The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

NuMarvel

bertieinexile wrote: »

Of course most abortions happen within 13 weeks. But dara and dudara both had issues not with how often late term abortion on demand would happen but whether it should be allowed at all. They want a 12 week limit.
And it is really useful to ask yourself why they feel that.
And whether this proposed legislation even comes close.

The on-request grounds in the final legislation won't go beyond 12 weeks; of that, we can be certain.

Comments about how the law would work beyond that are premature as we don't have anything more than a few lines in a broad policy document to work from. We have no information on what factors doctors will have to consider when making a decision on granting an abortion after the on-request timeframe.

If it is your argument that other grounds would be improperly used to allow abortion "on demand" after the 12 weeks, then you'll have to first define what you mean by "on demand", and secondly provide evidence of this happening in other jurisdictions with similar laws to what's been proposed so far.

bertieinexile

robarmstrong wrote: »

1. You insist upon using the phrase "abortion on demand" when you know that really isn't the case and is just a terminology created by the pro-life side to stir up hysteria.

I am pretty wary of people telling me what language I can use but if it will help in your case... What's your preferred option?
Do you think "abortion on demand" is not an accurate description?

robarmstrong wrote: »

2. I've debunked this earlier in the thread as the pro-life decided to take it upon themselves to say that 1 in 5 of ALL pregnancies end in abortion, then having it slyly underneath that it doesn't take into consideration miscarriages.

Here are the 2016 figures for England.
Live births 663,157
All abortions performed on English residents in England and abroad 177,350
or 21.1% of total
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/uk/ab-ukengland.html

robarmstrong wrote: »

3. Nobody knows the true figure, and nobody will. What would change if the 8th was repealed? These women wouldn't have to leave the country in order to have the medical procedure performed upon them, they'd also receive the appropriate support and aftercare required, as from first hand experience with abortion in the UK, you get a pamphlet, some contraception and you're sent on your merry way.

And what would also change is that around 20% of children would be killed in the womb.
Surely you can see there is a bit of an imbalance

bertieinexile

Sofiztikated wrote: »

https://www.fertilityauthority.com/fertility-issues/miscarriage/missed-miscarriage

A woman can't undergo the D&C if there's a trace of a heartbeat. 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, and 1% of those are missed miscarriages.

I'd say that's a danger to their medical care, due to the 8th.

Dilation and curettage (D&C) is new to me but it seems to be carried out after a miscarriage.
I don't know how it's relevant if there's a heartbeat or what it has to do with abortion.
Maybe I'm wrong

bertieinexile

swampgas wrote: »

Savita. As well you know.

Come on. Seriously. Read up on it

NuMarvel

bertieinexile wrote: »

Here are the 2016 figures for England.
Live births 663,157
All abortions performed on English residents in England and abroad 177,350
or 21.1% of total
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/uk/ab-ukengland.html

The claim is abortion accounts for 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in the UK, but your source only looks at live births and doesn't account for miscarriages, as rob said in the post you quoted.

So, it's already clear that the 1 in 5 figure is inaccurate and the real result is something more less 1 in 5.

pitifulgod

bertieinexile wrote: »

Come on. Seriously. Read up on it

Most on here are well aware, she would be alive if it weren't for the 8th amendment.

Sofiztikated

bertieinexile wrote: »

Dilation and curettage (D&C) is new to me but it seems to be carried out after a miscarriage.
I don't know how it's relevant if there's a heartbeat or what it has to do with abortion.
Maybe I'm wrong

When there's a missed miscarriage, the fetus isn't viable, and is either detected by lack of heartbeat, or no growth. (In the case of my wife, it didn't grow past 5 weeks, but we only found out at the 12 week scan. She miscarried the same day.)

A D&C removes the dead fetal tissue, and all that goes with it. A woman is told to go home, and wait for her body to reject the dead or dying fetus, and then and only then will any procedures take place. It could take hours, could take days. All while her body still acts like it's pregnant. She's at risk of septicemia.

The 8th Amendment does not allow for a termination of that pregnancy.

That's why you are wrong.

swampgas

bertieinexile wrote: »

Come on. Seriously. Read up on it

Ah. So you have moved from the innocent "I'm trying to find out more about this stuff because I'm pro-choice but I have all these concerns, please enlighten me" schtick to "I've read all about it and have my mind made up that it had nothing to do with the 8th", here are my pre-prepared arguments.

Sorry, but you're so transparent it's not even funny. Try harder next time.

bertieinexile

NuMarvel wrote: »

If it is your argument that other grounds would be improperly used to allow abortion "on demand" after the 12 weeks, then you'll have to first define what you mean by "on demand", and secondly provide evidence of this happening in other jurisdictions with similar laws to what's been proposed so far.

Until I hear what other language I am being asked to use, "on demand" means what it sounds like.
The other jurisdiction would be England.
Is that not clear from the post above?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106526304&postcount=1626

bertieinexile

NuMarvel wrote: »

The claim is abortion accounts for 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in the UK, but your source only looks at live births and doesn't account for miscarriages, as rob said in the post you quoted.

So, it's already clear that the 1 in 5 figure is inaccurate and the real result is something more less 1 in 5.

Right. I see how you are trying to calculate things now.
I'm tempted to be sarcastic and say that sounds much better, but we're talking about a hundred and seventy seven thousand deaths and sarcasm doesn't seem appropriate.

david75

bertieinexile wrote: »

Until I hear what other language I am being asked to use, "on demand" means what it sounds like.
The other jurisdiction would be England.
Is that not clear from the post above?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106526304&postcount=1626

‘On demand’ is a phrase only being used by the pro life campaign. It is not on the table for discussion anywhere else. It certainly won’t be in the legislation. The implication is a woman can demand an abortion right up to due date.

It’s simply not true and a very transparentl attempt by pro lifers to cause as much doubt and confusion as possible.

People aren’t stupid. And to lie to them like this and attempt to scaremonger in such a shrieking yet flimsy manner, loses the middle ground and any respect people had for pro life’s position.

If you have to lie, you’re clearly losing.

Mr.H

Sofiztikated wrote:

A D&C removes the dead fetal tissue, and all that goes with it. A woman is told to go home, and wait for her body to reject the dead or dying fetus, and then and only then will any procedures take place. It could take hours, could take days. All while her body still acts like it's pregnant. She's at risk of septicemia.

This only happens if there is a heartbeat. If there isn't, the d&c (I forget what it's called now as they changed the name) is carried out.

bertieinexile

Sofiztikated wrote: »

When there's a missed miscarriage, the fetus isn't viable, and is either detected by lack of heartbeat, or no growth. (In the case of my wife, it didn't grow past 5 weeks, but we only found out at the 12 week scan. She miscarried the same day.)

A D&C removes the dead fetal tissue, and all that goes with it. A woman is told to go home, and wait for her body to reject the dead or dying fetus, and then and only then will any procedures take place. It could take hours, could take days. All while her body still acts like it's pregnant. She's at risk of septicemia.

The 8th Amendment does not allow for a termination of that pregnancy.

That's why you are wrong.

I'm still confused but this sounds like a very personal thing and I don't want to cause you any futher discomfort so we can just drop it if you like.

After a missed miscarriage isn't the fetus dead? So why does the question of termination of pregnancy arise? Why is this relevant to the 8th Amendment?

bertieinexile

swampgas wrote: »

Ah. So you have moved from the innocent "I'm trying to find out more about this stuff because I'm pro-choice but I have all these concerns, please enlighten me" schtick....

Whaaat!??

Mr.H

bertieinexile wrote:

After a missed miscarriage isn't the fetus dead? So why does the question of termination of pregnancy arise? Why is this relevant to the 8th Amendment?

It does in some cases but not all

bertieinexile

david75 wrote: »

‘On demand’ is a phrase only being used by the pro life campaign. It is not on the table for discussion anywhere else. It certainly won’t be in the legislation. The implication is a woman can demand an abortion right up to due date.

It’s simply not true and a very transparentl attempt by pro lifers to cause as much doubt and confusion as possible.

People aren’t stupid. And to lie to them like this and attempt to scaremonger in such a shrieking yet flimsy manner, loses the middle ground and any respect people had for pro life’s position.

If you have to lie, you’re clearly losing.

Considering it is most commonly used as part of the phrase "abortion on demand up to 12 weeks" I don't see how it could be held to logically imply abortion right up to due date.

As for the rest - Take it easy, Francis

Sofiztikated

bertieinexile wrote: »

I'm still confused but this sounds like a very personal thing and I don't want to cause you any futher discomfort so we can just drop it if you like.

After a missed miscarriage isn't the fetus dead? So why does the question of termination of pregnancy arise? Why is this relevant to the 8th Amendment?

It's personal, but it happens.

Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, THAT'S why it's relevant to the 8th. There can be a missed miscarriage, and there still be a faint heartbeat. Like 5 - 8 bpm. Nothing can happen until that heartbeat stops. Anything done before that is a termination of pregnancy.

david75

bertieinexile wrote: »

Considering it is most commonly used as part of the phrase "abortion on demand up to 12 weeks" I don't see how it could be held to logically imply abortion right up to due date.

As for the rest - Take it easy, Francis

Id ask you and your pals to do the same in fairness

Mr.H

I think the phrase abortion on demand is skewing things.

I've used the phrase myself so I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I just think pro choice people think its a phrase to make it sound more sinister. The phrase on demand is more about The fact it is being suggested that it will be unrestricted access to abortion. As in you won't need a medical reason to have one. That is what is meant by "on demand". Doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just a wording that is being argued to stop the actual debate.

david75

To be clear, the phrase is only being used by one side in the debate.

Mr.H

david75 wrote:

To be clear, the phrase is only being used by one side in the debate.

Not really. I used it and I claim to be pro choice. Not that it's anyone's business

Sofiztikated

Mr.H wrote: »

I think the phrase abortion on demand is skewing things.

I've used the phrase myself so I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I just think pro choice people think its a phrase to make it sound more sinister. The phrase on demand is more about The fact it is being suggested that it will be unrestricted access to abortion. As in you won't need a medical reason to have one. That is what is meant by "on demand". Doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just a wording that is being argued to stop the actual debate.

I'm of the same opinion.

Personally, I don't like "by request," because to me, that sounds like the woman has to ask permission, and if she's been a good likkle girl, and asks just nicely enough, she'll get a reward, but if she's a durty little harlot, she'll get what she deserves.

However, there's been more than enough of "What's to stop a woman demanding an abortion in her 48th trimester!!1!1!one!eleventyone!!!"

volchitsa

Mr.H wrote: »

This only happens if there is a heartbeat. If there isn't, the d&c (I forget what it's called now as they changed the name) is carried out.

Do you know this from personal experience or are you just assuming?

Because the lived experience of many women seems to be that many doctors don't want to take the risk of a not-quite-dead fetus being delivered, so tend to leave nature to run its course, despite the massively increased risk of infection for the woman.

_Dara_

swampgas wrote: »

Ah. So you have moved from the innocent "I'm trying to find out more about this stuff because I'm pro-choice but I have all these concerns, please enlighten me" schtick to "I've read all about it and have my mind made up that it had nothing to do with the 8th", here are my pre-prepared arguments.

Sorry, but you're so transparent it's not even funny. Try harder next time.

Yup yup yup.

david75

Mr.H wrote: »

Not really. I used it and I claim to be pro choice. Not that it's anyone's business

Yeah. I’m in the market for a bridge in New York or any random historical landmarks if you’re selling any?

Billy86

"On Demand"
- at any time that someone wants or needs something.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/on-demand

Anyone trying to claim the referendum is about "on demand" abortion deserves to be called out for the lying charlatan they are.

Sofiztikated

Mr.H wrote: »

This only happens if there is a heartbeat. If there isn't, the d&c (I forget what it's called now as they changed the name) is carried out.

volchitsa wrote: »

Do you know this from personal experience or are you just assuming?

Because the lived experience of many women seems to be that many doctors don't want to take the risk of a not-quite-dead fetus being delivered, so tend to leave nature to run its course, despite the massively increased risk of infection for the woman.

My wife was sent home from the scan, and we were told to come back in the morning to see the doc, or if there was any bleeding to come in ER.

We were only home an hour.

david75

Want to lower the abortion rate? Support pro-choice policies
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/24/want-to-lower-the-abortion-rate-support-pro-choice-policies

volchitsa

Mr.H wrote: »

I think the phrase abortion on demand is skewing things.

I've used the phrase myself so I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I just think pro choice people think its a phrase to make it sound more sinister. The phrase on demand is more about The fact it is being suggested that it will be unrestricted access to abortion. As in you won't need a medical reason to have one. That is what is meant by "on demand". Doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just a wording that is being argued to stop the actual debate.

Oh Ive used it too, but I've come to realize that even pro choice in Ireland has long been influenced by the Catholic ethos in the country and has allowed their side to make the running : remember in 1983 the anti-amendment side wasn't even saying abortion should be allowed, that was just unimaginable, they were only saying the amendment was a bad, unworkable idea.

Of course they were called baby killers and the rest of it. And many of the terms we still use date from that time when they made all the running. So I think we need to take back the language used.

erica74

"Abortion on demand" is being used primarily by the antichoice side to conjure up imagery of us all running into the abortion shop every Sunday morning after yet another one night stand (because the only women who have abortions are dirty women who pick up strange men in nightclubs on Saturday nights) to demand yet another abortion as a form of contraception. Sure they're great fun altogether, bit of brunch then afterwards.
I believe, to the antichoice side, abortion on demand means abortion as contraception.