The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

thee glitz

david75 wrote: »

Want to lower the abortion rate? Support pro-choice policies
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/24/want-to-lower-the-abortion-rate-support-pro-choice-policies

To save a click or 2, this means access to contraception.

ProfessorPlum

bertieinexile wrote: »

Dilation and curettage (D&C) is new to me but it seems to be carried out after a miscarriage.
I don't know how it's relevant if there's a heartbeat or what it has to do with abortion.
Maybe I'm wrong

There’s a few subcategories of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion.

Most are complete abortions, where the foetus dies and is expelled completely and naturally with no intervention.

Missed abortions are where the foetus dies, but the contents of the uterus is not expelled.

Incomplete abortion is where the foetus dies and only some of the uterine contents are expelled naturally.

Inevitable abortion is where the process of miscarriage has started, and cannot be stopped, but the foetus is still alive, but will die soon.

These can all be managed expectantly (ie ‘wait and see’), medically with drugs to encourage contractions, or surgically usually by d&c. The management approach chosen will depend on each individual case, and all methods are reasonable. Often if there are no other indicators an expectant approach will be taken.

In Ireland in incomplete inevitable abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk.

In other countries women in this situation would be offered medical or surgical management, and if there are other factors such as ruptured membranes, then such management would be considered best practice due to the risk of infection. As we know, onset of infection can be insidious and rapid and surprisingly difficult to diagnose.

ProfessorPlum

thee glitz wrote: »

To save a click or 2, this means access to contraception.

And comprehensive non abstinence based sex education.

david75

thee glitz wrote: »

To save a click or 2, this means access to contraception.

Pro lifer in fact cherry picking shocker!

thee glitz

erica74 wrote: »

"Abortion on demand" is being used primarily by the antichoice side to conjure up imagery...

Use of the term "antichoice" is being used to suggest that pro-life is a position men who want to control women adopt. And then people get upset about not being able to have a choice. Why do we have any laws though... why do we lock out front doors behind us - do we not trust women? Or maybe men are the problem?

I believe, to the antichoice side, abortion on demand means abortion as contraception.

Not really - only 50 women in the UK have had 8 or more abortions.

robarmstrong

bertieinexile wrote: »

I am pretty wary of people telling me what language I can use but if it will help in your case... What's your preferred option?
Do you think "abortion on demand" is not an accurate description?


Here are the 2016 figures for England.
Live births 663,157
All abortions performed on English residents in England and abroad 177,350
or 21.1% of total
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/uk/ab-ukengland.html



And what would also change is that around 20% of children would be killed in the womb.
Surely you can see there is a bit of an imbalance

It isn't an accurate statement, it's purely being used to throw in to cause hysteria, nothing more.

The stats you have shown have actually been proven wrong, they do not include miscarriage, you can't say 1 in 5 of all pregnancies end in abortion and say (not including miscarriages!). It's extremely biased and in my opinion very sly. One in every 7/8 pregnancy ends in an abortion when miscarriage is involved.

Are you trying to tell me that there were no miscarriages in the UK? That children were either born or they were aborted?

NuMarvel

bertieinexile wrote: »

Until I hear what other language I am being asked to use, "on demand" means what it sounds like.
The other jurisdiction would be England.
Is that not clear from the post above?
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106526304&postcount=1626

If you can't even provide a definition of what you mean by abortion on demand, then you're not going to be very successful in discussing the matter properly.

As for England, they don't have laws similar to what's proposed here as their laws don't provide for an on-request model at all. And in any case, there's nothing in the post you've linked to that supports your claims about abortion on other grounds being improperly used to allow abortion "on demand" (whatever definition you're using for it).

bertieinexile wrote: »

Right. I see how you are trying to calculate things now.
I'm tempted to be sarcastic and say that sounds much better, but we're talking about a hundred and seventy seven thousand deaths and sarcasm doesn't seem appropriate.

You can save the sarcasm and focus on accuracy. The claim is plainly wrong.

Zubeneschamali

bertieinexile wrote: »

Dilation and curettage (D&C) is new to me

Why on earth do you imagine you can weigh in and lecture people here when you are so ignorant on the topic?

erica74

thee glitz wrote: »

Use of the term "antichoice" is being used to suggest that pro-life is a position men who want to control women adopt. And then people get upset about not being able to have a choice. Why do we have any laws though... why do we lock out front doors behind us - do we not trust women? Or maybe men are the problem?



Not really - only 50 women in the UK have had 8 or more abortions.

What are you on about? Why do you feel the need to separate men from women?

If you are "prolife" then you are antichoice. You want to continue to deny women the right to choose how to proceed with a pregnancy when it really has nothing to do with you.

I believe, to the antichoice side, abortion on demand means abortion as contraception.

I based this statement on what I have read particularly in this thread and the last about "abortion on demand".

Not really - only 50 women in the UK have had 8 or more abortions.

I'm not sure how this relates to what I said.

captbarnacles

Demand is a poor word for it as nobody really likes anyone demanding anything.

I vote it is relabelled 'request to discontinue pregnancy'.

Edward M

robarmstrong wrote: »

It isn't an accurate statement, it's purely being used to throw in to cause hysteria, nothing more.

The stats you have shown have actually been proven wrong, they do not include miscarriage, you can't say 1 in 5 of all pregnancies end in abortion and say (not including miscarriages!). It's extremely biased and in my opinion very sly. One in every 7/8 pregnancy ends in an abortion when miscarriage is involved.

Are you trying to tell me that there were no miscarriages in the UK? That children were either born or they were aborted?

Have a look at this.
http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

thee glitz

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

And comprehensive non abstinence based sex education.

That probably goes hand-in-hand with availability of contraception. No harm in teaching about abstinence too, not that there's anything tricky there. Cause and effect etc.

david75 wrote: »

Pro lifer in fact cherry picking shocker!

Lad it's you're link and the title, as presented as relevant here, may mislead some.

Candamir

thee glitz wrote: »

That probably goes hand-in-hand with availability of contraception. No harm in teaching about abstinence too, not that there's anything tricky there. Cause and effect etc.

Well it’s been fairly comprehensively proven that abstinence only sex education leads to an increase in teen pregnancy, as well as an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. So it’s not quite as straight forward as cause and effect. etc.

david75

Candamir wrote: »

Well it’s been fairly comprehensively proven that abstinence only sex education leads to an increase in teen pregnancy, as well as an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. So it’s not quite as straight forward as cause and effect. etc.

These are facts that you’ll never see the pro life crowd cherry pick from the fact buffet. They treat these awkward truths like the cocktail sausages in the buffet that look off to them so they disregard them.

thee glitz

erica74 wrote: »

What are you on about? Why do you feel the need to separate men from women?

It's not me - pro-choice supporters often base their arguments on it should being a woman's right to choose.

If you are "prolife" then you are antichoice. You want to continue to deny women the right to choose how to proceed with a pregnancy when it really has nothing to do with you.

Anti-choice in general, or just on this one specific matter? You attach negative connotations to pro-life ideology, to the belief that all human lives deserve protection. Ordinarily, we could hope that foetuses wouldn't need that against their mother, but so it is.

I based this statement on what I have read particularly in this thread and the last about "abortion on demand".

You'd do well not to take everything you read here at face value!

I'm not sure how this relates to what I said.

I think it does relate.

robarmstrong

Edward M wrote: »

Have a look at this.
http://abort73.com/abortion_facts/uk_abortion_statistics/

Yeah, it was posted already. It even states they don't include miscarriages, did you read it? Honestly, did you actually read what you've posted? They go on to claim 1 in 5 of all pregnancies ends in abortion and then go on to say (excluding miscarriage), how difficult is that to grasp I mean Jesus Christ this has been done to death.

"Approximately 20% of all pregnancies in Great Britain (excluding spontaneous miscarriages) currently end in abortion."

So biased it's ridiculous. The statement they make literally is to suit their own agenda if you can't see it I honestly don't know what to tell you, I really, really don't.

thee glitz

Candamir wrote: »

Well it’s been fairly comprehensively proven that abstinence only sex education leads to an increase in teen pregnancy, as well as an increase in sexually transmitted diseases. So it’s not quite as straight forward as cause and effect. etc.

I didn't say anything about abstinence only sex-ed.

pitifulgod

thee glitz wrote: »

I didn't say anything about abstinence only sex-ed.

Pretty much every high quality sex education class addresses peer pressure and consent etc... So nobody is expected to conclude sex is mandatory or expected to occur at a specific age.

Edward M

robarmstrong wrote: »

Yeah, it was posted already. It even states they don't include miscarriages, did you read it? Honestly, did you actually read what you've posted? They go on to claim 1 in 5 of all pregnancies ends in abortion and then go on to say (excluding miscarriage), how difficult is that to grasp I mean Jesus Christ this has been done to death.

"Approximately 20% of all pregnancies in Great Britain (excluding spontaneous miscarriages) currently end in abortion."

So biased it's ridiculous. The statement they make literally is to suit their own agenda if you can't see it I honestly don't know what to tell you, I really, really don't.

If the need and choice is there, and you support choice, why would you try to rubbish the figures.
It would be reasonable to assume also that some spontaneous miscarriages might just as easily end up being voluntarily aborted.
Personally, I have no fear of the figures, even if higher, are you afraid they might cause concern somewhere?
Have you any link to figures disputing them?

Candamir

thee glitz wrote: »

I didn't say anything about abstinence only sex-ed.

No. I didn’t say you did.

My point was related to your simplistic “cause and effect” comment :rolleyes:

robarmstrong

Edward M wrote: »

If the need and choice is there, and you support choice, why would you try to rubbish the figures.
It would be reasonable to assume also that some spontaneous miscarriages might just as easily end up being voluntarily aborted.
Personally, I have no fear of the figures, even if higher, are you afraid they might cause concern somewhere?
Have you any link to figures disputing them?

Because the figures aren't accurate. 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in the UK do NOT end in abortion, why is it so difficult for you to grasp this?

I'm gonna type this in caps because you're quite clearly failing to understand this. THE STUDY STATES THAT ONE IN FIVE OF ALL PREGNANCIES END IN ABORTION. THEY GO ON TO STATE THAT THEY ARE DISCOUNTING MISCARRIAGE FROM THIS STAT. THEREFORE THEY ARE MANIPULATING THE STAT TO SUIT THEIR AGENDA.

The figures are wildly inaccurate, and they are quite clearly geared towards suiting the pro-life agenda. The very link you posted disputes it's own figures Jesus Christ do I need to grab a colouring book and some crayons to get this to sink in, nobody can be THAT ignorant, you're either trolling, goading or you're blatantly carrying this on on purpose.

thee glitz

pitifulgod wrote: »

Pretty much every high quality sex education class addresses peer pressure and consent etc... So nobody is expected to conclude sex is mandatory or expected to occur at a specific age.

Sounds good ye.

Candamir wrote: »

No. I didn’t say you did.

My point was related to your simplistic “cause and effect” comment :rolleyes:

You've replied to some point I didn't make. Just saying that I don't disagree with you.

Edward M

robarmstrong wrote: »

Because the figures aren't accurate. 1 in 5 of all pregnancies in the UK do NOT end in abortion, why is it so difficult for you to grasp this?

I'm gonna type this in caps because you're quite clearly failing to understand this. THE STUDY STATES THAT ONE IN FIVE OF ALL PREGNANCIES END IN ABORTION. THEY GO ON TO STATE THAT THEY ARE DISCOUNTING MISCARRIAGE FROM THIS STAT. THEREFORE THEY ARE MANIPULATING THE STAT TO SUIT THEIR AGENDA.

The figures are wildly inaccurate, and they are quite clearly geared towards suiting the pro-life agenda. The very link you posted disputes it's own figures Jesus Christ do I need to grab a colouring book and some crayons to get this to sink in, nobody can be THAT ignorant, you're either trolling, goading or you're blatantly carrying this on on purpose.

Well if my mind wasn't made up, someone showed me that link of figures up against your, "Jesus Christ" .... I think I'd be looking at the figures as being pretty close to correct.

david75

If only there were rules in referenda that prohibited dishonesty lies cherry picking nonsense hysteria and misrepresentation of facts.

The pro life campaign would have nothing to talk about.

pleas advice

How about 'a figure equivalent to one quarter of all live births are aborted' ?

david75

So a new born baby in extreme agony unable to breathe and suffering Severe pain and distress, just for a few minutes life is preferable to abortion. That’s just disgusting


don’t even know what to say to this.

https://twitter.com/emeraldkc/status/977604557974003713?s=21

NuMarvel

"Join the Rebellion"? They know rebellions are typically opposed to the status quo, right? Whereas they're campaigning for it.

They're not the Rebellion, they're the Empire!

Zubeneschamali

david75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/emeraldkc/status/977604557974003713?s=21

Google Scholar is a search engine which searches published papers in journals.

"Fatal Fetal Abnormality" gets about 58,000 hits.

"Fatal Foetal Abnormality" gets about 26,500.

I strongly suspect that Jim Dornan is being quoted out of context or misquoted.

mzungu

david75 wrote: »

So a new born baby in extreme agony unable to breathe and suffering Severe pain and distress, just for a few minutes life is preferable to abortion. That’s just disgusting


don’t even know what to say to this.

https://twitter.com/emeraldkc/status/977604557974003713?s=21

.

A search of the Wiley Online Library (a database of academic resources available online) for the term “fatal foetal abnormality” produces 2649 results. Searching for the American spelling “fatal fetal abnormality” produces 9513 results: over a thousand books, over eight thousand articles and 45 different Cochrane reviews covering over 100 research articles involving over a million women use the term “fatal foetal abnormality”. It is a medical term.

https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2016/07/06/fatal-foetal-abnormality/

pleas advice

'abortion on demand' gets 393,000 hits

the specific phrase "abortion on demand" gets 9,460