The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Guy:Incognito

Neyite wrote: »

There's a lot of people who will vote yes but not mention it on social media- I'm one of those.

A couple in my family are staunchly pro-life. The kind of Iona pro-lifers that would maintain that unwavering view in even the cases of rape, FFA etc. There's actually no point in debating with someone who thinks that a woman dying in childbirth is basically a holy martyr and removal at any stage after conception of a foetus is murder.

I'd be the opposite tbh. I made sure to stick a couple of repeal articles on Facebook when someone was putting up a load of pictures of the pro life billboards.

freshpopcorn

DubInMeath wrote: »

The prolife side will keep their powder dry until closer to the actual date. If the really ramp up to early their is more chance of the mask slipping and potentially swaying undecided voters against them in my opinion.

I do think both sides needs to keep certain people in their box to get the result they want!

Edward M

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I do think both sides needs to keep certain people in their box to get the result they want!

There's a bad joke in there somewhere!
Its fair to say that raving extremists on either side will only serve to further entrench those against their views.
It won't be a quiet or reasoned debate overall I fear, the extremes will get the headlines and the shares to be laughed at by the opposing side too.

Mr.H

david75 wrote:

Nobody’s buying what you’re selling mr H. You may as well give up.

I haven't tried to sell anything. But ye keep trying to drive me from here which is putting me more on the defensive and not liking a certain section

david75

I have a warm glow when I remember a debate on the late late show on marriage equality where Colm o Gorman and Una Mullaly made Sh!t of Petra Conroy and Keith Mills. (keith millshahahahahahhaa) they totally dug themselves into a hole once they realised how utterly outclassed they were by O Gorman and Mullally.

Again these same people are standing up against Ireland and progress. Can only hope the complete lack of competence on the no side keeps giving us such inept and unfit mouthpieces to make their case.

freshpopcorn

david75 wrote: »

Colm o Gorman and Una Mullaly made Sh!t of Petra Conroy and Keith Mills.

I find them all very hard to stand to be honest.

freshpopcorn

Martina1991 wrote: »

I have an aunt in her 60s sharing pro life stuff. Today it was from a page called courage to love.

It's full of anecdotal stories of women who followed through with unplanned pregnancies, pictures of newborns and unfounded statistics of women becoming suicidal after an abortion.

It really annoys me when people blindly believe these pages without researching facts.

The person locally who's into it is or was the district nurse. So, she can talk about all the babies she's met over the years. She'd also be into sharing similar.

david75

That’s fair. But given the constant barrage they come under it would shape their stance and takes on everything. Understandably.

freshpopcorn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I do think both sides needs to keep certain people in their box to get the result they want!

Yeah some irritating people on the repeal side.
I'm mean more on the doorstep and on the street. The pro life side have a habit in my experience of getting a little ratty if you won't take one of their leaflets or put them in the bin in front of them.

bertieinexile

Looking over the last few pages this seems like a curiously one sided, highly energetic, thread.
It might be interesting to engage on some of the issues and try for a calmer, more rational, discussion.
It might be just as interesting to see if that's even possible here. I certainly hope it is

erica74's post seems like a good place to get started

erica74 wrote: »

Anyway...

Just found this
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/referendum-tracker
Interesting for anyone watching politicians or particular parties.

The Irish Times have 66 TDs down as backing abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.
That doesn't include 13 Sinn Fein TD's who they have down as undeclared. Does anyone doubt how they will vote?
That makes 79 - a Dail majority.
The IT has 23 other TDs down as undeclared.
You can add however many more of those to your simple majority.
So how is it possible, according to the last two polls, for 5% of the public (including Simon Coveney) to be in favour of repeal but against abortion on demand up to 12 weeks.
Or to phrase it differently, do posters on this thread believe they can count on that 5% to stay in the repeal camp? It seems like the softest vote ever recorded in an Irish opinion poll.
What do you make of the 20% telling pollsters they are undecided when every media outlet, every party and all respectable opinion is in favour of a Yes vote.
Related point: Paddy Power now have a No vote at 11/8

erica74 wrote: »

https://www.wtva.com/content/national/477569043.html?ref=043
Limiting access to abortion doesn't lower the amount of abortions but does make them unsafe.


https://www.wtva.com/content/national/477713323.html?ref=323
Women in Poland have to go to Germany.

The number of recorded abortions in Poland declined dramatically from around 16% in 1988 to about a quarter of a percent in 1993 (and has stayed around there) because of restrictive laws introduced after the end of communism. Laws that aren't very different from our own.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-poland.html

Not surprisingly there are some who claim that these laws in Poland have not saved lives. They claim the number of Polish women obtaining abortions has remained the same. The problem for people making these claims is that their estimates of the true numbers are all over the place.
Some claim the number is 5 times the official rate some claim it is 75 times greater. Obviously if there was any reliable methodology underlying these estimates they wouldn't be as wildly different as they are. They seem a lot more like wishful thinking.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37449903

Looking forward to your replies

freshpopcorn

How I started looking at the stuff on Facebook again was I saw a post shared about a local TD not supporting the referendum and how angry somebody was with him.
During the marriage referendum he was a county Councillor and he said he was voting no and in his campaign for the general election in 2016 it was clear he was a pro-life TD.I think it might have even being mentioned on the Vincent Brown debates and yet people were shocked/outraged with him!

Candamir

Interestingly today is ‘Czarny Piatek’ in Poland - a repeat of the Czarny poniedziałek covered in the second link above. There was also a Black Friday in Dublin protest at the GPO today. A lot of Polish women and men are thoroughly fed up of having to protest this. Again.
The very conservative PiS are unlikely to be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

Nettle Soup

I just hope people do their research and not listen to the spin from the likes of Iona and the Roman church. During the equality referendum there was all kinds of scaremongering especially relating to what would happen to children. It was all nonsense of course but it did push people to vote No. I know people who voted No and deeply regretted it when they saw the emotion across the gay community afterwards. They saw that the world kept spinning and even became a happier place.

bertieinexile

Candamir wrote: »

Interestingly today is ‘Czarny Piatek’ in Poland - a repeat of the Czarny poniedziałek covered in the second link above. There was also a Black Friday in Dublin protest at the GPO today. A lot of Polish women and men are thoroughly fed up of having to protest this. Again.
The very conservative PiS are unlikely to be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

I note what you are saying but I'm having a hard time drawing out a counter argument in it to what I said above.

Being fed up protesting something doesn't make you either right or popularly supported.

The "very conservative PiS" were at 44% in a recent poll and had a healthy 30% lead over their nearest rival. So I don't suppose they will be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

As far as having days dedicated to things goes, Wednesday was the 13th World Down Syndrome Day.

Annasopra

italodisco wrote: »

So why did the pro choice group call a hotel and make threats because the pro life group were having some praise jebus save the babies event? Would that not be considered trying to stop them have an opinion?

Why did pro lifers intimidate people outside a pro choice event I attended last night?

bertieinexile

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I just hope people do their research and not listen to the spin from the likes of Iona and the Roman church.

One way of inspiring that research might be to listen to Iona and the Roman church and then try to come up with counter arguments. Just saying.

Annasopra

thee glitz wrote: »

It is so when we are being told that we can have this generally agreeable thing, but only if we also agree to something which many find abhorrent. Allowance of that generally agreeable (abortion in the case of medical necessity, and it already happens, but giving doctors more discretion) will also mean abortion for any/no reason up to a nominal point.

Given what's planned, I will vote No - not because I'm a fan of the 8th, but because it what prevents abortion on demand, protecting the unborn.

I can understand to some extent. The thing is though. Both the citizens assembly and oireachtas committee looked objectively at this issue. They bought in experts. They looked at what happens in the case of women who are raped and incest victims. They looked at how other jurisdictions deal with this. Having looked at it through that prism they came to the conclusion that other jurisdictions have problematic laws in this area and that the only way to prevent retraumatisation of rape snd incest victims is to legaaly allow abortion on request upto 12 weeks.

Annasopra

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I think it's been very quiet. Other than the odd paid advert from pro-life that shows up on my Facebook feed, and those silly adverts on van, I'm only really hearing about it from Boards. I'm going to guess once a date is set, there will be more of a push? The marriage referendum had lots of time, and as a result it turned quite nasty.

I wonder if Kanto/Cambridge Analytica are still pouring all the money in

Annasopra

DubInMeath wrote: »

Thanks the one post on here to actually make me laugh in a good way.

The arguments genuinely get more silly

Annasopra

DubInMeath wrote: »

Given that fundamentalist Muslims don't support abortion I'd assume you'd admire them. Must be confusing for you

Centrist Irish Muslims support the 36th amendment by the way.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/influential-muslim-leader-backs-campaign-for-the-repeal-of-the-eighth-amendment-36641031.html

robarmstrong

Convinced some posters have this playing in the background while they're typin'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ednKK8GlvwI

Yeah that's not even an argument, just a rant by an idiot.
I think people forget that anyone can see most if not all of the posts you make on here. Quite easy to see if someone is a genuine contributor or not.

bertieinexile

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I can understand to some extent.

That really is a breath of fresh air. Great to hear

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The thing is though. Both the citizens assembly and oireachtas committee looked objectively at this issue. They bought in experts. They looked at what happens in the case of women who are raped and incest victims. They looked at how other jurisdictions deal with this. Having looked at it through that prism they came to the conclusion that other jurisdictions have problematic laws in this area and that the only way to prevent retraumatisation of rape snd incest victims is to legaaly allow abortion on request upto 12 weeks.

I will leave you alone about this whole idea that the social sciences have anything to do with objective truth. Do you really mean it.

Neither side is claiming that there was any balance in the collection of experts that was paraded before the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. (And if you're looking for any humour in this whole debate there were some real disasters there). But as someone who, I'd guess, normally thinks of their pro-choice position being founded on reason you'd accept your appeal to experts above is actually an argument from authority.
Lets stick with reason and rational arguments for the moment.

How many women a year in Ireland do you think end up in the awful situation of being pregnant as a result of rape? And what do you think happens to those of them who want abortions? And for them what would change if the 8th was repealed?

Candamir

bertieinexile wrote: »

I note what you are saying but I'm having a hard time drawing out a counter argument in it to what I said above.

Being fed up protesting something doesn't make you either right or popularly supported.

The "very conservative PiS" were at 44% in a recent poll and had a healthy 30% lead over their nearest rival. So I don't suppose they will be making any changes in the law anytime soon.

As far as having days dedicated to things goes, Wednesday was the 13th World Down Syndrome Day.

If I’d wanted to make a counter argument, I’d have made one. It was an observation of the coincidental fact that a protest from 2016 covered in a link posted happened to be on again today.
Maybe don’t always be looking for the argument?

Yes, PiS are quite popular in Poland, particularly among the older generation. A lot of them are also convinced that the Russians were responsible for shooting down the Tupolev carrying their president and many of the top politicians and military that crashed in bad weather on the way to Katyn in 2010.
That’s another observation.

January

freshpopcorn wrote: »

How I started looking at the stuff on Facebook again was I saw a post shared about a local TD not supporting the referendum and how angry somebody was with him.
During the marriage referendum he was a county Councillor and he said he was voting no and in his campaign for the general election in 2016 it was clear he was a pro-life TD.I think it might have even being mentioned on the Vincent Brown debates and yet people were shocked/outraged with him!

Ah Mr. Chambers the little puppet doll who can't canvas on a door without his mammy or daddy hovering at his shoulder ready to answer any out of the ordinary questions for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an ear piece in when he's in the Dáil being fed what to say line by line.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Centrist Irish Muslims support the 36th amendment by the way.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/influential-muslim-leader-backs-campaign-for-the-repeal-of-the-eighth-amendment-36641031.html

I missed this article but did read one previously on his stance against female circumcision.

He appears to be an example of a person who can be deeply religios but also have understanding, compassion and common sense.

freshpopcorn

January wrote: »

Ah Mr. Chambers the little puppet doll who can't canvas on a door without his mammy or daddy hovering at his shoulder ready to answer any out of the ordinary questions for him. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an ear piece in when he's in the Dáil being fed what to say line by line.

It wasn't him. I actually respected him during the marriage referendum when he said he was voting no and gave his reason when he was a county Councillor. Other TD's in my area refused to answer from what I remember. He has always being a clear pro-life TD to me and he topped the poll in the general election. I just don't see how people are shocked/outraged by it.

bertieinexile

bertieinexile wrote: »

How many women a year in Ireland do you think end up in the awful situation of being pregnant as a result of rape? And what do you think happens to those of them who want abortions? And for them what would change if the 8th was repealed?

This question has been posed in the thread already. Tired and going to bed so going to keep my reply short.

Too many.

They are forced to go to England to obtain a termination, purchase termination pills illegally, for which pro life posters on here have said they should be jailed for, or forced to carry to term which for many compounds the mental anguish of being raped.

If repealed they will have a choice to obtain the necessary termination services in their own country.

freshpopcorn

I was on Twitter there and I saw somebody saying that a certain company was funding a keep/repeal campaign. Basically saying we should boycott it.
Will we see much of this in the coming weeks? if businesses show an interest in the campaign? or would it turn you off a company?
Personally here it wouldn't really turn me off purchasing something from the company.

applehunter

Carphone Warehouse

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/carphone-warehouse-slammed-by-both-sides-of-the-abortion-debate-after-their-prochoice-campaign-35166899.html