The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

It wasnt me123

david75 wrote: »

Pro Life leaflet being distributed in Dublin at the minute And yep it’s full on crazy

If this is the sort of nonsense the Save the 8th have to rely on, pro choice have nothing to worry about.

Pity the Save the 8th don't have the same enthusiasm for the children once they are born - loads of children in foster care, for a whole load of reasons, but clearly not being able to be minded by their parents.

david75

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I have lots of compassion. I agree that all forms of therapeutic abortions should be available to women.

On what grounds do I like compassion exactly?



So, Erica, I take it then that you would agree with a woman having her baby's life ended at ANY stage of her pregnancy, even nine months?? Really?? Don't you think that's barbaric?

If your answer is 'No, I would not agree with abortion at that stage unless medically necessary' then can I ask you, what right do you have to stick your nose into other women's pregnancies?

You support retaining the 8th. A piece of legislation that had us lock up a 14 year old and force her to give birth. And kept a brain dead woman alive simply because she had a 15 week old foetus inside her, that wasn’t going to live either.

There is no compassion in the eighth nor anyone who supports retaining it.

Demonique

Graces7 wrote: »

The woman can think and understand. The unborn baby (and it is human at every stage)is totally vulnerable and innocent. To pay with its life?

Just wondering;what about the fathers?

The father may supply 50% of the genetic material but he's not the one who could go through a potentially life threatening pregnancy, or could have his health adversely affected, he certainly doesn't risk vaginal tearing during birth nor does he risk post natal depression.

kylith

Graces7 wrote: »

The woman can think and understand. The unborn baby (and it is human at every stage)is totally vulnerable and innocent. To pay with its life?

Just wondering;what about the fathers?

Should a man be able to force a woman to remain pregnant? Someone has to have the deciding vote and it must be the person who is most affected; the person who carries the pregnancy. The father can have an equal say when the technology exists to allow the foetus to be transplanted into his body, or an external womb.

Graces7

david75 wrote: »

You support retaining the 8th. A piece of legislation that had us lock up a 14 year old and force her to give birth. And kept a brain dead woman alive simply because she had a 15 week old foetus inside her, that wasn’t going to live either.

There is no compassion in the eighth nor anyone who supports retaining it.

These extremes are not what this is really about. And does nothing for your arguments.

Outlaw Pete

retro:electro wrote: »

But what if the women carrying that fetus doesn’t see it as a human being?

It doesn't matter what she sees it as. It's a human being no matter what anyone thinks.

You might as well be asking me what if someone thinks a cat is a mouse.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

The woman can think and understand. The unborn baby (and it is human at every stage)is totally vulnerable and innocent. To pay with its life?

Just wondering;what about the fathers?

And what, precisely, are you wondering about the fathers? Let's get specific here. Cut out the shorthand and get to basics.

You are aware that fathers have accompanied their wives/partners to the UK for abortions, no doubt.

What if the father is a rapist? You still haven't addressed this from the first thread.

Many abortions are for very sound reasons beyond your perception that the pregnancy is an inconvenience to the mother.

Do you honestly think any mother doesn't think long and hard before going the route of an abortion?

The lack of compassion towards women reminds me of the attitude of many nuns towards all pregnant women decades ago.


I think this thread is beyond useless at this stage. The same old platitudes and a reluctance to respond to simple questions.

Nobody, on either side of the debate, is going to change their minds based on this 'discussion' and I pity any "Don't know" looking for guidance,

Graces7

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

If this is the sort of nonsense the Save the 8th have to rely on, pro choice have nothing to worry about.

Pity the Save the 8th don't have the same enthusiasm for the children once they are born - loads of children in foster care, for a whole load of reasons, but clearly not being able to be minded by their parents.

That as also dealing with child abuse is provided for by the state.

david75

Graces7 wrote: »

These extremes are not what this is really about. And does nothing for your arguments.

They aren’t extremes. they are things that have actually happened here in this state!
But rich saying extremes when you guys keep screaming abortion on demand up to birth! And nobody else is saying that. It isn’t even on the table or in the legislation.

Graces7

erica74 wrote: »

The woman can think and understand, exactly. So if the woman can think and understand, she is capable of making her own decisions without you imposing your beliefs on her.

What about the fathers? Is that a statement or a question? What are you trying to ask?

Genuine question - why do you only care about the unborn babies? And now the fathers? What about the women?
Do you ever give us some consideration?

This IS about babies above all . Putting the weakest and most needy and most vulnerable humans first.

And trusting that adult women will do the same.

But above all, the babies.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

This IS about babies above all . Putting the weakest and most needy and most vulnerable humans first.

And trusting that adult women will do the same.

But above all, the babies.

And the answers to the basic questions asked of you are.....what?

erica74

Graces7 wrote: »

This IS about babies above all . Putting the weakest and most needy and most vulnerable humans first.

And trusting that adult women will do the same.

But above all, the babies.

Are you interested in having a discussion or just cherry picking what suits you?
You said "what about the fathers", what about them? What are you asking?

Outlaw Pete

Madscientist30 wrote: »

And how much speaking out and campaigning have you personally done against child abuse of born children? Where are the marches for that, if the pro-lifers are against child abuse in all its forms? Once the baby is born pro-lifers are nowhere to be found. It's actually kind of sick.

Oh here come the idiotic arguments.

This debate is about abortion. Why do prochoicers always try and deflect away from the actual debate by trying to discredit those they are debating with. Even if I was a serial killer, it still wouldn't strengthen your position on abortion to point that out. Either you are right or you are wrong. What prolifers do or don't do for born children has no impact on that.


As it happens I do quite a bit for born children though, particular those with disabilities.

volchitsa

Graces7 wrote: »

These extremes are not what this is really about. And does nothing for your arguments.

Seeing as the current situation is that the vast majority of Irish women who want abortions can legally have one, it absolutely is about those "extremes", aka real cases, because they are the people who are actually affected by the 8th. The others are only put to a bit more expense and stress.

So thousands of women can have abortions, but you refuse to consider the few tragic cases because you fear that those thousands of women who are already having abortions might continue to have abortions.

They are continuing anyway, but that's ok by you. For some reason.
And if their number increases, that's still ok too, you have no upper limit on that.

You don't see a problem in that logic?

erica74

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

So, Erica, I take it then that you would agree with a woman having her baby's life ended at ANY stage of her pregnancy, even nine months?? Really?? Don't you think that's barbaric?

If your answer is 'No, I would not agree with abortion at that stage unless medically necessary' then can I ask you, what right do you have to stick your nose into other women's pregnancies?

So I can't answer yes or no because you have it all planned out for me?!
I think every woman should have the option to have an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy. However, the facts are that 92% of abortions carried out in the UK are done before 13 weeks and included in those statistics are Irish women.
The proposed legislation will be to allow abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason (that's my understanding of it anyway) and after that, abortion only on specific medical grounds (again, that's my understanding of it).
We should be discussing what is actually going to happen here, not pulling extreme cases that rarely come about into the discussion.

It's also worth noting that the cost of an abortion goes up in line with how far along the pregnancy is so that is another reason for women to have an abortion as early as possible in their pregnancy.

Why do you think your beliefs are more important than the rights of a woman over her own body?

Annasopra

volchitsa wrote: »

Seeing as the current situation is that the vast majority of Irish women who want abortions can legally have one.

This is questionable given that abortion pills are illegal but imported here in large quantities

eviltwin

Any woman who wants to end her pregnancy at a late stage doesn't need an abortion, she just needs labour to be induced, this is what would have to happen anyway.

I don't know why the "aborting babies just before birth" is always raised as it:

1. Doesn't need to happen
2. Isn't relevant to the proposed Irish legislation

I think it's pure desperation to try and make women who seek abortions to be on a par with Myra Hindley.

Outlaw Pete

DubInMeath wrote: »

Maybe if you re post your entire piece and explain what you mean by the items highlighted not being the reason western women have abortions?

It doesn't need further explanation. Or at least it shouldn't.

Around 1% of abortions in the UK are performed to save the life of the mother.
Around 2% of abortions in the UK are performed because of FFAs.

But yet these reasons for why a small number of women have abortions each year has been slyly used to manipulate Irish society into making abortion available to pregnant women even when there isn't a ffa to deal with nor indeed their life in danger should they continue with the pregnany. Why hasn't the reasoning behind why 90%+ women have abortions each year dominated these discussions? Well, we know the answer to that.

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Oh here come the idiotic arguments.

This debate is about abortion. Why do prochoicers always try and deflect away from the actual debate by trying to discredit those they are debating with. Even if I was a serial killer, it still wouldn't strengthen your position on abortion to point that out. Either you are right or you are wrong. What prolifers do or don't do for born children has no impact on that.


As it happens I do quite a bit for born children though, particular those with disabilities.

I'm not trying to portray you as anything and I don't think anyone else is but you have yet to clarify your first post as to why women are using medical issues as a smoke screen for having abortions. So to claim that anyone disagreeing with your opinion are deflecting, while claiming thayips her posters want to have abortions at nine months iis quite disingenuous and rude.

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

It doesn't need further explanation. Or at least it shouldn't.

Around 1% of abortions in the UK are performed to save the life of the mother.
Around 2% of abortions in the UK are performed because of FFAs.

But yet these reasons for why a small number of women have abortions each year has been slyly used to manipulate Irish society into making abortion available to pregnant women even when there isn't a ffa to deal with nor their life in danger. Why hasn't the reasoning behind why 90+ women have abortions dominating the discussion? Well, we know the answer to that.

So your fine with people who were raped etc being forced to carry to term. Thanks for clarifying.

david75

DubInMeath wrote: »

So your fine with people who were raped etc being forced to carry to term. Thanks for clarifying.

Also jail terms involved? A woman faces 14 years in prison for taking an abortion pill.

A rapist faces only 5-7 years in prison for rape.



But hey! Compassion!!

erica74

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

It doesn't need further explanation. Or at least it shouldn't.

Around 1% of abortions in the UK are performed to save the life of the mother.
Around 2% of abortions in the UK are performed because of FFAs.

But yet these reasons for why a small number of women have abortions each year has been slyly used to manipulate Irish society into making abortion available to pregnant women even when there isn't a ffa to deal with nor indeed their life in danger should they continue with the pregnany. Why hasn't the reasoning behind why 90+ women have abortions each year dominated these discussions? Well, we know the answer to that.

I don't understand this tactic of making out the pro choice side are hiding behind the stats for abortions carried out to save the life of a mother or FFA etc.
The only information that matters is that women have abortions because they no longer want to be pregnant, their individual personal reasons for having an abortion is their own business.

erica74

erica74 wrote: »

I don't understand this tactic of making out the pro choice side are hiding behind the stats for abortions carried out to save the life of a mother or FFA etc.
The only information that matters is that women have abortions because they no longer want to be pregnant, their individual personal reasons for having an abortion is their own business.

Because they have partially lost their battle in terms of the life of the mother and FFA, the repeal will be enough for doctors to actually carry out these required surgeries without needing a member of their legal team trying to give input over the wishes of the patient or their partner, while someone is bleeding out on a operating table. The rest of the stuff they tot out is just a scare tatic to avoid losing their war for the unborn as they see it.
Also for some it's just galling that a woman would have their own opinion and choices to act on, be that to have a baby or not.

david75

Some shocking figures

https://twitter.com/daithigor/status/975339884247486465?s=21

Outlaw Pete

kylith wrote: »

It can’t ‘cling’ to anything. It doesn’t even have basic sentience at 12 weeks.

Sentience is a philosophical argument. That's why ambulance personal don't look for it at the scene of an accident. If they want to see if someone is still alive, they look for a heartbeat and if it's a woman, and she's 12 weeks pregnant, they'll declare that she hasn't lost her baby either once they detect it's heartbeat. Sentience is a red herring.

Do you know what it feels like to find out that if you’re a few weeks pregnant and are diagnosed with cancer you will receive no treatment until it’s a direct threat to your life?

I agree with all therapeutic abortions.

For example, while I'd admire the following woman, and think she's a fcking inspiration, I think she would have been justified in having an abortion.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/ct-carrie-deklyen-baby-dies-20170921-story.html

That is the 8th amendment.

Then why have prochoicers not just campaigned for abortion on those grounds then? The health of women? FFAs? Why has that not been their priority? For years the prochoice movement could have shelved their juvenile 'My Body, My Choice' arguments and done their best to try and get abortion made legal on health grounds but they never really did that. If they were sincere about that which they never shut up about, they would have.

Cally Caleigh

erica74 wrote: »

I don't understand this tactic of making out the pro choice side are hiding behind the stats for abortions carried out to save the life of a mother or FFA etc.
The only information that matters is that women have abortions because they no longer want to be pregnant, their individual personal reasons for having an abortion is their own business.

Up to 12 weeks though right?
I mean, what if the woman (for her own personal reasons) no longer wants to be pregnant at 37 or 38 weeks?
I'm asking sincerely by the way, not attempting to provoke you in any way.

January

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Up to 12 weeks though right?
I mean, what if the woman (for her own personal reasons) no longer wants to be pregnant at 37 or 38 weeks?
I'm asking sincerely by the way, not attempting to provoke you in any way.

Then she's either induced or a cesarean is performed. That's the only thing that can happen at that stage. A live baby will be born.

erica74

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Up to 12 weeks though right?
I mean, what if the woman (for her own personal reasons) no longer wants to be pregnant at 37 or 38 weeks?
I'm asking sincerely by the way, not attempting to provoke you in any way.

I've already answered this question

I think every woman should have the option to have an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy. However, the facts are that 92% of abortions carried out in the UK are done before 13 weeks and included in those statistics are Irish women.
The proposed legislation will be to allow abortion up to 12 weeks for any reason (that's my understanding of it anyway) and after that, abortion only on specific medical grounds (again, that's my understanding of it).
We should be discussing what is actually going to happen here, not pulling extreme cases that rarely come about into the discussion.

It's also worth noting that the cost of an abortion goes up in line with how far along the pregnancy is so that is another reason for women to have an abortion as early as possible in their pregnancy.

Martina1991

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Up to 12 weeks though right?
I mean, what if the woman (for her own personal reasons) no longer wants to be pregnant at 37 or 38 weeks?
I'm asking sincerely by the way, not attempting to provoke you in any way.

Then she is induced and gives birth. The child is not killed.

Cally Caleigh

I think every woman should have the option to have an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy.

erica74 -this is your own opinion or quoted from someone else, or a website?