doesn’t want or stealing and ending a human life? For me the answer is clear


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    #1199
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    w.b. yokes wrote: »
    Which is more ethically wrong? Having a female host a fetus she doesn’t want or stealing and ending a human life? For me the answer is clear

    Would you care to share your answer?

    EDIT: no idea where you're getting stealing from, it's not like people are breaking in during the middle of the night to perform Green Beret-style abortions.


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    #1200
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Another new poster joking the thread, well I never.....:rolleyes:


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    #1201
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    @Edward. So it looks like save the 8th are having their ads paid for directly from the US and this loopholing Irish /SIPO. Regulations this is alarming given this weeks revelations about Cambridge analytica running trumps campaign and pushing brexit.

    https://twitter.com/dwyercraig/status/976370487663235073?s=21


This discussion has been closed.
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