The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Graces7

robarmstrong wrote: »

Ah here you're just taking the piss now, you're either very stupid or you're just looking for a reaction.

It's extremely relevant to the debate considering it's regarding abortion.

I'll ask again so.

Do you believe that a woman who has fallen pregnant due to rape should be forced to continue that pregnancy to keep in line with your beliefs, yes or no, it is a very, very simple answer.

Again, my response was and is for my personal situation only. And your language!

SusieBlue

Graces7 wrote: »

Your question is irrelevant to this debate. As I have said many times.

It’s actually not irrelevant.
Because you are voting no, solely due to your own personal beliefs, you are ensuring that any pregnant rape victim will be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her wishes if the Repeal effort fails.

So it actually is pertinent to this discussion.

Graces7

DubInMeath wrote: »

Its not just you that believes women should be forced to carry to term when raped as I said your just one of them and yours and similar posts, who swayed me.

Please stop attributing words that I did not say to me. And blaming others for your decisions. And the voting is confidential

robarmstrong

Graces7 wrote: »

Again, my response was and is for my personal situation only.

Right I'm going to repeat myself until this sinks through to that skull of yours.

I'm not asking for your personal situation, it's blatantly obvious that you'd keep the baby if you were in that circumstance.

I'm asking you if you believe that a woman who has fallen pregnant due to rape should be forced to continue that pregnancy to keep in line with your beliefs, yes or no, it is a very, very simple answer.

This means if it happens to someone who isn't you. Do you need me to explain more?

applehunter

Nobody here is on trial.

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

Not at all. I'm dealing with the reality of abortion as proposed.

This child will be aborted under risk to health in the proposal.

Medical grounds includes mental mental health grounds.

You must know that a premature birth at 22 weeks normally stands very little chance of survival, and is the exception rather than the rule. They would more than likely be severely disabled. Clearly the mother must come first should the medical mental or physical need arise.

Survival Rates (approx.)

Babies born at 23 weeks have a 29% chance of survival (50% of them have no disability at age 3).

Babies born at 24 weeks have a 46% chance of survival (60% of them have no disability at age 3).

Babies born at 25 weeks have a 69% chance of survival (70% of them have no disability at age 3).

Babies born at 26 weeks have a 78% chance of survival (80% of them have no disability at age 3).

Babies born at 27 weeks have a 90% chance of survival.

Babies born between 28-31 weeks gestation have at 90-95% chance of survival.

Babies born between 32-33 weeks have a 95% chance of survival.

Most babies born 34 weeks onwards have the same likelihood of survival as a full term infant.

http://www.inha.ie/definition-of-premature-birth/

applehunter

I suggest you take a look at the picture and message in my post again.

Oldtree

applehunter wrote: »

I suggest you take a look at the picture and message in my post again.

You did not post a message in you post.

Outlaw Pete

DubInMeath wrote: »

What I'm getting from this is that as a civilised society we should force women who have been raped, whose fetus have been shown to fatal fetal abnormalities to carry to term and we should deny them the right not to do so because you believe that they are just a smoke screen as most western women decide to have an abortion for some other reason which you don't mention.

Well that's a damn strange thing to get from my post considering I said:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

If a woman's life is in danger should a pregnancy continue, then of course it's understandable for us as a civilized society to then see abortion as being more than justifiable. Fatal fetal abnormalities, similarly......

No idea how you managed to infer what you did.

erica74

I posted this in part 1 but I want to post it in here too.
If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
If you want an abortion, have one.
That's how simple this should be. That's what a change in legislation would allow for - CHOICE, every woman's choice to be respected.
No woman forced to remain pregnant, no woman forced to have an abortion. Simple.
Every woman should have access to abortion in their home country so that there is continuity of care and every woman has the support they need throughout the process.

Ismisejack

Let me again tell my Abortion story, I was the result of an unplanned pregnancy. My mother had considered abortion but in the end chose against it as it wasn’t straight forward and involved considerable effort as if involved traveling to uk. .She had me as a result and as soon as she had she was shocked she ever even contemplated an abortion, knowing she’d have murdered a child like me and that really hit home with her. So basically, if the eighth amendment wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion so yes the eighth amendment saved my life, so I think it’s only stand up for it at this time.
My personal experience is similar right across the country!! The eighth has saved lives !

amdublin

Ismisejack wrote: »

Let me again tell my Abortion story, I was the result of an unplanned pregnancy. My mother had considered abortion but in the end chose against it as it wasn’t straight forward and involved considerable effort as if involved traveling to uk. .She had me as a result and as soon as she had she was shocked she ever even contemplated an abortion, knowing she’d have murdered a child like me and that really hit home with her. So basically, if the eighth amendment wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion so yes the eighth amendment saved my life, so I think it’s only stand up for it at this time.
My personal experience is similar right across the country!! The eighth has saved lives !

Correct me if I'm wrong but I am not sure why are are saying that you are telling the story "again". I have never seen your story before.

If this really is your story I am delighted that your mother chose not to have an abortion. Currently, like your mother, women in Ireland have this choice to travel for an abortion. I want this removed and the choice to have the abortion here in Ireland be put in place.

And you know what I actually believe it could reduce abortion rates for Irish women. It will mean the woman does not have all the extra stress and stuff to do like booking flights. She can focus on the one important decision whether it's the right thing for her to do.

Also by not traveling it can allow her more time to.mske her decision. If imagine that there are some women who are still unsure but because they booked the flights took the time off work and are actually in the UK go ahead with it right then because to go home and get back (If needed) is not an option.

Your mother made her decision which I respect now please can you respect other women's decision. Abortion is a personal private decision .

Madscientist30

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

iamtony wrote: »

I know it's a touchy subject for many but seriously just mind your own business. If you dont want an abortion, just don't get one.

That argument is, and always has been, nonsensical.

If you heard someone speaking out against child abuse, would you say to them:

"If you don't agree with child abuse, then just don't abuse a child!"

Course you wouldn't, cause it would be a ridiculous thing to say and it's just as ridiculous to say it to those who don't agree with abortion also, as their objective is the same: to prevent the cruel mistreatment of a vulnerable human being.

And how much speaking out and campaigning have you personally done against child abuse of born children? Where are the marches for that, if the pro-lifers are against child abuse in all its forms? Once the baby is born pro-lifers are nowhere to be found. It's actually kind of sick.

erica74

Ismisejack wrote: »

Let me again tell my Abortion story, I was the result of an unplanned pregnancy. My mother had considered abortion but in the end chose against it as it wasn’t straight forward and involved considerable effort as if involved traveling to uk. .She had me as a result and as soon as she had she was shocked she ever even contemplated an abortion, knowing she’d have murdered a child like me and that really hit home with her. So basically, if the eighth amendment wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion so yes the eighth amendment saved my life, so I think it’s only stand up for it at this time.
My personal experience is similar right across the country!! The eighth has saved lives !

Your mother made the right choice for HERSELF, every woman should have that same opportunity, with all options accessible to them here in Ireland.

Madscientist30

Oldtree wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

it is about the negative butterfly effect of the missing people in society due to abortion being normalised.

In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependence on initial conditions in which a small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state.

I know you are trying to sound all sciencey n stuff, but you you missed the bit in chaos theory that says 'can' not 'will'!

Linking an action of your choosing with an outcome of your choosing and saying the 2 are linked by the butterfly effect is tenuous at best. In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is about showing all things being interlinked, not just ones of your choosing.

Additionally to call it a 'negative butterfly effect' is disingenuous on your part, as adding 'negative' is superfluous, but suits your agenda to give your hypothesis a negative slant.

Not only this, but you also have to consider the "butterfly effect" of the counterfactual situation, thousands of unwanted children being born every year in Ireland. Chaos theory works on every scale including the individual brain and development, and so the "initial conditions" that each child is born into also are subject to the butterfly effect.

Graces7

Ismisejack wrote: »

Let me again tell my Abortion story, I was the result of an unplanned pregnancy. My mother had considered abortion but in the end chose against it as it wasn’t straight forward and involved considerable effort as if involved traveling to uk. .She had me as a result and as soon as she had she was shocked she ever even contemplated an abortion, knowing she’d have murdered a child like me and that really hit home with her. So basically, if the eighth amendment wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion so yes the eighth amendment saved my life, so I think it’s only stand up for it at this time.
My personal experience is similar right across the country!! The eighth has saved lives !

For this, thank you mightily. And you are right in all you say. I am sure others here will have the statistics on the people like you who owe their lives to the 8th amendment.

Madscientist30

Graces7 wrote: »

Oldtree wrote: »

More Mother Teresas, you think?

No; Mother Teresa let babies die too. As her order do to this day. As many aid workers know . Plenty online about that too.

So who is saving all these babies then, or who is going to? Just get them born and worry about that later is it?

PhoenixParker

Graces7 wrote: »

For this, thank you mightily. And you are right in all you say. I am sure others here will have the statistics on the people like you who owe their lives to the 8th amendment.

What about all the people who owe their lives to abortion? Do they not get consideration too?

Plenty of people here today who wouldn't be if their mom hadn't had an abortion at 18.

And as discussed, plenty of abortions gone ahead with due to the 8th. Once the flights are booked it's very difficult to change your mind. Much more difficult then if you can come back next week.

erica74

Graces7 wrote: »

For this, thank you mightily. And you are right in all you say. I am sure others here will have the statistics on the people like you who owe their lives to the 8th amendment.

He doesn't owe his life to the 8th amendment. His mother decided to continue with her pregnancy and would have done that regardless of whether the 8th existed or not. If the 8th didn't exist at that time, nobody was going to force her to have an abortion, she would still have been able to make the choice for herself.

I find this "the 8th saves lives" thing very bizarre. A woman who doesn't want an abortion isn't going to be forced to have an abortion if the 8th is repealed.
Do you not understand that?
The 8th doesn't "save lives", it prevents women who want an abortion from having it here in Ireland. Women who don't want an abortion won't have one anyway regardless of whether the law is changed.

Annasopra

Martina1991 wrote: »

European women (including Irish) are getting married and having children much later than the baby booming generation. Having children at a later stage means families are smaller, hence a lower birth rate.

What evidence do you have that “legalised abortion leads to more abortions”.

There simply isnt any evidence to be honest

Annasopra

finbar10 wrote: »

In the poll I opted for the NO vote. I think the current proposal just goes too far. I'd be prepared to allow the Oireachtas to legislate for abortion as long as their hands were tied to some degree in the constitution.

The recent government abortion policy paper copper-fastened (with its 21 principles) this decision. The proposal is for abortion without restriction before 12 weeks. Afterwards, it seems a mirror of UK provisions with just need for any two doctors to sign off for mental/physical health reasons: not serious health reasons or certainly not threats to the life of the mother or danger of suicide, just vague health reasons as per the vast majority of abortions in the UK. A cut off for viability (23 or 24 weeks) as in the UK isn't even mentioned (there was some mention of medical guidelines or best practice but no mention of legislative limits).

I'd think that the Oireachtas committee is a good gauge of how the D might vote on legislation. There are lots of TDs refusing to say or make a definite stand (making noises they might not vote for 12 weeks after the passage of a referendum; just all for show I'd say). I'd say those objections will melt away like the morning mist in the aftermath of a successful referendum. I'd say the votes of the Oireachtas committee is an indication of the true D state of play.

My initial expectation if the referendum passed is that legislation would morph to a liberal abortion regime within 5 or 10 years. However, it looks like we'll fairly immediately jump to such a regime if the amendment is passed.

All too far for me. We're being presented with an all or nothing proposal unfortunately. So NO for me. However, if Regina Doherty is to be believed today, a NO vote would only soon lead to another vote. That's not very respectful of voters. However, most likely any new proposal would be an amendment constraining the Oireachtas a bit more in the legislation it could pass. This is a proposal that would easily pass, and I'd be happy enough with.

So a NO from me for this referendum. The current proposal goes way too far for my liking. No thanks.

I used to be strongly pro life when I was raised in Catholic primary school and secondary school and regular church goer. I have come to realise over time that the 8th amendment is effectively barbaric in what it means pregnant people in Ireland regularly experience. Repealing is the 8th is about compassion for women.

The reason for the 12 weeks proposal makes perfect sense to me. There is simply no other way to prevent women who have been raped from being retraumatised. You could do it differently. Yes. You can but all other options are inhumane and barbaric in retraumtising rape and incest victims. The law for this in other jurisdictions simply does not work. The evidence for all of this is clear - it was presented to the Oireachtas committee.

In relation to health of the mother, again I find it simply unconscionable that we are forcing medics into a situation where they cannot intervene to save a womans life or health because they have to defend the life of the unborn foetus in her womb. This practice often means both lives are lost. I don't know how so called pro lifers can defend that.

uptherebels

Ismisejack wrote: »

Let me again tell my Abortion story, I was the result of an unplanned pregnancy. My mother had considered abortion but in the end chose against it as it wasn’t straight forward and involved considerable effort as if involved traveling to uk. .She had me as a result and as soon as she had she was shocked she ever even contemplated an abortion, knowing she’d have murdered a child like me and that really hit home with her. So basically, if the eighth amendment wasn’t in place my mother would have had an abortion so yes the eighth amendment saved my life, so I think it’s only stand up for it at this time.
My personal experience is similar right across the country!! The eighth has saved lives !

when did you tell it the first time? dont think its in any of your 26 posts.(at a quick glance)

But it is very similar to a post by Da Boss https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=105863283
another very vocal anti choicer who for some inexplicable reason hasn't been seen since just before you arrived

FutureGuy

erica74 wrote: »

He doesn't owe his life to the 8th amendment. His mother decided to continue with her pregnancy and would have done that regardless of whether the 8th existed or not. If the 8th didn't exist at that time, nobody was going to force her to have an abortion, she would still have been able to make the choice for herself.

I find this "the 8th saves lives" thing very bizarre. A woman who doesn't want an abortion isn't going to be forced to have an abortion if the 8th is repealed.
Do you not understand that?
The 8th doesn't "save lives", it prevents women who want an abortion from having it here in Ireland. Women who don't want an abortion won't have one anyway regardless of whether the law is changed.

The “8th saves lives” is based on the idea that women are clearly too dumb, too weak and too ignorant to make the decision for themselves. As if they’ll run off and have an abortion without even thinking about the decision.

It’s downright insulting.

rainbow kirby

applehunter wrote: »

Not at all. I'm dealing with the reality of abortion as proposed.

This child will be aborted under risk to health in the proposal.

Medical grounds includes mental health grounds.

Given that suicide is one of the biggest causes of maternal deaths in pregnancy you really shouldn't be so flippant about mental health.

It does demonstrate though exactly how little pro-lifers care about women.

MrPudding

I drank rather a lot yesterday, so I might not be operating on all cylinders, so I just want to check something. Is RobertKKK actually suggesting we should “fix” low birth rates by forcing women to continue with pregnancies they don’t want?

Maybe what we could do it get all the really fertile ones and lend them to the leaders of the nations so they can breed for them...?

MrP

erica74

MrPudding wrote: »

I drank rather a lot yesterday, so I might not be operating on all cylinders, so I just want to check something. Is RobertKKK actually suggesting we should “fix” low birth rates by forcing women to continue with pregnancies they don’t want?

Maybe what we could do it get all the really fertile ones and lend them to the leaders of the nations so they can breed for them...?

MrP

Like The Handmaid's Tale:pac:

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Well that's a damn strange thing to get from my post considering I said:



No idea how you managed to infer what you did.

Maybe if you re post your entire piece and explain what you mean by the items highlighted not being the reason western women have abortions?

Call me Al

MrPudding wrote: »

I drank rather a lot yesterday, so I might not be operating on all cylinders, so I just want to check something. Is RobertKKK actually suggesting we should “fix” low birth rates by forcing women to continue with pregnancies they don’t want?
...?

MrP

Oh indeed..
You just need to look at Ceaucescu's Romania to see how well that approach works.

Nettle Soup

Voting to repeal the 8th is the compassionate thing to do.

Ken.

Mod-Ok, this sh!t has gone on long enough and we are sick of the reports. As I said in the last thread we have really tried to let this debate run without interference no matter which side of it your on. But from now on name calling will result in thread bans or worse and I don't give a flying fück which side of the debate you are on.

I am locking this thread for one hour so everyone can read this. Ignorance of the rule will not be a defence.