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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Simon Coveney was my favorite politician in the government, however his change of stance yesterday disgusts me after he previously admitted that the new abortion proposals and 12 week limit is flawed and unworkable and ultimately wrong. Shame on you Mr Coveney however he was probably shamed and bullied into changing his stance like many others my The unethical campaigns of the pro abortion contingent

    For some reason, I find it hard to believe that a politician who has said from the outset he's calling for a Yes vote was your favourite government politician.

    What's changed is his stance on the post-referendum legislation. And from what I can see he did that after talking to doctors. God forbid politicians mind change their minds when they hear facts from qualified people. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Shame on you Mr Coveney however he was probably shamed and bullied into changing his stance like many others my The unethical campaigns of the pro abortion contingent

    Have to laugh at this.
    Shaming and bullying are the hallmarks of the anti-choice movement , not the repeal movement.


  • Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    Simon Coveney was my favorite politician in the government, however his change of stance yesterday disgusts me after he previously admitted that the new abortion proposals and 12 week limit is flawed and unworkable and ultimately wrong. Shame on you Mr Coveney however he was probably shamed and bullied into changing his stance like many others my The unethical campaigns of the pro abortion contingent


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Simon Coveney was my favorite politician in the government, however his change of stance yesterday disgusts me after he previously admitted that the new abortion proposals and 12 week limit is flawed and unworkable and ultimately wrong. Shame on you Mr Coveney however he was probably shamed and bullied into changing his stance like many others my The unethical campaigns of the pro abortion contingent

    What unethical campaigns?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Simon Coveney was my favorite politician in the government, however his change of stance yesterday disgusts me after he previously admitted that the new abortion proposals and 12 week limit is flawed and unworkable and ultimately wrong. Shame on you Mr Coveney however he was probably shamed and bullied into changing his stance like many others my The unethical campaigns of the pro abortion contingent

    Yep probably shamed and bullied but openly admits in an article that he changed his mind willingly after working with doctors on the issue.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Katie sidestepping pat at every turn, she claims to be speaking for all the unborn, and making her view the only one available for women.


  • Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well

    Oh yes?
    How many 10 week old foetus can survive outside the womb?
    Have you actually seen a real life 10 week old foetus?

    How many abortions has your doctor carried out?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well

    well at least now you are calling it a foetus. all you need to do is drop the unnecessary scare quotes. some progress at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well
    It’s living tissue, but I don’t believe that it is ‘alive’. It doesn’t have a functioning brain. Aborting it is not murder, and stating so is opinion, not fact.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Katie insisting rape victims to carry to term with her help.
    Pat can't get a straight answer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well

    More inane claptrap.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well

    That's your choice. You vote exactly how you feel, as is your entitlement. It's your vote, no one else's. You had your mind made up on the matter long before speaking to your doctor, but as they've confirmed things for you, does not mean it should be forced on any one else.

    I would rather be a bit more open to objective information. A doctor firmly putting themselves on one side or the other is not objective and so you take the information they provide with that disclaimer. Finding out what an abortion entails, what it means for the fetus and then thinking of the woman and what it means for her is my approach. If it is woman vs fetus how can I decide who gets priority? I also take on board what professionals are saying, in instances where their medical hands are tied because of the current law. Therefore, pro choice is the only option for me. Let the woman decide what is best for her body and her situation and giving her the freedom to avail of health treatment in her own country, rather than sending her abroad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Well over ninety percent of abortions in england are carried out under the risk of injury to the mental health of the woman.

    That is a bare-faced lie.

    To explain:

    The law in the UK does not technically allow abortion on demand, but it allows doctors to perform an abortion when there is a: Risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

    Since the stats show that there is always more risk to the woman's health in delivering a baby at full term than in an early abortion, this legalised abortion on demand in the UK.

    But Bertie's statement that 90% are for mental health reasons is a lie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well

    I, too, am listening to my own doctor. When I was most recently at her clinic (to talk about switching to a different contraceptive pill, like the harlot that I am!) it came up in conversation.
    She is in full support of repeal having dealt with many, many women over the course of her career whose lives and health have been changed forever because of the limitations of the 8th.
    She's part of her local repeal campaign and has always been pro-choice in that she advised patients to travel to the UK where necessary, supporting them as much as she could with what little opportunity she had.

    I don't think I could be treated by a doctor who saw 10 week old tissue as more important than me. Treating me should be their priority. I'm the patient.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Let’s make it crystal clear

    You're starting to sound like a politician who thinks they are in trouble.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Well I’ve listened to my local doctor, a pro life view she holds and understandably so after what she showed and informed me bout abortion . Let’s make it crystal clear , a 10 week old “fetus” is very much alive and aborting that child is murder and nothing short of it
    Well

    Any sentence that starts off with "lets make it crystal clear" is bound to be a lie.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Or just something you wanna believe is a lie?

    *should have added a tongue in cheek smiley


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    A question because I've never been clear on this and even from Google I can't get an answer.

    Now yes a heartbeat can be detected from as early as 6 weeks. A cell is alive but technically it is not a baby because obviously you need more than a slight heartbeat to live.

    At what stage does a fetus become a baby? I don't mean in terms of personal opinions BTW. Some will say straight away and some say at about 20 weeks for example.

    I'm asking medically from a pro choice (as pro life will say earlier), when does life begin?

    I had this discussion with a mate (pro life) of mine and they tried to make me feel guilty for even asking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Or just something you wanna believe is a lie?

    if people want to be self-deluded that is up to them. But that post definitely contains a lie.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭seenitall


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Or just something you wanna believe is a lie?

    Good morning, fellow Repealer!! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Or just something you wanna believe is a lie?

    Probably better in normal discourse to say

    "lets make my opinion.... crystal clear"


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mr.H wrote: »
    A question because I've never been clear on this and even from Google I can't get an answer.

    Now yes a heartbeat can be detected from as early as 6 weeks. A cell is alive but technically it is not a baby because obviously you need more than a slight heartbeat to live.

    At what stage does a fetus become a baby? I don't mean in terms of personal opinions BTW. Some will say straight away and some say at about 20 weeks for example.

    I'm asking medically from a pro choice (as pro life will say earlier), when does life begin?

    I had this discussion with a mate (pro life) of mine and they tried to make me feel guilty for even asking.

    it becomes a baby the moment it is born.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Mr.H wrote: »
    A question because I've never been clear on this and even from Google I can't get an answer.

    Now yes a heartbeat can be detected from as early as 6 weeks. A cell is alive but technically it is not a baby because obviously you need more than a slight heartbeat to live.

    At what stage does a fetus become a baby? I don't mean in terms of personal opinions BTW. Some will say straight away and some say at about 20 weeks for example.

    I'm asking medically from a pro choice (as pro life will say earlier), when does life begin?

    I had this discussion with a mate (pro life) of mine and they tried to make me feel guilty for even asking.

    Are you are asking when does a fetus become viable to live outside the womb of its own accord?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    it becomes a baby the moment it is born.


    Technically no. It can survive well before that


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Mr.H wrote: »
    At what stage does a fetus become a baby? I don't mean in terms of personal opinions BTW. Some will say straight away and some say at about 20 weeks for example. I'm asking medically from a pro choice (as pro life will say earlier), when does life begin?

    I had this discussion with a mate (pro life) of mine and they tried to make me feel guilty for even asking.

    Then get better friends. If you can not talk openly with your friends, they do not deserve to be called friend.

    However I have dealt with your question in one form or another many times over the past months. Perhaps you could read this post here and then come back if there are any conversation points you want to take up from it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Technically no. It can survive well before that

    you asked when does a foetus become a baby. that is the question i answered. I made no mention of viability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Mr.H wrote: »
    A question because I've never been clear on this and even from Google I can't get an answer.

    Now yes a heartbeat can be detected from as early as 6 weeks. A cell is alive but technically it is not a baby because obviously you need more than a slight heartbeat to live.

    At what stage does a fetus become a baby? I don't mean in terms of personal opinions BTW. Some will say straight away and some say at about 20 weeks for example.

    I'm asking medically from a pro choice (as pro life will say earlier), when does life begin?

    I had this discussion with a mate (pro life) of mine and they tried to make me feel guilty for even asking.


    By every definition (other than opinion), a foetus becomes a baby when it's born. That is the medical, scientific, and legal definition.

    With that in mind, I would consider the point of viability (when it can be born and survive) to be my biggest ethical cut off point for abortion. A foetus with FFA doesn't really reach the point of viability which is why I would support FFA until late stage, though this rarely happens. Of course, there are a few exceptions where a foetus is born extremely early and with massive medical care can survive, or cases where FFA can survive and recover but I would consider them too much of an abnormality to count.

    The heart beat you hear at 6 weeks is a pacemaker cell


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Oldtree wrote:
    Are you are asking when does a fetus become viable to live outside the womb of its own accord?


    Yes.

    For example my dad was born two months pre mature and that was 60 years ago.

    I know loads who were born a month pre mature.

    So I guess my question is how pre mature can someone be born and survive? I guess that would be the 'point life begins'?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Technically no. It can survive well before that

    That is disingenuous and word play with the word born! Have you not heard of a cesarean delivery.

    The proposed legislation will include the following which may help to answer your question:
    In other cases where there is a risk to the life, or of serious harm to the health of a woman, it is understood the bill would explicitly make terminations unlawful where the pregnancy is viable.

    Doctors will on a case by case basis decide on the viability of the fetus.

    Please do not say that you do not trust doctors to make an appropriate decision.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0326/950089-eighth-amendment-cabinet/


This discussion has been closed.
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