The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

captbarnacles

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Simi wrote: »

That's actually hilarious! I'm impressed they managed to make it all the way to 'point' 7 before descending into absolute insanity.

If you have a picture of the whole thing, I'd love to read the rest of their manifesto.

They handed them outside a pro choice event

Ok those are hilarious. So funny I think maybe satire? I was laughing by point 3.

Vote no to abortion so you aren't euthanised 50 years from now 😂

preacher2

Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

Now onto the REAL argument from ligertiton or however you spell it.. lol.

TBH I dont really get the last part, are you saying unborn birds have more rights than unborn babies if 8th is repealed? If so then what are your views?

Abortion for rape: I understand how traumatic rape is and whatever **** actually committed such disgusting acts will burn in hell, however I dont see how it is the childs fault? I get that the mother is now stuck with something she did not want from someone she now hates and possibly even doesnt know, however is killing the baby really the answer? Is it? Will it make it more traumatic? The answer is yes.

Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest, child will have a range of problems but its still human and again, the child, like a rape case doesnt need anyones permission to live. It was created and no it isnt ideal in fact its terrible but is killing it really going to help? TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

Medical problems: This is a bit broad, however when it comes down to this why cant you just go to UK? I still disagree with it but why cant you? Anyway, you need to be more specific because there is a massive array of medical problems that dont justify and abortion and a very small amount that do.

At the end of the day, pro-abortion campaigners honestly think government officials like our current Taoiseach is genuine about his feelings on abortion, however you need to remember that they are all being fed money by big US and UK companies who will be making millions off Irish abortions.

A child does NOT need anyone elses permission to live. The answer is no. Your convenience does not give you the right to kill a baby. I am sorry.

captbarnacles

Question 8 needs lizard people added.

Ave Sodalis

preacher2 wrote:

Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

The only people who storm out of these thread are anti-repeal supporters who cry that they're being bullied and losing their free speech when someone disagrees with them... I've been in and out of this thread since the start. Really not sure what your point is. Care to explain that, and the other post I askrd you to explain?

markodaly

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Are you basing this on any actual data? polls? Surveys?

Both the Citizens Assembly and the Oireachteas Committee effectlively recommended the pro-life people's worst nightmare, abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, and all the polling since still says a referendum will pass.

The polls show support for my position.

A total of 40pc said unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks was 'about right', while 8pc said it 'did not go far enough', a combined 48pc in favour.

However, 33pc said unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks 'went too far' and a further 19pc were undecided - a combined 52pc against or unsure.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/poll-shows-strong-support-in-favour-of-abortion-referendum-but-12-week-proposal-splits-public-36615455.html

Strong support to repeal the 8th but when it comes to the question of 12 weeks, the support falters considerably.

Also, we know that these polls have to be taken with a grain of salt, and we might see a silent 'save the 8th' voter come out to swing it.

38% of people voted against same sex marriage, which is not nearly as contentious as this issue. Those votes are pretty much in the bag for the save the 8th side. All they need is another 13%.

It will be close. The repeal side may shade it and when I say shade it there could be 2-3% in it. However, at this juncture, I can't see it happening.

Anyway, its my opinion. I know people take offence to opinions that don't tally to their own and see it as a mission to try and bully people into submission, but there you go.

Ave Sodalis

Oh wait, I just seen preachers other post on the home page about the military... I'm not expecting him to stay around for much longer...

markodaly

seamus wrote: »

Not a hope in hell. They're not interested in moral victories. Only actual victories.

Those actually campaigning to keep the eighth are not campaigning on the basis of ethics or morals. This is not about being "correct" for them. It's a matter of faith and belief. They believe abortion is wrong, and there is nothing which can sway them from that. As a result, the ends will always justify the means. They're not interested in being right, in having all the facts, in being honest, or moral, or fair.

Their only goal is to win.

The pro-choice side would not be campaigning for choice, if they did not have the data and the facts to back it up. If the data and the facts all said that yes, having access to abortion harms women and gives them less control over their bodies, then there would be no pro-choice campaign.

This is an odd post. It is one where you can demonise one side where they are based on faith and the other side based on facts, because I presume all the pro-choice people are medical professionals? LOL, get real. All people make emotional irrational choices.

This is the age old, moral argument where you want to be seen as the good guys, but also need an enemy who are the bad guys.

Both sides have valid beliefs and valid arguments. Its down to a question on what outcomes do you wish to see.

Virgil°

preacher2 wrote: »

Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

Now onto the REAL argument from ligertiton or however you spell it.. lol.

TBH I dont really get the last part, are you saying unborn birds have more rights than unborn babies if 8th is repealed? If so then what are your views?

Abortion for rape: I understand how traumatic rape is and whatever **** actually committed such disgusting acts will burn in hell, however I dont see how it is the childs fault? I get that the mother is now stuck with something she did not want from someone she now hates and possibly even doesnt know, however is killing the baby really the answer? Is it? Will it make it more traumatic? The answer is yes.

Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest, child will have a range of problems but its still human and again, the child, like a rape case doesnt need anyones permission to live. It was created and no it isnt ideal in fact its terrible but is killing it really going to help? TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

Medical problems: This is a bit broad, however when it comes down to this why cant you just go to UK? I still disagree with it but why cant you? Anyway, you need to be more specific because there is a massive array of medical problems that dont justify and abortion and a very small amount that do.

At the end of the day, pro-abortion campaigners honestly think government officials like our current Taoiseach is genuine about his feelings on abortion, however you need to remember that they are all being fed money by big US and UK companies who will be making millions off Irish abortions.

A child does NOT need anyone elses permission to live. The answer is no. Your convenience does not give you the right to kill a baby. I am sorry.

Can we just have this entire post stickied as points that have been brought up numerous times before and soundly rebutted each and every time? Make people read it before they get to post at all?

NIMBY - check
Fetus = baby/child - check
Pro choice = pro abortion - check
Tinfoil hat conspiracies - check
Woman will regret abortion - check

Its literally a picture perfect list of utterly erroneous assertions.

ligertigon

preacher2 wrote: »

Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

Now onto the REAL argument from ligertiton or however you spell it.. lol.

TBH I dont really get the last part, are you saying unborn birds have more rights than unborn babies if 8th is repealed? If so then what are your views?

Abortion for rape: I understand how traumatic rape is and whatever **** actually committed such disgusting acts will burn in hell, however I dont see how it is the childs fault? I get that the mother is now stuck with something she did not want from someone she now hates and possibly even doesnt know, however is killing the baby really the answer? Is it? Will it make it more traumatic? The answer is yes.

Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest, child will have a range of problems but its still human and again, the child, like a rape case doesnt need anyones permission to live. It was created and no it isnt ideal in fact its terrible but is killing it really going to help? TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

Medical problems: This is a bit broad, however when it comes down to this why cant you just go to UK? I still disagree with it but why cant you? Anyway, you need to be more specific because there is a massive array of medical problems that dont justify and abortion and a very small amount that do.

At the end of the day, pro-abortion campaigners honestly think government officials like our current Taoiseach is genuine about his feelings on abortion, however you need to remember that they are all being fed money by big US and UK companies who will be making millions off Irish abortions.

A child does NOT need anyone elses permission to live. The answer is no. Your convenience does not give you the right to kill a baby. I am sorry.

Points taken, I guess what I am saying, Is that I will be voting NO, based on the question put to voters, as it skews too far for me.
Physical Medical condition putting life of mother at risk, should be allowed, though on a list set in stone.
On demand? not a chance, responsibility comes in here.
I am an atheist, and not a liberal, and believe very strongly in protecting life but not the spawn of a rapist, though this would be hard to be proven in the short time frame...

Oldtree

ligertigon wrote: »

On demand? not a chance, responsibility comes in here.
I am an atheist, and not a liberal, and believe very strongly in protecting life but not the spawn of a rapist, though this would be hard to be proven in the short time frame...

So not on demand for the spawn of a rapist. How do you propose to seperate out this specific point? Put women on trial and require definitive proof before acceding to a legitimate termination in your eyes?

You will be asked a black and white question yes or no in may. #trustwomen

ligertigon

Oldtree wrote: »

So not on demand for the spawn of a rapist. How do you propose to seperate out this specific point? Put women on trial and require definitive proof before acceding to a legitimate termination in your eyes?

You will be asked a black and white question yes or no in may. #trustwomen

I don't propose anything. Not my job. Not interested.
My job is to vote on the question put to me with a yes/no.
So blame the citizens assembly for that one dude.

Ave Sodalis

ligertigon wrote:

I don't propose anything. Not my job. Not interested. My job is to vote on the question put to me with a yes/no. So blame the citizens assembly for that one dude.

Would you consider voting yes for repealing the 8th (seeing as it's caused a huge amount of problems), and then campaigning for different terms after the 8th is repealed? The 12 weeks isn't going into the constitution, so it's still changable with high enough demand.

ligertigon

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Would you consider voting yes for repealing the 8th (seeing as it's caused a huge amount of problems), and then campaigning for different terms after the 8th is repealed? The 12 weeks isn't going into the constitution, so it's still changable with high enough demand.

Good question. Though I wouldn't, simply because of the time duration and unpredictability involved.

Both sides of this debate are looking out for someone, difficult to see it at times. But there are many in the middle too that want some issues fixed with current system, but certainly do not want "on demand".

The phrasing will be more important than the y/n for the middlers

Oldtree

ligertigon wrote: »

I don't propose anything. Not my job. Not interested.
My job is to vote on the question put to me with a yes/no.
So blame the citizens assembly for that one dude.

You did propose somthing...

ligertigon wrote: »

and believe very strongly in protecting life but not the spawn of a rapist,

So dude I blame you for that one if as you say you will vote no. You can't have it every which way to suit yourself and well you know it.

Zubeneschamali

markodaly wrote: »

Strong support to repeal the 8th but when it comes to the question of 12 weeks, the support falters considerably.

We'll be voting a Yes/No repeal the 8th referendum, and not a 12 weeks unrestricted abortion referendum.

raztafari

Oldtree wrote: »

You did propose somthing...



So dude I blame you for that one if as you say you will vote no. You can't have it every which way to suit yourself and well you know it.

the big wheel keeps on turning

ligertigon

Oldtree wrote: »

You did propose somthing...



So dude I blame you for that one if as you say you will vote no. You can't have it every which way to suit yourself and well you know it.

Blame me for an opinion?
Yes I can have it every which way. Its called erring on the side of caution:D

Ave Sodalis

ligertigon wrote:

Good question. Though I wouldn't, simply because of the time duration and unpredictability involved.

The cases of rape, FFA etc cannot be accounted for while the 8th is in place. The 12 weeks isn't what we are voting for, just the removal of the 8th in order to legislate for anything else. As it stands, abortion will still be illegal after the referendum passes.

There's some truly horrific stories caused by the 8th. It's a terrible amendment that needs to go before it causes any more damage.

Simi

preacher2 wrote: »

Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest... TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

That is a disturbingly flippant dismissal of what in the majority of cases is sexual abuse of children by an older male relative.

I can't imagine the train of thought that would lead someone to conclude that forcing a child to continue with a pregnancy in these circumstances, regardless of the threat to her physical or mental health, is preferable to a termination. Frankly I'm glad I can't!

Oldtree

ligertigon wrote: »

Blame me for an opinion?
Yes I can have it every which way. Its called erring on the side of caution:D

You were blaming the citizens assembly, so you got blamed back

ligertigon wrote: »

So blame the citizens assembly for that one dude.

If you are erring on the side of caution then you know you are making an error and not on the side of caution for Irish women.

markodaly

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We'll be voting a Yes/No repeal the 8th referendum, and not a 12 weeks unrestricted abortion referendum.

What are you smoking?

The referendum is going to be a repeal, yes or not, but the public will want to know what legislation is going to be put in its place and they do not want it to be left as is, because if it were then there would be no hope in hell that the 8th would be repealed.

Without said legislation, an abortion could take place legally up to an hour before birth. This is untenable for obvious reasons.

To say the proposed legislation does not impact on the likely hood of repealing the amendment itself is rather stupid to say the least.

Oldtree

markodaly wrote: »

What are you smoking?

The referendum is going to be a repeal, yes or not, but the public will want to know what legislation is going to be put in its place and they do not want it to be left as is, because if it were then there would be no hope in hell that the 8th would be repealed.

Without said legislation, an abortion could take place legally up to an hour before birth. This is untenable for obvious reasons.

To say the proposed legislation does not impact on the likely hood of repealing the amendment itself is rather stupid to say the least.

Did you miss this bit, link gives a few pointers as to the legislation.

Oldtree wrote: »

The proposed legislation will include the following which may help to answer your question:

Doctors will on a case by case basis decide on the viability of the fetus.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0326/950089-eighth-amendment-cabinet/

markodaly

Oldtree wrote: »

Did you miss this bit, link gives a few pointers as to the legislation.

Perhaps you should have replied to the poster I replied to as its pertinent to him, not me.

erica74

preacher2 wrote: »

Abortion for rape: I understand how traumatic rape is and whatever **** actually committed such disgusting acts will burn in hell, however I dont see how it is the childs fault? I get that the mother is now stuck with something she did not want from someone she now hates and possibly even doesnt know, however is killing the baby really the answer? Is it? Will it make it more traumatic? The answer is yes.

You can't answer that question for every woman. You simply can't. You obviously think it's simple, sure why punish the baby, but you obviously don't know what it's like to have the seed of the man who raped you growing inside you, a constant reminder of what happened. Women who are against abortion may choose to continue with such a pregnancy, however, many will want to end the pregnancy as soon as possible.

preacher2 wrote: »

Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest, child will have a range of problems but its still human and again, the child, like a rape case doesnt need anyones permission to live. It was created and no it isnt ideal in fact its terrible but is killing it really going to help? TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

You know, I thought the very same thing. I was around the age of 8 when my brother started sexually abusing me - I don't remember exactly because I have blocked out so much of my childhood. I always thought what happened in TV programs and films was what happened in real life, meeting and dating and eventually kissing and whatever else happened after that, I didn't know because I was so young. Then my brother started sexually abusing me and I didn't understand what that meant in the context of what I had seen in TV programs, the girl and the boy on the TV held hands and smiled at each other and went to the cinema. I didn't understand what was happening to me and how it fitted into the world.
I am grateful every fucking day that I didn't end up pregnant in this country when I was 8, 9, 10, 11, 12.
I didn't "have sex" with a family member, I didn't even know what that was, I didn't even know that was what was happening to me.

preacher2 wrote: »

Medical problems: This is a bit broad, however when it comes down to this why cant you just go to UK? I still disagree with it but why cant you? Anyway, you need to be more specific because there is a massive array of medical problems that dont justify and abortion and a very small amount that do.

But I thought you said abortion was murder? How come it's not murder if it happens in the UK? Does that mean that all the abortions that happen in the UK aren't murder?

preacher2 wrote: »

At the end of the day, pro-abortion campaigners honestly think government officials like our current Taoiseach is genuine about his feelings on abortion, however you need to remember that they are all being fed money by big US and UK companies who will be making millions off Irish abortions.

I'm not "pro-abortion", I'm prochoice. I want every woman to be able to choose for herself in Ireland how she progresses with her pregnancy.

preacher2 wrote: »

I am sorry.

You're not.

david75

We knew this but a good read all the same

Fintan O’Toole: Abortion fake-news firestorm heading our way
Why has Save the 8th hired consultant at heart of Trump-Mercer-Brexit data nexus?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-abortion-fake-news-firestorm-heading-our-way-1.3440927

Hannibal_Smith

preacher2 wrote: »

Why do you call eachother ''pro choice''?

You have choice? You can go out and cut your own ears off if and feed them to birds, nobody cares. You can tattoo a snake over your face, nobody cares. You can get surgery to put fake horns under your skin NOBODY CARES.

You have full choice. But when it comes to a DIFFERENT body (not your body - basic biology) then no, you do not nor will you EVER have the right to decide what happens to it. No matter what happens with the 8th.

What different body? It's not affecting a different body, it's affecting one body, one person's body. If you have the choice to do whatever with your own body and it's no one else's business, why is abortion someone else's business.

I have to say at least you're consistent though. I never understood how someone could be pro life in relation to pregnancy but pro choice when it comes to rape. At least you stick to your beliefs all the way through.

Though anyone who can downgrade a woman and dictate what she can do to her body doesn't really carry much weight with me, you vote with your conscience on the day.

Annasopra

preacher2 wrote: »

What? I am not asking for you to build me a rocket ship here, I am not here trying to argue with you, which you are clearly trying to do with me and I promise it wont end well.

Just bring me a basic argument for abortion. 1 argument, I seen a women do it a few posts up but Im not sure if shes here for a debate.

Most of you people dont want to listen so I am asking for one of you to come to a debate here.

Nah. I think its you who doesnt want to listen. Just preach.

david75

Are these guys knowingly warping into a parody of themselves and gettin more ridiculous or is it just me?

Annasopra

ligertigon wrote: »

Abortion for rape / incest/ medical problems/complications... yes from me.

But not on demand.

Pro choice? you had a choice when the big mickey was going into the love tunnel did school not tell you about that part?

On another note, In Ireland, unborn wild birds in eggs have rights but humans don't ? lol

For the 100 millionth time in this thread. Not every woman had a choice in becoming pregnant. They may have been victims of rape, sexual assualt, incest. Their contraception may have failed. So cop on with your sh*te posting about Mickeys.

Ismisejack

people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?