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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #2072
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Spoke to a group of fellow young people today(18-22), most hold pro life views, but not all, but those with pro life views all said that same thing, that they felt pressurised by society to keep quiet on their views and that they felt they’d be labeled inaccurate derogatory names such as women haters and dinosaurs ( completely and utterly untrue) if they let their view known, it seems standing up for the unborn is seen as uncool to the elites and biased media up in Dublin

    I find it hard to believe that any of your 'fellow young people' have trouble voicing their own opinions!!
    I have yet to meet a person of 18-22, or younger that didn't have very vocal opinions, and believed themselves to be right.


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    #2073
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Spoke to a group of fellow young people today(18-22), most hold pro life views, but not all, but those with pro life views all said that same thing, that they felt pressurised by society to keep quiet on their views and that they felt they’d be labeled inaccurate derogatory names such as women haters and dinosaurs ( completely and utterly untrue) if they let their view known, it seems standing up for the unborn is seen as uncool to the elites and biased media up in Dublin


    Is anyone else getting a curious case of deja-vu? Where have we heard this spiel before?


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    #2074
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    Aisha Chithira case
    ProfessorPlum wrote:
    Although you’ve already heard how a woman died after complications after an abortion abroad. There were a number of factors which made her situation less optimal than it would have been had she been able to have her procedure at home.
    DubInMeath wrote:
    "Do you have an example of womens lives being endangered by the actual travelling to england (and back) for an abortion?"
    You posted an example earlier where this was the exact case. The woman died.
    volchitsa wrote:
    Yes, her medical condition and the delay caused by travelling meant it was a medically complex procedure which would have required her medical notes. Irish women, because of the quasi-clandestine nature of abortion in Ireland generally don't manage to bring their medical notes. Bit harsh to then assume they are to blame when a complication isn't properly dealt with - or maybe they should just refuse all Irish women, in case one of them has an issue they are unaware of?

    Let me try and sum this up. In relation to this case is there anyone willing to say that the Marie Stopes clinic in Ealing are not pricipally responsible for the death of this woman.
    I think there actually are people on here who believe that but I would like to hear them say it.

    The reason being, this isn't a dorm room argument. There is a vote coming up and if you believe Marie Stopes are not principally to blame in this
    case you are so far removed from what the general public believe that I think you have a problem on your hands.


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    #2075
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    BabysCoffee wrote: »
    BertieInExile wrote:
    Do you have an example of womens lives being endangered by the actual travelling to england (and back) for an abortion?
    http://www.thejournal.ie/fergal-malone-abortion-flight-death-3642355-Oct2017/
    The master of the Rotunda Hospital Dublin, Prof Fergal Malone...said: “We are aware of at least one of our patients from Ireland who died following a complication from a surgical termination of pregnancy while travelling between Ireland and a centre abroad.”
    The vagueness of this description is highlighted by the fact the IT first covered it as the person flying and then decided to change it to travelling.
    Surely ears cocked up in the IT offices when they heard this one. You have to believe if there was anything there we'd have got at least an anonymized retelling based on third party accounts.
    Finally the "at least" bit is just bizarre. In what state of existence was the second person Prof Malone may or may not be aware of?

    Is this one piece of ideation by Prof Malone enough to hang abortion on demand on?


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    #2076
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hiya Bert,

    Just a reminder that I'm still waiting on the links from you to support your statement that doctors in the UK are just using mental health as an excuse for abortion.


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    #2077
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    The master of the Rotunda Hospital Dublin, Prof Fergal Malone...said: “We are aware of at least one of our patients from who died following a complication from a surgical termination of pregnancy while travelling between and a centre abroad.”
    The vagueness of this description is highlighted by the fact the IT first covered it as the person flying and then decided to change it to travelling.
    Surely ears cocked up in the IT offices when they heard this one. You have to believe if there was anything there we'd have got at least an anonymized retelling based on third party accounts.
    Finally the "at least" bit is just bizarre. In what state of existence was the second person Prof Malone may or may not be aware of?

    Is this one piece of ideation by Prof Malone enough to hang abortion on demand on?

    his use of english is quite clear. he is aware of one but that does not mean that they were the only one.


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    #2078
    Vlad Kelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32 ✭Vlad Kelly


    Libertarian, but no amount of leftist sophistry can obfuscate the fact that it's killing. If I'm not allowed to kill somebody in the street then logically I am not allowed to kill a kid in the womb. I'm staggered that leftist political views get take seriously, they are all conspiracy theories. Extreme right wing views are disagreeable morally, but at least they aren't based on outright fiction.


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    #2079
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    If you're guessing that my reply is that you're still avoiding my question, then top marks, that's exactly what my reply is. And it's no surprise you guessed that, because that's exactly what you're doing.

    It's obviously what you're going to continue doing too, so we'll leave it there. Thanks for proving there's no basis to anything you say.
    The use of the phrase "abortion on demand" obviously matters a lot to you. I certainly don't want to offend you, you make more of an effort than most posters here to engage in calm and reasonable debate. I thought I had adressed it by using your term "on request" in an earlier reply.
    If you are looking for a spelled out definition I think the dictionary one someone provided earlier is good.
    The term is used by everyone from journalists to judges without pejorative connotations. But if it matters that much to you I'll try to use it along with "abortion on request" in future


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    #2080
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Vlad Kelly wrote: »
    Libertarian, but no amount of leftist sophistry can obfuscate the fact that it's killing. If I'm not allowed to kill somebody in the street then logically I am not allowed to kill a kid in the womb. I'm staggered that leftist political views get take seriously, they are all conspiracy theories. Extreme right wing views are disagreeable morally, but at least they aren't based on outright fiction.

    well the law says differently.


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    #2081
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    A simple search based on the post by bertieinexile brings you to https://www.spuc.org.uk/abortion/uk/law

    The people who gaves us PLC.
    Who are PLC? google is giving me Post Leaving Certificate Courses and of course Public Limited Company.
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    The article is a twist in the actual abortion statistics published for England and Wales
    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales

    I say twist as they haven't provided any evidence to back up their claim that doctors simply put mental health down to allow abortion for an unwanted pregnancy.
    From that link Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf
    page 15

    In 2016, 97% of abortions (180,794) were undertaken under ground C.

    the vast majority (99.8%)of abortions carried out under ground C alone were reported as being performed because of a risk to the woman’s mental health. These were classified as F99 (mental disorder, not otherwise specified) under the International Classification of Disease version 10 (ICD-10)


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    #2082
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I seriously doubt that the UK ministry of health allow abortion on demand as described by the "article" and that many doctors are willing to jeopardise their licence to practice along with other sanctions. It would be to easy to prove by SPUC with actual tangible evidence if this was the case.

    So how do you account for the contributions from these two people
    Ann Furedi, the chief executive of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, said that pregnant women and doctors actively “pretend” that the women’s mental health is at risk so that they can sign off abortions without questions being asked.

    And the chairman of the Royal College of General Practitioners said a woman simply saying that she did not want to be pregnant now counted as enough evidence to justify an abortion

    Mrs Furedi told the programme that she stood by an article that she wrote five years ago in which she said the current law had made “actors” of doctor and patient.

    In the article, she wrote that “women have to pretend they will have a nervous breakdown if they continue the pregnancy, and doctors pretend to believe them”.


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    #2083
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    whatdoicare wrote:
    On the other side of it, I belong to two mother and baby online groups and out of 160 women, two are prolife, all of us have at least one child. Maybe going through the absolute f
    The other day I came across a FB page "In Her Shoes" when someone shared a post.
    The stories are truly shocking and eye opening.

    We all have our personal opinions on the 8th amendment but to hear from the ACTUAL, REAL women who have had their lives affected by the 8th are the main voices that should be heard.


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    #2084
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    After the 12th week of pregnancy, abortions will only be permitted when there is a threat to the life or threat “of serious harm” to the health of the mother, and in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities.
    So in light of the above few posts describing the situation in england would you accept that the proposed Irish legislation amounts to abortion on demand/request up to 24 weeks?


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    #2085
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Who are PLC? google is giving me Post Leaving Certificate Courses and of course Public Limited Company.

    You have to "help" it some bit, bit of context like

    http://bfy.tw/HK9V


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    #2086
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Who are PLC? google is giving me Post Leaving Certificate Courses and of course Public Limited Company.


    From that link Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf
    page 15

    In 2016, 97% of abortions (180,794) were undertaken under ground C.

    the vast majority (99.8%)of abortions carried out under ground C alone were reported as being performed because of a risk to the woman’s mental health. These were classified as F99 (mental disorder, not otherwise specified) under the International Classification of Disease version 10 (ICD-10)


    i'm going to assume this was a simple mistake on your part but ground C in the UK is
    C - the pregnancy has not exceeded its 24th week and the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman: Section 1(1)(a).

    you seem to have missed the physical part.


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    #2087
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Who are PLC? google is giving me Post Leaving Certificate Courses and of course Public Limited Company.


    From that link Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf
    page 15

    In 2016, 97% of abortions (180,794) were undertaken under ground C.

    the vast majority (99.8%)of abortions carried out under ground C alone were reported as being performed because of a risk to the woman’s mental health. These were classified as F99 (mental disorder, not otherwise specified) under the International Classification of Disease version 10 (ICD-10)

    Really you don't see that your entire original post was mostly to the "article" from SPUC?
    https://www.spuc.org.uk/abortion/uk/law

    And your honestly saying that you don't know that PLC as used in the thread is Pro Life Campain


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    #2088
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    So in light of the above few posts describing the situation in england would you accept that the proposed Irish legislation amounts to abortion on demand/request up to 24 weeks?

    I wouldn't. The UK legislation talks of "Risk of injury". this is very different to
    there is a threat to the life or threat “of serious harm” to the health of the mother, and in the cases of fatal foetal abnormalities.


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    #2089
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Who are PLC? google is giving me Post Leaving Certificate Courses and of course Public Limited Company.


    From that link Abortions_stats_England_Wales_2016.pdf
    page 15

    In 2016, 97% of abortions (180,794) were undertaken under ground C.

    the vast majority (99.8%)of abortions carried out under ground C alone were reported as being performed because of a risk to the woman’s mental health. These were classified as F99 (mental disorder, not otherwise specified) under the International Classification of Disease version 10 (ICD-10)

    Really you don't see that your entire original post was mostly to the "article" from SPUC?
    https://www.spuc.org.uk/abortion/uk/law

    And your honestly saying that you don't know that PLC as used in the thread is Pro Life Campain
    Crazies like bats come out at night


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    #2090
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Well, polling so far says it will be a resounding win for Yes, but it does seem to be tightening.
    I wouldn't be nearly that confident if I was you. I'm very happy with the way polling is going.
    The thing to focus on is the undecideds.
    In the preface to their previous poll, RedC pointed out that if same sex marriage was a guide most of the undecideds are actually no voters. When polite society, media and politics all condemn a point of view people tend to guard their opinions.
    This has been borne out in the latest poll. Compared to the last RedC poll undecideds have broken six to one in favour of no.
    If you add RedC undecideds to no voters (as they do in their report) you get a statistical tie on abortion on demand/request up to 12 weeks.
    The weird "in favour of repeal but not in favour of abortion on demand/request up to 12 weeks" vote has collapsed. Not surprisingly. I think it's down from 10% to 4%.

    Another more abstruse point, one I haven't seen commented on, also relates to undecided voters, in particular the ones in these RedC polls.
    Kantar Millward Brown and B&A both give similar results for support for abortion on demand/request up to 12 weeks - around 43yes /35no
    RedC give a much higher number for yes.
    But RedC throw a way a lot of voters that show up as undecided in the other organisation's polls.
    RedC ask people how likely they are to vote on a scale of 1 to 10 and ignore all further responses from everyone who answers 1 to 7.
    Seriously.
    I don't think it's very helpful in this case and probably explains the difference between RedC and the other polls.


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    #2091
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Vlad Kelly wrote: »
    Libertarian, but no amount of leftist sophistry can obfuscate the fact that it's killing. If I'm not allowed to kill somebody in the street then logically I am not allowed to kill a kid in the womb. I'm staggered that leftist political views get take seriously, they are all conspiracy theories. Extreme right wing views are disagreeable morally, but at least they aren't based on outright fiction.

    Well, that's certainly the most reasoned and coherent argument I've ever heard on the subject. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.


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    #2092
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Really your posting claims from people who run anti abortion crisis pregnancy services as evidence that mental health is used as an excuse to allow abortion??

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pregnancy_Advisory_Service


    nm. the post i replied to seems to have been deleted.


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    #2093
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    david75 wrote: »
    I’m not keeping score but she had a full opinion piece in the Times last week. One in the indo as posted above. And now allowed on radio.

    She lied and caused uproar in ucd.

    How is she allowed anywhere near print or airwaves??

    And are the Plc THAT tone deaf and that stupid they don’t see it’s terrible optics?

    Terrible optics? Definitely definitely not! She is young, articulate, well groomed and trained to deal with media.

    Older Irish people have an affection for articulate young people and are generally not clued into university politics.

    Giving her the national airwaves is perfect for them because the UCD debacle is not discussed. And if it is she can martyr herself.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2094
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    nm. the post i replied to seems to have been deleted.

    Yes sorry mix up on my part between two threads and a copy and paste mess up


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    #2095
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Vlad Kelly wrote: »
    Libertarian, but no amount of leftist sophistry can obfuscate the fact that it's killing. If I'm not allowed to kill somebody in the street then logically I am not allowed to kill a kid in the womb. I'm staggered that leftist political views get take seriously, they are all conspiracy theories. Extreme right wing views are disagreeable morally, but at least they aren't based on outright fiction.

    Brand new poster with 14 posts. Yay.


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    #2096
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    So in light of the above few posts describing the situation in england would you accept that the proposed Irish legislation amounts to abortion on demand/request up to 24 weeks?

    No. Of course it doesnt!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2097
    Oldtree
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    uncool

    Yea, that was Katies line this morning all right.


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    #2098
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Well, that's certainly the most reasoned and coherent argument I've ever heard on the subject. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    My friend got the attached leaflet handed to her the other day. We all had some laugh at the last paragraph.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2099
    preacher2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭preacher2


    The simple fact is, deciding whether or not another human being lives or dies based on your own convenience is disgusting and evil. Why should I join a military, deploy, fight terrorism, when babies are being murdered by the hundreds in my own home country?

    Anyone who thinks abortion is ok is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.


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    #2100
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    My friend got the attached leaflet handed to her the other day. We all had some laugh at the last paragraph.


    :eek::eek: They're actually giving these out? Surely something that misleading is not allowed?


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    #2101
    Martina1991
    Registered Users Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    preacher2 wrote:
    The simple fact is, deciding whether or not another human being lives or dies based on your own convenience is disgusting and evil. Why should I join a military, deploy, fight terrorism, when babies are being murdered by the hundreds in my own home country?
    preacher2 wrote:
    Anyone who thinks abortion is ok is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
    Another first time poster thinking abortion is some sort of convenience.

    Apt user name and all.


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