The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Zubeneschamali

In fairness, this is a tweet quoting a someone talking on a TV show.

I would be slow to pin the literal meaning of the soundbite of the Professor.

Zubeneschamali

pleas advice wrote: »

'abortion on demand' gets 393,000 hits

the specific phrase "abortion on demand" gets 9,460

Elephantiasis gets 36,500 hits. This is fun.

marsbar1

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

Timberrrrrrrr

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

How would abortion be the "destruction of ireland"? And what exactly are "Irish values"?

marsbar1

The election of Leo Varadkar was one of those nails in the coffin. Its was like the election of Obama in the USA. I predict Ireland will have to be nearly destroyed before people wake up to see the damage, and then Ireland will have it's Trump Antidote in the next Taoiseach

david75

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

Ireland and Irish values?

Well then you no doubt have problems with consecutive governments selling us off to vulture funds and banks and you’re all for socially progressive endeavours? Like marriage equality and abortion?

Hammer Archer

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

So you were against decriminalizing homosexuality? Against allowing unmarried mothers raise their children in the community, instead imprisoning them and shipping their kids to America,. Against punishing priests for raping children, instead moving them on to other areas where they could destroy more children. Against crimilizing rape in marriage, instead allowing abusive husbands to do whatever they wanted to to their wives without fear of being punished.
Grand. Sounds horrific but if that's what you want...

marsbar1

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

How would abortion be the "destruction of ireland"? And what exactly are "Irish values"?

Just look how England is unrecognisable in many towns and cities. I don't want to see that to happen to Ireland. There are those who need to follow religion to keep on track, they can't to it without as society is teaching no values and morals anymore.

bertieinexile

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

There’s a few subcategories of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion.

Most are complete abortions, where the foetus dies and is expelled completely and naturally with no intervention.

Missed abortions are where the foetus dies, but the contents of the uterus is not expelled.

Incomplete abortion is where the foetus dies and only some of the uterine contents are expelled naturally.

Inevitable abortion is where the process of miscarriage has started, and cannot be stopped, but the foetus is still alive, but will die soon.

These can all be managed expectantly (ie ‘wait and see’), medically with drugs to encourage contractions, or surgically usually by d&c. The management approach chosen will depend on each individual case, and all methods are reasonable. Often if there are no other indicators an expectant approach will be taken.

In Ireland in incomplete abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk.

In other countries women in this situation would be offered medical or surgical management, and if there are other factors such as ruptured membranes, then such management would be considered best practice due to the risk of infection. As we know, onset of infection can be insidious and rapid and surprisingly difficult to diagnose.

Thanks for that. It was very informative.

I guess the second last paragraph should be
"In Ireland in inevitable abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk."

So in this case we're describing a woman who is under medical supervision and for whom the best practice under the 8th amendment would be to intervene to save her life if that became necessary.

Of course there is also the major issue of how upsetting and difficult it is for the woman to have to wait in those circumstances. There is no doubt about that but is it enough to merit introducing abortion on demand/ unrestricted access to abortion/ abortion on request/ whatever/ up to twelve weeks and in practice no actual limit?

Thanks again for the informative post.

marsbar1

Hammer Archer wrote: »

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

So you were against decriminalizing homosexuality? Against allowing unmarried mothers raise their children in the community,  instead imprisoning them and shipping their kids to America,. Against punishing priests for raping children, instead moving them on to other areas where they could destroy more children. Against crimilizing rape in marriage, instead allowing abusive husbands to do whatever they wanted to to their wives without fear of being punished.
Grand. Sounds horrific but if that's what you want...

Of course not. I think it unfair to use the terrible abuse of the church as a counter arguement in this.

david75

marsbar1 wrote: »

Just look how England is unrecognisable in many towns and cities. I don't want to see that to happen to Ireland. There are those who need to follow religion to keep on track, they can't to it without as society is teaching no values and morals anymore.

Ireland just saw the graduation of its first ever non national police officer today.
This isn’t borne of any racism. It’s just non nationals are almost new here. I’m ****ing over the moon. He’s literally a black guard (the most insulting harsh insult in all Irish). But in the best way. This is brilliant he’s facing an institutional horror though. The CIA said the Irish police are the most secretive orginisation currently active. They answer to no one. But I’m just happy this happened. I hope he sticks it out

So **** you you racist ugly minded prick. You are not of Ireland. You don’t not speak for Ireland or it’s People.

https://twitter.com/iamblirish/status/977524020584308736?s=21

Hammer Archer

marsbar1 wrote: »

Of course not. I think it unfair to use the terrible abuse of the church as a counter arguement in this.

They were Irish values. Like it or not.

bertieinexile

robarmstrong wrote: »

The stats you have shown have actually been proven wrong, they do not include miscarriage, you can't say 1 in 5 of all pregnancies end in abortion and say (not including miscarriages!). It's extremely biased and in my opinion very sly. One in every 7/8 pregnancy ends in an abortion when miscarriage is involved.

Are you trying to tell me that there were no miscarriages in the UK? That children were either born or they were aborted?

So I understand you want to include miscarriages in your calculation in order to make the number of abortion procedures a smaller fraction of the new total. This seems like a weird direction to want to take things.

But, to indulge you, would you prefer

The proposed legislation would lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb whenever a woman has a choice in the matter.

That sounds a hell of a lot worse to me but what do you think?

marsbar1

david75 wrote: »

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

Ireland and Irish values?

Well then you no doubt have problems with consecutive governments selling us off to vulture funds and banks and you’re all for socially progressive endeavours? Like marriage equality and abortion?

It's very strange how by objecting to one thing I am assumed to automatically be in favour of other things. But for the record, banks should have never been bailed out by the Irish taxpayer, many in government were as bad as the banks. Marriage equality didn't need to be given, civil ceremonies were perfectly adequate, and so say my friends who had them.

Madscientist30

marsbar1 wrote: »

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

How would abortion be the "destruction of ireland"? And what exactly are "Irish values"?

Just look how England is unrecognisable in many towns and cities. I don't want to see that to happen to Ireland. There are those who need to follow religion to keep on track, they can't to it without as society is teaching no values and morals anymore.

Yeah and look at what happened to Boston in the US, it's like a mini Ireland over there!

Madscientist30

marsbar1 wrote: »

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

marsbar1 wrote: »

I'm actually completely pro abortion. But anti the destruction of Ireland and Irish values. This is just another nail in the coffin

How would abortion be the "destruction of ireland"? And what exactly are "Irish values"?

Just look how England is unrecognisable in many towns and cities. I don't want to see that to happen to Ireland. There are those who need to follow religion to keep on track, they can't to it without as society is teaching no values and morals anymore.

Yeah and look at what happened to Boston in the US, it's like a mini Ireland over there!

bertieinexile

NuMarvel wrote: »

If you can't even provide a definition of what you mean by abortion on demand, then you're not going to be very successful in discussing the matter properly.

I can't believe the amount of energy that has been put in to discussing the phrase "abortion on demand". I honestly can't see why - and no one seems to have made much of an effort to explain.

NuMarvel wrote: »

As for England, they don't have laws similar to what's proposed here as their laws don't provide for an on-request model at all. And in any case, there's nothing in the post you've linked to that supports your claims about abortion on other grounds being improperly used to allow abortion "on demand" (whatever definition you're using for it).

The proposed Irish law provides an on request model up to 12 weeks.
As you say, the law in england, as written, doesn't provide an on request model at all.
But the law in england as interpreted and improperly used (the mental health exception) does amount to an on request model up to 24 weeks.
The proposed Irish law will provide the same opportunity for improper use without any time limit at all.
The only difficulty in comparing the proposed Irish regime with the regime in england is that under the Irish it will be even easier and more straightforward to request an abortion than it currently is in england. And, in practice, the law wouldn't provide any time limits.

pleas advice

NuMarvel wrote: »

If you can't even provide a definition of what you mean by abortion on demand,..

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abortion+on+demand
abortion on demand
the absence of restrictive legal statutes giving a woman the right to terminate a pregnancy at her request. That right may be limited by time of gestation, or it may pertain to any period of gestation.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 9th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.

Madscientist30

bertieinexile wrote: »

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

There’s a few subcategories of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion.

Most are complete abortions, where the foetus dies and is expelled completely and naturally with no intervention.

Missed abortions are where the foetus dies, but the contents of the uterus is not expelled.

Incomplete abortion is where the foetus dies and only some of the uterine contents are expelled naturally.

Inevitable abortion is where the process of miscarriage has started, and cannot be stopped, but the foetus is still alive, but will die soon.

These can all be managed expectantly (ie ‘wait and see’), medically with drugs to encourage contractions, or surgically usually by d&c. The management approach chosen will depend on each individual case, and all methods are reasonable. Often if there are no other indicators an expectant approach will be taken.

In Ireland in incomplete abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk.

In other countries women in this situation would be offered medical or surgical management, and if there are other factors such as ruptured membranes, then such management would be considered best practice due to the risk of infection. As we know, onset of infection can be insidious and rapid and surprisingly difficult to diagnose.

Thanks for that. It was very informative.

I guess the second last paragraph should be
"In Ireland in inevitable abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk."

So in this case we're describing a woman who is under medical supervision and for whom the best practice under the 8th amendment would be to intervene to save her life if that became necessary.

Of course there is also the major issue of how upsetting and difficult it is for the woman to have to wait in those circumstances. There is no doubt about that but is it enough to merit introducing abortion on demand/ unrestricted access to abortion/ abortion on request/ whatever/ up to twelve weeks and in practice no actual limit?

Thanks again for the informative post.

It's not just emotionally upsetting. Physically there is a risk of infection that may never become life-threatening but may affect health. I was just reading the story online this week of a woman going through this now, it was her and her husbands first pregnancy, very much wanted, the baby stopped developing weeks ago but the heartbeat, though slow still hasnt stopped completely, so she is waiting. She has a very high risk of infection in her womb now which may make her infertile. So because of the 8th she not only has to go through her current heartache but herself and her husband may never be able to have children. That, to me, is devastating and it is a situation that any woman can find themselves in this country. To think that your life and hopes and dreams can just be curtailed like that for no good reason.

Timberrrrrrrr

marsbar1 wrote: »

Just look how England is unrecognisable in many towns and cities. I don't want to see that to happen to Ireland. There are those who need to follow religion to keep on track, they can't to it without as society is teaching no values and morals anymore.

I live in England, I don't get what you mean by this?

Ken.

Mod-Marsbar1 do not post in this thread again. Reason-trolling

Neyite

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I live in England, I don't get what you mean by this?

Well, they are thread banned, but presumably they mean that England no longer resembles an Enid Blyton book.

And probably is sad that Ireland is no longer akin to watching The Quiet Man because we have stuff like indoor plumbing and electricity and we aren't respectfully tugging our forelocks and bowing when the village priest swept past.

But those were fictional portrayals and we know now that they were a cover for a darker and more sinister culture of abuses by those in power towards the vulnerable and the poor.

That poster needs to line up a few classic Oirish movies - Like the Quiet Man, Darby O'Gill and The Field and get their nostalgia hit rather than try to change a nation trying to move away from that grim existence. And now that they are thread banned, they'll have lots of time to catch up on those movies

robarmstrong

bertieinexile wrote: »

So I understand you want to include miscarriages in your calculation in order to make the number of abortion procedures a smaller fraction of the new total. This seems like a weird direction to want to take things.

But, to indulge you, would you prefer

The proposed legislation would lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb whenever a woman has a choice in the matter.

That sounds a hell of a lot worse to me but what do you think?

Right, see the stats that were posted, the near 700k live births and near 190-200k abortions? Are you honestly, honestly now, telling me that there was not a single miscarriage in the UK? Do you realise how absurd that sounds?

The proposed legislation does NOT lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb whenever a woman has a choice in the matter because 20% of children are NOT killed in the womb. Are you's actually that blind that you're going off a list printed by an anti-abortion website that conveniently leaves out one of the most common ways a pregnancy ends?

I'm reporting you all and hope you's toss off this discussion, f*ck off back under your bridge this carry on is ridiculous, you and your thanks buddy's are blatantly disregarding one of the most common ways a pregnancy ends to promote the 1 IN 5 PREGNANCIES ARE TERMINATED!!! bollocks. This is beyond a joke at this stage.

pleas advice

robarmstrong wrote: »

This is beyond a joke at this stage.

indeed

robarmstrong

pleas advice wrote: »

indeed

How difficult is it to understand that? I mean really? You posted something I would genuinely somewhat agree with (1 in every 5 live births ends in abortion) -

But the others? Sheer ignorance of the numbers in that article and are sticking to them religiously despite how inaccurate they are, you cannot make a statement as wild as "one in five of ALL pregnancies end in abortion" and then say oh but miscarriages don't count. Miscarriages are a common end to a pregnancy - one in every four women suffer a miscarriage - to disregard such a significant number just to further an agenda is outrageous and extremely disrespectful to the women who underwent those pregnancies. I mean seriously how difficult is that to comprehend?

amdublin

pleas advice wrote: »

indeed

You're agreeing with what Robarmstrong is saying is beyond a joke?

Or you are saying something else?

Elaborate please

robarmstrong

amdublin wrote: »

You're agreeing with what Robarmstrong is saying is beyond a joke?

Or you are saying something else?

Elaborate please

The level of trolling/sheer baiting is getting ridiculous at this stage I mean the complete ignorance of miscarriage as a way of a pregnancy ending is just beyond astounding. I'm gobsmacked that this can't be grasped.

david75

Do we have a scoreboard of people having been banned from this thread?
Cos it’s usually only one side lying deceiving and misleading.

Be interesting to see the stats.

bertieinexile

robarmstrong wrote: »

Right, see the stats that were posted, the near 700k live births and near 190-200k abortions? Are you honestly, honestly now, telling me that there was not a single miscarriage in the UK? Do you realise how absurd that sounds?

The proposed legislation does NOT lead to 20% of children being killed in the womb whenever a woman has a choice in the matter because 20% of children are NOT killed in the womb. Are you's actually that blind that you're going off a list printed by an anti-abortion website that conveniently leaves out one of the most common ways a pregnancy ends?

OK. Let's parse this really carefully.
In 20% of the cases where a woman gets to choose a child dies.
God, that sounds even worse

robarmstrong wrote: »

I'm reporting you all and hope you's toss off this discussion, f*ck off back under your bridge this carry on is ridiculous,

Really rob? Do you know what I'm hearing? A guy who just wants to be loved.

Edward M

robarmstrong wrote: »

How difficult is it to understand that? I mean really? You posted something I would genuinely somewhat agree with (1 in every 5 live births ends in abortion) -

But the others? Sheer ignorance of the numbers in that article and are sticking to them religiously despite how inaccurate they are, you cannot make a statement as wild as "one in five of ALL pregnancies end in abortion" and then say oh but miscarriages don't count. Miscarriages are a common end to a pregnancy - one in every four women suffer a miscarriage - to disregard such a significant number just to further an agenda is outrageous and extremely disrespectful to the women who underwent those pregnancies. I mean seriously how difficult is that to comprehend?

Instead of shouting the odds you should have looked it up, google is your friend.
Around 1 in 5 pregnancies in the UK end up in miscarriage. I assume that's spontaneous miscarriage.
Looking to get people banned for posting figures, schoolyard tantrums, grow up.

https://www.miscarriageassociation.org.uk/media-queries/background-information/