The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

applehunter

https://twitter.com/KeithMillsD7

Doing some sterling work with polls etc..

Worth a follow from both sides and if you like the Eurovision.:pac:

Turn off your repeal shields.

freshpopcorn

It's not them!

applehunter

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm originally from a country that has legal abortion. And its no big deal. The clinics are discreet. I think it's free. Not sure what limits there as far as how many weeks. Strangely enough there isn't a huge demand as far as I know. There aren't queues of girls/women lining up for abortions. I don't believe there is a frequent flyer card or anything like that. If you need/want an abortion you get one. Of the hundreds of females I know from back home only few have said they had an abortion.

Maybe its because there was compulsory, thorough sex ed and free/subsidised contraception. That probably helps.

I was involved in 2 abortions. I think. A girl at university that I had a ONS with later claimed she had to have an abortion because of it. We used condoms but maybe she was telling the truth. I say maybe because she was stalker crazy! The other was a girl who I was a FB with. Once again we used condoms but as we all know they aren't 100%. Neither of us wanted kids and we certainly didn't want to have a relationship so I took her to the clinic. She had made the appointment. We were interviewed together. They did some tests on her and interviewed her again (to make sure I wasn't forcing her to do it) then she went through for the procedure. It took a few hours from start to finish (interviews, tests, procedure, recovery) then I drove her home. One of her friends came round to look after her that evening and she was back in work the next day (I think).

The amazing thing is with all this going on the country hasn't collapsed, no zombie apocalypse. There's a decent standard of living, good education, robust economy and life goes on.

This post got 16 thanks.

This is not a man to be admired.

Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares.

Is this a plant for the no side?

_Dara_

Why are some people on this so sore about posts receiving multiple thanks?

Zubeneschamali

applehunter wrote: »

https://twitter.com/KeithMillsD7

Keith Mills? Are you joking me?

Achasanai

Mr.H wrote: »

I guess I am being more harsh on the side I stand with because I feel like we are losing the moral high ground with some of the attitudes out there. Mainly on campuses. I feel like sometimes the extreme liberals let down their own side. I think that's why I can come across as on the other side. I do question the pro choice not because I want you or anyone to change your mind. But because I want you to reinforce my mind.

Listen none of this talking might matter but I know a scary amount of people who I thought would be voting yes and will be voting no. I don't think this is straight forward.

I get that some people on the pro-choice side might have issues with some aspects of others who profess the same belief: it's a large group with many different social/age/etc strata. But I really don't think the moral ground is being lost. The stories coming out about the anti-choice side are surely deeply worrying? And yet, we hear nothing from that side on here suggesting that they have issues with the more extreme elements of their side. Interestingly, what we get are three or four posters from the anti-choice brigade slavishly liking every single post you make.

Regardless of this, the end goal should be less who you are lining up with and more whether you agree or not with what you're lining up for.

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I think it's been very quiet. Other than the odd paid advert from pro-life that shows up on my Facebook feed, and those silly adverts on van, I'm only really hearing about it from Boards. I'm going to guess once a date is set, there will be more of a push? The marriage referendum had lots of time, and as a result it turned quite nasty.

I think it's starting. I work in quite a conservative workplace, and people are beginning to talk about it. What's surprising - and kind of the opposite to what Mr H has said has been his experience - is that there are many people I'm talking to - coming from a conservative background or a reactionary one - who have changed their mind in the past few months, and are going to be voting for repeal. Older people, too, including my dad.

I do think Mr H's point about not taking things for granted is a good one. It will be important to talk about this issue with whoever wants to engage or listen.

Edward M

_Dara_ wrote: »

Why are some people on this so sore about posts receiving multiple thanks?

I think apples point went over your head!

Yeah_Right

applehunter wrote: »

This post got 16 thanks.

This is not a man to be admired.

Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares.

Is this a plant for the no side?

Only 16!! I'm gutted.

Children? What children?

Mr.H

applehunter wrote: »

This post got 16 thanks.

This is not a man to be admired.

Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares.

Is this a plant for the no side?

Ah come on now dont go down the murdered route.

I had a go at some of the pro choice antics also but dont start that rubbish.

I really have no problem with people having their own view be it proc choice or pro life. But cant we talk about this stuff without slagging each other?

Instead of saying "Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares."

Why not rephrase and say "Casually he recounts not being able to have two kids, could have been more, who knows, who cares."?

Its talk like this on both sides that stops us as a society from being able to discuss this in the real world. Everyone is in fear of being judged. Really we should be discussing those fears and the reasons for why we are on the side we are on.

At the end of the day regardless of the outcome, we have to live together as a society and move on after this. No need to isolate yourself from your friends who you may find out are on the "wrong side" (no matter which you think is the wrong side of course).

Mr.H

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I was on Twitter there and I saw somebody saying that a certain company was funding a keep/repeal campaign. Basically saying we should boycott it.
Will we see much of this in the coming weeks? if businesses show an interest in the campaign? or would it turn you off a company?
Personally here it wouldn't really turn me off purchasing something from the company.

Surely it would be corporate suicide to take either side?

If the numbers are close to 50/50, even if they are 70/30 you are cutting off a sizable portion of your customer base. Silly if true

Mr.H

DubInMeath wrote: »

This question has been posed in the thread already. Tired and going to bed so going to keep my reply short.

Too many.

They are forced to go to England to obtain a termination, purchase termination pills illegally, for which pro life posters on here have said they should be jailed for, or forced to carry to term which for many compounds the mental anguish of being raped.

If repealed they will have a choice to obtain the necessary termination services in their own country.

I really hope that even if the referendum brings back a no vote, that we do something about this.

Even if it means we bring in something to help these women when travelling to and from and any counselling (I dread to bring that up again) that may be wanted/needed.

no matter what we cant continue as we are

erica74

applehunter wrote: »

This post got 16 thanks.

This is not a man to be admired.

Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares.

Is this a plant for the no side?

You clearly do.

Repeal the 8th.

Ken.

Mod- Just wanted to put in a little note now we are a step or 2 closer to a vote.

Please remember to register to vote. Your name has to be on the list 15 days before the date of the vote. So taking the 25th of may as the most likely date for it your name has to be on the register before Thursday 10th of may.

Whatever way your leaning it's important to register. Also, if you don't register and don't vote you can't complain about the result.

You can apply at any time. However, you can only be included in the supplement used at an election or referendum if your local authority receives your application at least 15 days before polling day. Sundays, public holidays and Good Friday are not counted as days for this purpose.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...g_to_vote.html
__________________

Hannibal_Smith

applehunter wrote: »

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I'm originally from a country that has legal abortion. And its no big deal. The clinics are discreet. I think it's free. Not sure what limits there as far as how many weeks. Strangely enough there isn't a huge demand as far as I know. There aren't queues of girls/women lining up for abortions. I don't believe there is a frequent flyer card or anything like that. If you need/want an abortion you get one. Of the hundreds of females I know from back home only few have said they had an abortion.

Maybe its because there was compulsory, thorough sex ed and free/subsidised contraception. That probably helps.

I was involved in 2 abortions. I think. A girl at university that I had a ONS with later claimed she had to have an abortion because of it. We used condoms but maybe she was telling the truth. I say maybe because she was stalker crazy! The other was a girl who I was a FB with. Once again we used condoms but as we all know they aren't 100%. Neither of us wanted kids and we certainly didn't want to have a relationship so I took her to the clinic. She had made the appointment. We were interviewed together. They did some tests on her and interviewed her again (to make sure I wasn't forcing her to do it) then she went through for the procedure. It took a few hours from start to finish (interviews, tests, procedure, recovery) then I drove her home. One of her friends came round to look after her that evening and she was back in work the next day (I think).

The amazing thing is with all this going on the country hasn't collapsed, no zombie apocalypse. There's a decent standard of living, good education, robust economy and life goes on.

This post got 16 thanks.

This is not a man to be admired.

Casually he recounts 2 of his children being killed, could have been more, who knows, who cares.

Is this a plant for the no side?

He didn't have two children? How did he casually kill two children?

Mr.H

Conspectus wrote:

Please remember to register to vote. Your name has to be on the list 15 days before the date of the vote. So taking the 25th of may as the most likely date for it your name has to be on the register before Thursday 10th of may.

I am already registered but a quick question regarding the 15 days just in case. I was under the assumption it was 15 working days which is obviously just over 3 weeks or more like the start of May rather than the 10th?

I could be wrong but just asking in case anyone is leaving it to the last minute

bertieinexile

DubInMeath wrote: »

Tired and going to bed so going to keep my reply short.

Good, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt that posting on the internet at midnight on a Friday was a bit lame. Good morning again.

DubInMeath wrote: »

This question has been posed in the thread already. Tired and going to bed so going to keep my reply short.

Too many.

They are forced to go to England to obtain a termination, purchase termination pills illegally, for which pro life posters on here have said they should be jailed for, or forced to carry to term which for many compounds the mental anguish of being raped.

If repealed they will have a choice to obtain the necessary termination services in their own country.

I'm only new to this thread so maybe you could point me to where you've dealt with this question at more length.

We should pay some attention though to the actual numbers of women in the extraordinarily awful position of being pregnant as a result of rape. These are real women in a real crisis although it seems at times they are being reduced to tokens in an argument.

2013 is the last year for which a brief search gives me the number of convictions for rape in Ireland. There were about 120. I'm guessing the current number is around the same. What are the odds that the women in any of those cases became pregnant? Assuming that most of those cases were single incidents as opposed to ongoing situations you probably get a total figure of five or six women experiencing such a dreadful crisis a year.

All of them would have had the HSE and government agencies approach them as soon as they reported what had happened and any of them who wanted an abortion (and a number didn't) would have found their way made easier than just about any other woman in Ireland trying to procure an abortion.

Let's say it once and not have to go back to it. None of them were forced to carry to term.

(Some people will say that we should be talking about instances of rape where the accused was acquitted, or the DPP believed they would be acquitted, or the rape wasn't reported in the first place. People may feel that, and there's an argument to be had there, but at that stage I think we have unavoidably moved on to talking about abortion in the case of general unwanted pregnancy. And I don't believe there is a majority in favour of that.)

The important question is what would change for the women in these extraordinary cases if abortion was legalised here. It would be the difference between going to a Marie Stopes clinic in Dublin as opposed to one in Liverpool or London. And in return for that we would have laws that in every other country have lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb.

frag420

Conspectus wrote: »

Mod- Just wanted to put in a little note now we are a step or 2 closer to a vote.

Please remember to register to vote. Your name has to be on the list 15 days before the date of the vote. So taking the 25th of may as the most likely date for it your name has to be on the register before Thursday 10th of may.

Whatever way your leaning it's important to register. Also, if you don't register and don't vote you can't complain about the result.

Flying back next weekend to Re reg and then back in May again to vote!

Repeal!!

Annasopra

bertieinexile wrote: »

That really is a breath of fresh air. Great to hear


I will leave you alone about this whole idea that the social sciences have anything to do with objective truth. Do you really mean it.

Neither side is claiming that there was any balance in the collection of experts that was paraded before the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee. (And if you're looking for any humour in this whole debate there were some real disasters there). But as someone who, I'd guess, normally thinks of their pro-choice position being founded on reason you'd accept your appeal to experts above is actually an argument from authority.
Lets stick with reason and rational arguments for the moment.

How many women a year in Ireland do you think end up in the awful situation of being pregnant as a result of rape? And what do you think happens to those of them who want abortions? And for them what would change if the 8th was repealed?

Yes of course I mean it.

The Oireachtas Committee and Citizens Assembly asked people in a wide range of expertise including you know women themselves affected by the 8th amendment.

Shall we start harrassing every woman who leaves the country? Are you pregnant? Are you going for an abortion? Were you raped? Prove it so that we can statistics to appease people.

Its a very interesting tactic trying to dismiss my arguments as unreasonable and irrational. Why is that? Why are you unable to deal with harsh facts? Why cant you deal with arguments instead of painting them all as biased, unreasonable and irrational?

Ken.

Mr.H wrote: »

I am already registered but a quick question regarding the 15 days just in case. I was under the assumption it was 15 working days which is obviously just over 3 weeks or more like the start of May rather than the 10th?

I could be wrong but just asking in case anyone is leaving it to the last minute

You are sort of right. From citizens info it says

You can apply at any time. However, you can only be included in the supplement used at an election or referendum if your local authority receives your application at least 15 days before polling day. Sundays, public holidays and Good Friday are not counted as days for this purpose.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

NuMarvel

Mr.H wrote: »

I really hope that even if the referendum brings back a no vote, that we do something about this.

Even if it means we bring in something to help these women when travelling to and from and any counselling (I dread to bring that up again) that may be wanted/needed.

no matter what we cant continue as we are

There's very little that can be done to help women who travel in the event of a No vote that isn't already being done. For example, the HSE's Crisis Pregnancy Service already offers an abortion aftercare service: http://www.abortionaftercare.ie, and that includes counselling if needed.

While the 8th is in place, there's little more that the State can do.

January

Conspectus wrote: »

Mod- Just wanted to put in a little note now we are a step or 2 closer to a vote.

Please remember to register to vote. Your name has to be on the list 15 days before the date of the vote. So taking the 25th of may as the most likely date for it your name has to be on the register before Thursday 10th of may.

Whatever way your leaning it's important to register. Also, if you don't register and don't vote you can't complain about the result.

And probably not relevant here because I think it's an older cohort nowadays but could be wrong.

If you're 17 right now but will be 18 on or before the 25th May you can register to vote too.

dudara

bertieinexile wrote: »

2013 is the last year for which a brief search gives me the number of convictions for rape in Ireland. There were about 120. I'm guessing the current number is around the same. What are the odds that the women in any of those cases became pregnant? Assuming that most of those cases were single incidents as opposed to ongoing situations you probably get a total figure of five or six women experiencing such a dreadful crisis a year.

This ”statistical” analysis is woefully shortsighted. 120 convictions for rape, but how many rape cases that weren’t convicted? How many rapes that never got reported? How many cases of incest? And so frth

And focusing on rape as a situation requiring sympathy is also equivalent to wearing blinkers. Any woman that does not want to be pregnant is a case that requires help.

I can understand why people focus on rape, incest, FFA etc. it’s easier to have sympathy or empathy in those cases. Or even a bit of moralistic high-handed ness that you’re helping someone “worse off”. But for this debate to actually achieve anything, it has to be on the basis of ANY woman who does not want to be pregnant. Looking only at specific cases is too limited.

_Dara_

bertieinexile wrote: »

Good, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt that posting on the internet at midnight on a Friday was a bit lame. Good morning again.


I'm only new to this thread so maybe you could point me to where you've dealt with this question at more length.

We should pay some attention though to the actual numbers of women in the extraordinarily awful position of being pregnant as a result of rape. These are real women in a real crisis although it seems at times they are being reduced to tokens in an argument.

2013 is the last year for which a brief search gives me the number of convictions for rape in Ireland. There were about 120. I'm guessing the current number is around the same. What are the odds that the women in any of those cases became pregnant? Assuming that most of those cases were single incidents as opposed to ongoing situations you probably get a total figure of five or six women experiencing such a dreadful crisis a year.

All of them would have had the HSE and government agencies approach them as soon as they reported what had happened and any of them who wanted an abortion (and a number didn't) would have found their way made easier than just about any other woman in Ireland trying to procure an abortion.

Let's say it once and not have to go back to it. None of them were forced to carry to term.

(Some people will say that we should be talking about instances of rape where the accused was acquitted, or the DPP believed they would be acquitted, or the rape wasn't reported in the first place. People may feel that, and there's an argument to be had there, but at that stage I think we have unavoidably moved on to talking about abortion in the case of general unwanted pregnancy. And I don't believe there is a majority in favour of that.)

The important question is what would change for the women in these extraordinary cases if abortion was legalised here. It would be the difference between going to a Marie Stopes clinic in Dublin as opposed to one in Liverpool or London. And in return for that we would have laws that in every other country have lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb.

If only 5 of those 120 end up pregnant and have to travel, that’s too many.

But I want abortion for anyone who wants it before 12 weeks so the number of rape victims who want to avail on these shores is immaterial to me.

bertieinexile

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes of course I mean it.

Well, OK. I don't think most people would expect there to be objective answers to questions about social issues.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The Oireachtas Committee and Citizens Assembly asked people in a wide range of expertise

Arguing from authority - an expert said it so it must be true - wouldn't be considered by many to be a good argument or even an argument at all.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Shall we start harrassing every woman who leaves the country? Are you pregnant? Are you going for an abortion? Were you raped? Prove it so that we can statistics to appease people.

You kind of lost me there. Who is proposing to ask women those questions as they leave the country? How do you statistic to appease people?

_Dara_

Edward M wrote: »

I think apples point went over your head!

Nope, I didn’t. It was an aside.

I disagree with apple’s main point too, if you’re interested. He said the person he quoted was nobody to be admired. I see nothing wrong with the post he quoted.

Edward M

Just came across this as I continue my education on the abortion issue.
In Germany the politicians have framed laws for abortion, while technically it is still illegal under their constitution.
If there was political willingness why could that not be done here?
https://www.thelocal.de/20170914/5-things-to-know-about-abortion-in-germany

bertieinexile

bertieinexile wrote: »

Good, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt that posting on the internet at midnight on a Friday was a bit lame. Good morning again.


I'm only new to this thread so maybe you could point me to where you've dealt with this question at more length.

We should pay some attention though to the actual numbers of women in the extraordinarily awful position of being pregnant as a result of rape. These are real women in a real crisis although it seems at times they are being reduced to tokens in an argument.

2013 is the last year for which a brief search gives me the number of convictions for rape in Ireland. There were about 120. I'm guessing the current number is around the same. What are the odds that the women in any of those cases became pregnant? Assuming that most of those cases were single incidents as opposed to ongoing situations you probably get a total figure of five or six women experiencing such a dreadful crisis a year.

All of them would have had the HSE and government agencies approach them as soon as they reported what had happened and any of them who wanted an abortion (and a number didn't) would have found their way made easier than just about any other woman in Ireland trying to procure an abortion.

Let's say it once and not have to go back to it. None of them were forced to carry to term.

(Some people will say that we should be talking about instances of rape where the accused was acquitted, or the DPP believed they would be acquitted, or the rape wasn't reported in the first place. People may feel that, and there's an argument to be had there, but at that stage I think we have unavoidably moved on to talking about abortion in the case of general unwanted pregnancy. And I don't believe there is a majority in favour of that.)

The important question is what would change for the women in these extraordinary cases if abortion was legalised here. It would be the difference between going to a Marie Stopes clinic in Dublin as opposed to one in Liverpool or London. And in return for that we would have laws that in every other country have lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb.

The number of convictions for rape would be a warped statistic given the number of women who don’t report being raped, failed convictions due to technicalities etc. Also even if just six women are faced with a pregnancy from rape as based on your maths, they should still have the choice to terminate in this country if they wish to do so, hence repeal.

bertieinexile

_Dara_ wrote: »

If only 5 of those 120 end up pregnant and have to travel, that’s too many.

But I want abortion for anyone who wants it before 12 weeks so the number of rape victims who want to avail on these shores is immaterial to me.

The poster before you, dudara, is in favour of abortion on demand and it would seem, based on his/her short post, that would be without any time limit.
You say you are in favour of abortion on demand up to 12 weeks. Given the proposed new legislation, almost certain to be passed if there's a yes vote, what do you believe the actual time limit would be? In practice would there be any?

_Dara_

dudara wrote: »

This ”statistical” analysis is woefully shortsighted. 120 convictions for rape, but how many rape cases that weren’t convicted? How many rapes that never got reported? How many cases of incest? And so frth

And focusing on rape as a situation requiring sympathy is also equivalent to wearing blinkers. Any woman that does not want to be pregnant is a case that requires help.

I can understand why people focus on rape, incest, FFA etc. it’s easier to have sympathy or empathy in those cases. Or even a bit of moralistic high-handed ness that you’re helping someone “worse off”. But for this debate to actually achieve anything, it has to be on the basis of ANY woman who does not want to be pregnant. Looking only at specific cases is too limited.

Absolutely.

_Dara_

bertieinexile wrote: »

The poster before you, dudara, is in favour of abortion on demand and it would seem, based on his/her short post, that would be without any time limit.
You say you are in favour of abortion on demand up to 12 weeks. Given the proposed new legislation, almost certain to be passed if there's a yes vote, what do you believe the actual time limit would be? In practice would there be any?

I think it’ll be 12 weeks.

Of course there will be a limit. Don’t play innocent. It’s transparent.

I should say now that I have zero interest in debating you. You might be new to the thread but it’s been done to death. The thread has a search facility.