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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP
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Why is there compassion needed for the unborn baby and not the woman who is pregnant?
IMO what the author says is absolutely correct and encompasses how I feel about the unborn baby.
I'm not arguing her article or your point of view as such at all.
I just imagine and from my own perspective even, if that was the reason alone repeal was being sought I might vote no.
Repeal is winning as the polls show, put the abortion issue in to it and then the opinion closes in.
I think losing sight of that and making statements like that won't sway the opinion of anyone having doubts over the abortion issue.
There are very important reasons medically, physically and mentally for repeal, that paragraph I quoted wouldn't IMO be the right way to sway doubters.0 -
broken after reading this.
”In 2015 I was 21, and beaming with excitement that I was pregnant with our first child, same time as my sister too.
At a routine check up at 23 weeks I was scanned to find out I hardly had any amniotic fluid. We were told the devastating news that our baby had no kidneys, no bladder, very bad spine bifida, holes in his little heart and brain damage, but yet his heart was beating perfect. He didn’t know once he was out of my womb that he had no chance of survival.
I felt sick, I felt numb, and I felt robbed. I just got up and ran out of the room. I ran outside, sat on a bench at the side of the hospital sobbing my heart out with loads of people walking by me. One man stopped, he never asked what’s wrong but just wrapped his arms around me and said “you will be ok pet” I just cried my eyes out, and he walked away. I will never forget that man.
The hospital was referring me to another hospital but they said it could take 2 or 3 days. I couldn’t wait that long, so I went straight onto the internet for a private scan and got one that day. My partner’s sister brought us. On the way up I was praying, praying so hard to everyone in heaven, to God, “please let them be wrong, it was a mistake, my baby will be fine please” we got there and paid around €170 for the scan. The woman was lovely, I think her name was Monica, she scanned me and I could see straight away by her face that it was bad news. She just told us what the hospital told us. She tried so hard to get me a picture of the baby’s face on the 3D scan, left the room and came back in with 2 envelopes one with the scan pictures, and the other with our money back, she said she couldn’t accept it. She was a lady I would of paid any amount for that scan but she gave us our money back which I thought was nice.
We then went to the rotunda hospital a few days later, I remember sitting in the waiting room, all the other woman there pregnant. I sat on the chair trying my best to hold the tears in but I couldn’t. I couldn’t control myself, it was all so upsetting “why me,why my baby” again got scanned and told even more worst news about my poor little baby, pushing the scanner on me so hard because I had no fluid. It was so hard for them to see the baby, my stomach was sore for days after each scan. I asked was there even 1% chance and I was told 0% chance of survival. We were brought into a tiny room then.
I thought they would tell me I would be started or they were going to give me a C section, never in my life did I think they would tell me I have to continue with the pregnancy until he dies inside me or make it to full term, or go to Liverpool to get induced. I just remember standing up and feeling my world turn upside down. How could this be happening to me? I stood up and my body just went into shock I couldn’t believe what I was hearing, I started to get sick and while I was getting sick I started to wee myself. How embarrassing it sounds, I just went into complete shock.
If I continued with the pregnancy I would have to keep going to Dublin weekly for scans, just to see if his heart stopped beating, so I was just waiting for my baby to die. Everyone knew I was pregnant. I hated bumping into anybody, people asking when am I due, I got to the stage were I wouldn’t leave the house.
We got the money together and decided we would go to Liverpool, I just couldn’t do it. I felt so depressed and sad, it was like I was grieving and my child wasn’t even dead yet.
Everything was booked. We had to go back to the rotunda for my final scan in Ireland, they were hoping his heart would of stopped beating so I wouldn’t have to travel and have him at home, how horrible to be even told that, but there he was his heart beating away not knowing what was ahead.
I was starting to have doubts, the midwife Jane was so, so lovely, she told me if I did countinue on more than likely his heart would stop beating, or I could give birth and his back was so bad it could break during birth, and his lungs would of been filled up with the fluid so it would be so hard for him to breathe. I felt so sick, I wanted to see my baby open his eyes I would of loved to spend an hour with him, a minute, any time, but for his sake I couldn’t. I couldn’t put him through that.
I started to have awful bad nightmares at night and they were making me more scared to travel, I was absolutely petrified. Just myself and my partner traveled to Liverpool, our family wanted to come to support us, to be there, but I was having none of it. I knew they couldn’t miss work, but I was feeling so punished, punished for nobody being able to meet our little boy. It was such a horrible feeling felt so lonely and low and so so scared.
We were blessed to have an aunty living in Liverpool, I say she was like an angel, she and her husband helped us so much. I couldn’t imagine having to go over and stay in a hotel. We got a late flight out on Monday night, Tuesday morning we went to the women’s hospital for my final scan, this scan was to make sure 100% that he was very sick and had no chance of life, and again we were giving even more bad news his brain was so badly damaged, along with having no kidneys or bladder and everything else that was wrong with his tiny little body. The lady that was scanning me went into detail with everything, it was all so much to take in, how could all this be happening to my little boy? I was induced and stayed the night. I would never forget the pain I was in Wednesday morning, and then my Mam and dad and sister walked into the room, and my partners Mam and sister walked in. It was so emotional, I couldn’t believe they came over. My partner had it set up. They were there in the room the whole time untill he was born, 10 hours later my little boy was born still at 27 weeks. I carried him for 4 weeks known he was going to die and it was hell.
He was so beautiful, so perfect on the outside, but yet so damaged on the inside. The hospital treated us with so much respect and dignity, they were amazing at such a hard and sad time.
We left on Saturday and travelled home by boat. We were told his tiny white coffin had to be in the boot of the car for the journey home, it was awful but I was just thankful I could get my baby home. I wouldn’t have been able to leave with out him. Leaving the hospital with empty arms and an aching heart was bad enough.
We laid him to rest the next day, it was Mother’s Day, my first ever Mother’s Day and I burried my precious son whom I would of took my last breath so he could take his first. Luke was 3 last week and I think about him every minute of the day. 💙
Repeal the 8th so women don’t have to travel, don’t have to bring there baby home on a boat in the middle of the night in a boot of a car. I always feel so much was taken away from me. I would of loved my other sisters and my family to meet my son but they couldn’t, my home country let me down, let my son down and took so much away from us.”
#repealthe8th
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TFMR Ireland
Leanbh mo Chroí0 -
I read it too and was so sad. How can anybody believe that this is right?0
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I completely understand how a mother in that situation would have hope the child would live even for a little while. How anyone could support forcing her to is completely beyond me0
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https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/mar/24/ann-enright-on-irelands-abortion-referendum
Article on The Guardian website today.
Some snippets from the article
What do you think of the author's words and thoughts on the topic?
Elsewhere in the article she suggested changing the word "pregnant" to "impregnated". It sounds more accurate in terms of this topic but overall, I can't imagine women who actually want to be pregnant going around saying "I'm impregnated" with joy and delight and when announcing the news! However, as we all know, every pregnancy is wholly different so in terms of "I've been impregnated and cannot have a baby" it sounds right to me.
***if you're going to continue to just keep banging on about murdering babies and other hysterical nonsense without stringing a coherent sentence together, you will be added to my ignore list, you'll have plenty of company there;)
This thread serves a useful purpose as long as people are posting their own opinions and trying to work through their own arguments in response to the arguments of others.
If it degenerates in to posting up excerpts from opinion pieces that you feel make the point better than you could yourself it's going to start looking like the emails you get from your aging aunt.
In fact if that's all you're looking for you may as well just go to the #repealthe8th #savethe8th twitter feeds.
If you want I could just start posting articles from #savethe8th right now. I could probably write a Casper/Phantomjs script to automate it.
There's also a load of really good stuff in the Irish Catholic. Are you ready?0 -
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charlietheminxx wrote: »I read it too and was so sad. How can anybody believe that this is right?
I can't believe anyone would vote no after reading this. Listen I know people don't agree with abortion that's fine don't agree with it but by voting no you're forcing these women to continue to travel when there is an alternative for them. Why deny them this right because a you believe women (a very small minority btw) have abortions for spurious reasons.
I just don't get it.0 -
Horrifically sad. What is already a beyond sad circumstance becomes a nightmare.
When you should be just grieving, that you have to think of all that other logistical stuff.
Sounds like so sensitively handled by all the medical staff - and most importantly not pressured either way - it was her own choice to make if she wished to carry to full term or not. And plenty of scans along the journey for her to make that choice.
But she still had to fekn travel *angry face*
Why oh why Ireland why0 -
I’ve noticed the PLC seem to have dropped the ‘women being pressured by medical staff into having abortions’ bullsh!t. Probably a wise move on their part when you see stories like the above.0
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Sounds like so sensitively handled by all the medical staff - and most importantly not pressured either way - it was her own choice to make if she wished to carry to full term or not. And plenty of scans along the journey for her to make that choice.
The part about the lady refunding her the scan fee was like a smack in the heart for me. Such a kind thing to do but for such a sad reason. I can only imagine her pain.
I know of a couple (as in a man and wife, not a couple of people it happened to) who experienced something similar. It's not just one or two sad cases that unfortunately happen, it's happening to a number of families, and their extended family and friends hurt with them. One family is one too many to be honest.0 -
The thing that comes through most strongly in that account is that this woman feels that she was carrying a child in her womb, her child, another human being. It is from that, ultimately, that her distress arose. She did not feel that hers was principally a medical problem and certainly not one requiring the removal of a clump of cells. She felt all the anguish of a mother whose child had a life threatening condition.broken after reading this.
”In 2015 I was 21, and beaming with excitement that I was pregnant with our first child, same time as my sister too.
.......
We laid him to rest the next day, it was Mother’s Day, my first ever Mother’s Day and I burried my precious son whom I would of took my last breath so he could take his first. Luke was 3 last week and I think about him every minute of the day. ��
Repeal the 8th so women don’t have to travel, don’t have to bring there baby home on a boat in the middle of the night in a boot of a car. I always feel so much was taken away from me. I would of loved my other sisters and my family to meet my son but they couldn’t, my home country let me down, let my son down and took so much away from us.”
#repealthe8th
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TFMR Ireland
Leanbh mo Chroí
There is an argument to be had over whether an exception should be made in law for cases like these, cases abortion advocates like to label as fatal fetal abnormality. The reason we have heard so little over the years about these cases and the reason they haven't been the focus of a major political and media campaign is that they are well defined and can't be used as wedge cases to open the flood gates to abortion on demand/request. Unlike rape for example.
Which is a pity.0 -
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The outcome is the same. Doctors can’t act as their hands are tied by the eighth.
No family should have to go through this. She could have been saved all this trauma had she had access here to the Proper medical care earlier.0 -
Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.The outcome is the same. Doctors can’t act as their hands are tied by the eighth.
No family should have to go through this. She could have been saved all this trauma had she had access here to the Proper medical care earlier.
This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.
Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.0 -
broken after reading this.
Repeal the 8th so women don’t have to travel, don’t have to bring there baby home on a boat in the middle of the night in a boot of a car. I always feel so much was taken away from me. I would of loved my other sisters and my family to meet my son but they couldn’t, my home country let me down, let my son down and took so much away from us.”
#repealthe8th
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TFMR Ireland
Leanbh mo Chroí
That would break your heart. What an awful unnecessary ordeal forced upon that woman and her family. You'd wonder how many women have travelled to the UK under those same circumstances?
When she described the man hugging her outside the hospital, I actually felt some hope, hope that all is not lost and people can still show compassion and hopefully that will come through in May.
It's thinking of women walking around pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant and people asking them about their pregnancy that always gets to me. Imagine how awful that is.0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.
This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.
Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.
Used as a pawn??
Want to talk about pawns? Pro life campaign rolling out people who claim to have been aborted and survived in buckets left to die but survived? Also rolling out effectively rape babies ‘I would be dead if my mother aborted me’ etc for want of a better term, all the worst kind of extremes and rarities in order to emotionally manipulate the whole debate!
That’s using people and extremes as pawns.
FFA happens EVERY DAY. to dismiss any woman’s testimony and strength in sharing her story is really disrespectful and diminishes your point.0 -
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Why oh why Ireland why
If pro-lifers have a vote to repeal the 8th on their Earth-life score-sheet, they are (mostly) so afraid of the incandescent rage of almighty God who will without a shadow of a doubt (in their strange belief system) slam the gates of heaven in their face and cast them into eternal damnation.
I am being serious.
They believe these cases of intense suffering above are God’s will and thus they don’t rest on a pro-lifers conscience (in defending- retain the 8th). They see themselves as the good guys here :rolleyes:
Pure evil madness…0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.
This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.
Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.
What is irrelevant in the woman's story? She was told her baby would not live and if born would be in agony. To compound this terrible news she couldn't receive the required medical services here in Ireland and had to travel to England to receive it because of the 8th.
Is she just a pawn because the story doesn't suit your agenda, because your post certainly reads this way and shows the willful disregard for women that the prolife side have, other then to be incubators.0 -
Go through it.Used as a pawn??
Want to talk about pawns? Pro life campaign rolling out people who claim to have been aborted and survived in buckets left to die but survived? Also rolling out effectively rape babies ‘I would be dead if my mother aborted me’ etc for want of a better term, all the worst kind of extremes and rarities in order to emotionally manipulate the whole debate!
That’s using people and extremes as pawns.
FFA happens EVERY DAY. to dismiss any woman’s testimony and strength in sharing her story is really disrespectful and diminishes your point.
At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.0 -
MmKaaay.Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »If pro-lifers have a vote to repeal the 8th on their Earth-life score-sheet, they are (mostly) so afraid of the incandescent rage of almighty God who will without a shadow of a doubt (in their strange belief system) slam the gates of heaven in their face and cast them into eternal damnation.
I am being serious.
They believe these cases of intense suffering above are God’s will and thus they don’t rest on a pro-lifers conscience (in defending- retain the 8th). They see themselves as the good guys here :rolleyes:
Pure evil madness…0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.
This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.
Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.
You should head over the story again, particularly the last part.
The one part that actually gave her some comfort was that her family was beside her. She was lucky, how many people in her situation have this chance?
She is not being used as a pawn, she clearly states her wish at the end of the story, she does not want any other woman to go through what she had to as regards the travel. Don't try to assume you know more about the feelings then she does.0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Go through it.
At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.
Just wow. Show your hand why don’t you.
I see the plc being completely blind to the irony and hypocrisy of statements like ‘they’re trying to dehumanise the baby’ yet support forcing women to go through this is utterly inhuman.0 -
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bertieinexile wrote: »Go through it.
At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.
Are you trying to tell me that you think the posters here like david75 only empathise with the travelling part. Are you for real??
It's the saddest story i cannot imagine what she was feeling and is feeling now. And then having to travel and bringing the coffin with remains back in the car boot being part of her and Luke's story. Awful. It's all awful.
Can we make that story the teensiest easier by stop being hypocrites and sending our women and health issues abroad. I think it's the empathetic thing to do.
Repeal the 8th.
Edit. I'm now done engaging with you as others are too. I find your attitude to women and posters insufferable. Good bye and good luck to you.0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Go through it.
At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.
You can't have read it properly.
Did you see where she said she assumed she would be offered the choice of induction at the hospital where she was being looked after, and was devastated when told that she couldnt?
I get the impression you dismiss that as unimportant, but it is crucial. For lots of reasons, I don't even know where to start, if you really can't see how many awful things there are there.0 -
It’s the disingenuous rearranging of the facts and ignoring others all while trying to undermine someone else’s empathy in order to appear morally superior that I find most offputyibg about the plc and Bertie’s attitudes in this instance.
It’s baffling and bizarre.0 -
Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »They believe these cases of intense suffering above are God’s will and thus they don’t rest on a pro-lifers conscience (in defending- retain the 8th). They see themselves as the good guys here :rolleyes:
Pure evil madness…
This has been the problem with these god botherers In Ireland since independence.
No contraception because it's against gods law. HIV isn't a problem because only gays and drug addicts or those who have loose morals and have premarital sex are at risk and they aren't gods chosen people.
No divorce because it's against gods law. Better to stay in an unhappy or abusive relationship because you made a poor decision.
No marriage equality because it's against gods law. What if they want to adopt the bullying the children will suffer, well thats due to the bigitory the no side propagate.
No abortion because it's against gods law. Better to die having a child that can go on to produce more Christians/Jews/Muslims.
Well your foetus isn't viable well don't worry you'll be in gods graces again soon enough and can try again.
Raped by a stranger or family member well you were obviously asking for it and the fetus is gods judgement/chance for you to repent.0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Thanks for that. It was very informative.
I guess the second last paragraph should be
"In Ireland in inevitable abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk."
Yes, of course. Typo due typing on phone and not rereading -I’ve edited the original post. Thank you.So in this case we're describing a woman who is under medical supervision and for whom the best practice under the 8th amendment would be to intervene to save her life if that became necessary.
Not quite. We’re describing a case where ‘best practice’ cannot be afforded to a woman because of the 8th.
The presence or absence of the 8th amendment does not change what is best practice in medical care.Of course there is also the major issue of how upsetting and difficult it is for the woman to have to wait in those circumstances. There is no doubt about that but is it enough to merit introducing abortion on demand/ unrestricted access to abortion/ abortion on request/ whatever/ up to twelve weeks and in practice no actual limit?
Thanks again for the informative post.
Upsetting, and difficult, and risky.
Yes. If Irish women having abortions in Ireland that they would have had elsewhere anyway is the ‘price to pay’ so that we can stop unnecessarily putting women’s and children’s lives at risk, then I can fully support that.0 -
bertieinexile wrote: »Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.
This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.
Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.
Read back over her story again, this time without your blinkers and try to see at which point this woman’s awful situation could have been (or was) improved, even if only by a tiny amount.
The kind hearted man who hugged her.
The sonographer who wouldn’t take her money.
Some of her family members being with her while she waited to deliver.
Not having to travel to a foreign country to deliver her child, and not having to bring his remains back in the boot of her car.0 -
I had a client recently state, during a reasonable adult conversation that repeal the 8th would "open the flood gates".
I couldn't help it I said "are you serious"? I tell you what, you want to control my eggs (long gone by the way) so let me control your sperm. He laughed out loud and could see my point - I said its also about a level playing field. Females don't get pregnant on their own, it takes two so if you want to control my reproductive "bits", lets put it in the Constitution that we'll control your "bits".
I think he's still laughing but I got my point across. Its about control, not compassion. The Catholic Church is all about control, not compassion.0 -
David Quinn showing his and the pro life campaigns true colours
Unbelievable. Literally
https://twitter.com/rmcg2799/status/977859809222504448?s=210 -
I was just reading this article - https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/abortion-legislation-to-include-consideration-period-of-up-to-72-hours-36678453.html - and this jumped out at meMeanwhile, Irish Catholic bishops said they will "pray earnestly that Ireland will choose life".
Who has any respect for what Irish Catholic bishops think or pray for anymore?0 -
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I was just reading this article - https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/abortion-legislation-to-include-consideration-period-of-up-to-72-hours-36678453.html - and this jumped out at me
Who has any respect for what Irish Catholic bishops think or pray for anymore?
You’d be surprised. Then shocked. Then depressed.0
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