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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #2162
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Ok those are hilarious. So funny I think maybe satire? I was laughing by point 3.

    Vote no to abortion so you aren't euthanised 50 years from now ��

    Not satire. They were being handed with love both literature.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2163
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?

    Are you drunk? Seriously?? This hour of the morning??
    To be fair nobody is supporting murder. You know that though.
    We probably should legalise a lot of drugs. It would stop a lot of drug related crime.


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    #2164
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    preacher2 wrote: »
    Ok Ave I dont need to waste time with your little argument. Simple answer: Most people who support abortion are liberal/leftist (NOT ALL) but most. Now if you look anywhere you can see that leftist snowflakes storm out of the place when anyone argues with them. They will call you a Nazi when they actually possess the most fascist traits.

    Now onto the REAL argument from ligertiton or however you spell it.. lol.

    TBH I dont really get the last part, are you saying unborn birds have more rights than unborn babies if 8th is repealed? If so then what are your views?

    Abortion for rape: I understand how traumatic rape is and whatever **** actually committed such disgusting acts will burn in hell, however I dont see how it is the childs fault? I get that the mother is now stuck with something she did not want from someone she now hates and possibly even doesnt know, however is killing the baby really the answer? Is it? Will it make it more traumatic? The answer is yes.

    Incest: Bit of a weird one to be honest, child will have a range of problems but its still human and again, the child, like a rape case doesnt need anyones permission to live. It was created and no it isnt ideal in fact its terrible but is killing it really going to help? TBH you shouldnt be having sex with your family anyway however its still a life.

    Medical problems: This is a bit broad, however when it comes down to this why cant you just go to UK? I still disagree with it but why cant you? Anyway, you need to be more specific because there is a massive array of medical problems that dont justify and abortion and a very small amount that do.

    At the end of the day, pro-abortion campaigners honestly think government officials like our current Taoiseach is genuine about his feelings on abortion, however you need to remember that they are all being fed money by big US and UK companies who will be making millions off Irish abortions.

    A child does NOT need anyone elses permission to live. The answer is no. Your convenience does not give you the right to kill a baby. I am sorry.

    You want to force women who are victims of rape and incest to give birth against their wishes basically.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2165
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?

    Murder is the unlawful killing of a person by another person. Nobody is murdering another person or promoting that that should be legalised.


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    #2166
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    markodaly wrote: »
    What are you smoking?

    The referendum is going to be a repeal, yes or not, but the public will want to know what legislation is going to be put in its place and they do not want it to be left as is, because if it were then there would be no hope in hell that the 8th would be repealed.

    Without said legislation, an abortion could take place legally up to an hour before birth. This is untenable for obvious reasons.

    To say the proposed legislation does not impact on the likely hood of repealing the amendment itself is rather stupid to say the least.

    This is just rubbish, nonsense and extreme scaremongering.

    If the referendum goes through then abortion law is still governed by legislation on the current statute book including

    The offences against the state act 1861.
    The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.

    Please stop making stuff up.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2167
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Murder is the unlawful killing of a person by another person. Nobody is murdering another person or promoting that that should be legalised.

    Abortion is the unlawful killing of another unborn child, and that is what yee are trying to legalize


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    #2168
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    markodaly wrote: »
    What are you smoking?

    The referendum is going to be a repeal, yes or not, but the public will want to know what legislation is going to be put in its place and they do not want it to be left as is, because if it were then there would be no hope in hell that the 8th would be repealed.

    Without said legislation, an abortion could take place legally up to an hour before birth. This is untenable for obvious reasons.

    To say the proposed legislation does not impact on the likely hood of repealing the amendment itself is rather stupid to say the least.

    I think the legislation as it stands now will be in place until some other legislation replaces it.
    It won't be a case of repeal winning the day and abortion the next day, the legislation to replace the eighth will have to be in place before its rules come in to play.
    We will be voting for, repeal the eighth and allow the oireachtas to legislate for abortion, yes or no.
    We will not be voting for what comes after, the oireachtas will.
    FG will have their proposal to replace the eighth published and outlining what they propose, but that might not be the actual replacement.


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    #2169
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?

    'murdering the born?????
    Exaggerate much there by any chance? The whole point of this referendum is the provision of abortion services before 12 weeks. Nothing 'born comes into it - unless you are referring to the mother....:confused:


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    #2170
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?
    Are you still refusing to answer my question. Let me ask again? If your girlfriend wss raped by her brother or father and wanted to access an abortion, do you think she should be forced to give birth?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2171
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    gozunda wrote: »
    'murdering the born?????
    Exaggerate much there by any chance? The whole point of this referendum is the provision of abortion services before 12 weeks. Nothing 'born comes into it - unless you are referring to the mother....:confused:

    If u took care to read my post that my referring to murder of the born I was referring to murder and distinguished it from murder of the unborn (abortion)


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    #2172
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    If u took care to read my post that my referring to murder of the born I was referring to murder and distinguished it from murder of the unborn (abortion)

    Still refusing to answer my question?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2173
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Are you still refusing to answer my question. Let me ask again? If your girlfriend wss raped by her brother or father and wanted to access an abortion, do you think she should be forced to give birth?
    I would assist her in whatever way possible however the unborn child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions.


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    #2174
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    I would assist her in whatever way possible however the unborn child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions.

    So you do believe she should be forced to give birth against her will then.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2175
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?

    Maybe because most people are against murdering actual babies!!
    Anti choicers keep comparing legalising abortion with legalising drugs, while at the same time ignoring that Irish women already have constitutional protection to procure an abortion aslong as they can afford to travel.
    So your trying to compare to things that aren't comparable in a poor attempt to make an arguement that isn't actually an arguement.


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    #2176
    frag420
    Registered Users Posts: 6,158 ✭✭✭frag420


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    I would assist her in whatever way possible however the unborn child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions.

    What if your father raped your 14 yr old sister....would you force her to term if she wanted to terminate the pregnancy?


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    #2177
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Abortion is the unlawful killing of another unborn child, and that is what yee are trying to legalize
    Ismisejack wrote: »
    In Ireland abortion services are not currently provided . That is what many are trying to legalise

    Fixed that for you ... ;)


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    #2178
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    So you do believe she should be forced to give birth against her will then.

    She has been victim of an awful crime and should be compensated as a result, the perpetrators punished appropriately , however killing the unborn isn’t the solution, there is more humane solutions, two wrongs don’t make a right, the child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions. The mother should be assisted every way possible with her pregnancy


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    #2179
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    gozunda wrote: »
    Fixed that for you ... ;)

    Apart from cases that meet criteria in POLDPA Act 2013

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2180
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    If u took care to read my post that my referring to murder of the born I was referring to murder and distinguished it from murder of the unborn (abortion)

    No you were using hyperbole and exaggeration which unfortunately made no sense whatsover with regard to the current debate


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    #2181
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    She has been victim of an awful crime and should be compensated as a result, the perpetrators punished appropriately , however killing the unborn isn’t the solution, there is more humane solutions, two wrongs don’t make a right, the child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions. The mother should be assisted every way possible with her pregnancy


    So you support rape?


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    #2182
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    She has been victim of an awful crime and should be compensated as a result, the perpetrators punished appropriately , however killing the unborn isn’t the solution, there is more humane solutions, two wrongs don’t make a right, the child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions. The mother should be assisted every way possible with her pregnancy

    Yes. And you believe in forcing her to carry the pregnancy to full term against her wishes. Not sure how you can call that humane.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2183
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Murder is the unlawful killing of a person by another person. Nobody is murdering another person or promoting that that should be legalised.

    Abortion is the unlawful killing of another unborn child, and that is what yee are trying to legalize

    Unborn child is not another person. This has been explained to you time and again. You don't understand the fetus developmental process, that is clear. But I think the repeated wading in here with inflammatory claims and accusations, insulting the opinion of other posters because they don't align with your beliefs does not help the discussion. You are not going to change your mind, your vote is clear, so are we just going to have to continue to be subjected to your venting?

    Abortion is illegal yes. That is what we are trying to change yes. It is not murder. No one is murdering anyone.


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    #2184
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Apart from cases that meet criteria in POLDPA Act 2013

    True - my omission ;)


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    #2185
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    david75 wrote: »
    So you support rape?

    I clearly stated that rape is an inexcusable crime and not for one second did I say anything other than that so stop putting words in my mouth and spreading false and utterly untrue propaganda about me tarnishing my nane


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    #2186
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    professore wrote: »
    What worries me is that once the 8th is repealed, the unborn child has no rights whatsoever under the constitution. That's a problem for me.

    The status quo is also a problem because it means a pregnant woman effectively has no rights, bar her right to life. Other rights, such as her right to bodily autonomy, her right to her health, her right to be free of cruel and degrading treatment all go out the window.

    The exception to that is the freedom to travel, which means the constitution says the unborn has no rights if the woman has the means and desire to travel.

    The present situation is the result of putting rights for the unborn into the constitution. As someone else said, the unborn in Ireland managed fine without constitutional rights up to 1983, and they manage fine without them in most other countries. Their rights are more appropriately set out in legislation, because for every unborn, there's a woman. Their rights must be considered and protected as well and that's best done in legislation, not a constitution.
    professore wrote: »
    There could have been some reasonable replacement for the 8th instead of repeal.

    Not really, and there's a reason not one single politician or legal expert has proposed it as a alternative.

    Back in 1983, the Attorney General's legal opinion was the 8th wasn't fit for purpose. As he put it, the subject matter is too complex and touches on too many other disciplines, eg medical, and ethical, to be properly dealt with in a constitutional provision.

    And he was right, because look what's happened since: we've had 4, soon to be 5, subsequent referendums, multiple high court and supreme courts cases, and numerous citations against us from internationally recognised human rights authorities.

    Amendments are supposed to settle matters, not create more questions, and I can't imagine that a replacement to the 8th wouldn't be just as bad, if not worse.
    professore wrote: »
    It's like the choice between Hillary and Trump all over again.

    That's not even a choice, but it's a very good analogy.

    The former is someone who is absolutely qualified for the job, isn't by any means perfect, but can be trusted to do the job and not cause a complete mess. The latter is the status quo, which few if any support, doesn't do the job it's supposed to do, and which is only going to get worse over time.

    Some people may not consider Hilary perfect, but neither is Trump and Hilary's far and away the least worse option of the two. The same goes for the choice between a Yes and a No vote.


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    #2187
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    Using positive words such as choice etc and calling unborn child fetus etc is pro abortion contingents way of making abortion sound less inhumane than it actually is


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    #2188
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    people have abortions anyway the anti life side claim, as if that is a legitimate reason for legalizing abortion. Lots of people do drigs anyway so why legalize them too. And murder ( of the born), that happens regularly too so why don’t the pro choice people want choice when it comes to murdering the born?

    The first problem with your nonsense here is that you have failed to offer any arguments, when challenged, on why we should not have abortion up to 12 weeks in the first place. You demand we "legitimize" abortion, but have no arguments against it. In a world of "innocent until proven guilty" it should be you explaining what is WRONG with abortion, not us having to defend it against a prosecution case that you are both unwilling AND incapable of leveling.

    The second problem here with your nonsense is that there are indeed very good reasons to legalize drugs. So your "why not legalize them too" falls on it's own face. Shoot yourself in the foot much?

    The third and most important fail in your nonsense however is the comparison of murdering children with the abortion of the fetus. Not least because you clearly do not know what the word "murder" means. But also because the two simply are not equivalent. We kill life all the time on this planet. In farming, medicine, manufacturing and much more we are in the business daily of ending life. If we wish to define certain life as being protected from that, then we must be clear on what basis. What attributes must "life" have to protect it with a "right to life" exactly?

    Aside from screeching words like "child" and "born" and "baby" and "human" at this question, you and your anti choice cohort have not answered this question. And I think you know as well as I do why that is. It is quite simply because you know as well as I do what the attributes I speak of are. And the fetus at 0-16 weeks lacks them not just slightly but ENTIRELY.

    So the best you can do is dodge and ignore the question, and engage in these ongoing hit and run posts of soap boxing where you do not actually engage in good faith with any level of discourse on the topic. Just a periodic spewing of propaganda upon which you allow no honest two way discussion. An MO that benefits the pro-choice side more than you know. So by all means do keep it up.


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    #2189
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Using positive words such as choice etc and calling unborn child fetus etc is pro abortion contingents way of making abortion sound less inhumane than it actually is

    To be honest I dont understand the inhumamnity of forcing any woman to remain pregnant against her wishes. Thats inhumane.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #2190
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    She has been victim of an awful crime and should be compensated as a result, the perpetrators punished appropriately , however killing the unborn isn’t the solution, there is more humane solutions, two wrongs don’t make a right, the child shouldn’t get the death sentence for its fathers actions. The mother should be assisted every way possible with her pregnancy

    so you are saying that a rape victim should be forced to remain pregnant under coercion? Enforced pregnancy?:mad:

    Theres your Pro-Life compassion and humanity folks, queue and take a look!


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    #2191
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    The first problem with your nonsense here is that you have failed to offer any arguments, when challenged, on why we should not have abortion up to 12 weeks in the first place. You demand we "legitimize" abortion, but have no arguments against it. In a world of "innocent until proven guilty" it should be you explaining what is WRONG with abortion, not us having to defend it against a prosecution case that you are both unwilling AND incapable of leveling.

    The second problem here with your nonsense is that there are indeed very good reasons to legalize drugs. So your "why not legalize them too" falls on it's own face. Shoot yourself in the foot much?

    The third and most important fail in your nonsense however is the comparison of murdering children with the abortion of the fetus. Not least because you clearly do not know what the word "murder" means. But also because the two simply are not equivalent. We kill life all the time on this planet. In farming, medicine, manufacturing and much more we are in the business daily of ending life. If we wish to define certain life as being protected from that, then we must be clear on what basis. What attributes must "life" have to protect it with a "right to life" exactly?

    Aside from screeching words like "child" and "born" and "baby" and "human" at this question, you and your anti choice cohort have not answered this question. And I think you know as well as I do why that is. It is quite simply because you know as well as I do what the attributes I speak of are. And the fetus at 0-16 weeks lacks them not just slightly but ENTIRELY.

    So the best you can do is dodge and ignore the question, and engage in these ongoing hit and run posts of soap boxing where you do not actually engage in good faith with any level of discourse on the topic. Just a periodic spewing of propaganda upon which you allow no honest two way discussion. An MO that benefits the pro-choice side more than you know. So by all means do keep it up.
    I have clearly stated the reason behind my stance against abortion- abortion ends human life , it’s the act of killing an unborn child and in my opinion that is wholly unacceptable. Simple as that


This discussion has been closed.
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