The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

bertieinexile

Kyta wrote: »

On a meta (sort of) level, I was reading this thread recently and took a step back to ask myself - why are the posters here (on either side of the debate) participating in this discussion on boards.ie?

There are generally 2 classes of people in discussion forums, posters actively engaging in the debate, and readers (Which I was for the last few months) either registered or unregistered on the website.

From what I can see, anyone actively participating and posting on the thread has a very firm (bordering extreme in some cases) stance on their position and would never in a million years be swayed from a yes to a no vote, or vice versa. And yet both sides continue to participate.

Also historically abortion has been a very divisive issue in society. There are actually very few "undecideds", which admittedly I know is just anecdotal evidence from my own experience. I know the polls say 15-22% are undecided, but I'm guessing a certain % of those polled chose not to divulge their opinion for personal reasons which is understandable. And as we have seen with Trump and Brexit, polls do not always reflect the actual vote on the day. I just looked at the poll on this thread and the undecideds are less than 7%. Which again reflects the demographic on this website vs. the general public who are 15-22% undecided depending on the polling company. I guess the elderly contingent of society (60+) is less likely to have a boards.ie account than millenials. Yet they are still a large demographic in Irish society. Just an example of a demographic possibly missing from the boards.ie poll vs. Kantar media polls and so on..

My question I guess is, (again whether you are pro-life or pro-choice) are you posting here in an attempt to sway the opinion of potentially undecided voters who are reading the thread? And do you think the % of undecideds who you could potentially convince to vote your way is large enough to affect the outcome of this referendum?

I'm trying to put people off voting yes, but I'm just one man and there's only so much I can do. Thank God for Colm O'Gorman.

Yeah_Right

Kyta wrote: »

On a meta (sort of) level, I was reading this thread recently and took a step back to ask myself - why are the posters here (on either side of the debate) participating in this discussion on boards.ie?

There are generally 2 classes of people in discussion forums, posters actively engaging in the debate, and readers (Which I was for the last few months) either registered or unregistered on the website.

From what I can see, anyone actively participating and posting on the thread has a very firm (bordering extreme in some cases) stance on their position and would never in a million years be swayed from a yes to a no vote, or vice versa. And yet both sides continue to participate.

Also historically abortion has been a very divisive issue in society. There are actually very few "undecideds", which admittedly I know is just anecdotal evidence from my own experience. I know the polls say 15-22% are undecided, but I'm guessing a certain % of those polled chose not to divulge their opinion for personal reasons which is understandable. And as we have seen with Trump and Brexit, polls do not always reflect the actual vote on polling day. I just looked at the poll on this thread and the undecideds are less than 7%. Which again reflects the demographic on this website vs. the general public who are 15-22% undecided depending on the polling company. I guess the elderly contingent of society (60+) is less likely to have a boards.ie account than millenials.

My question I guess is, (again whether you are pro-life or pro-choice) are you posting here in an attempt to sway the opinion of potentially undecided voters who are reading the thread? And do you think the % of undecideds who you could potentially convince to vote your way is large enough to affect the outcome of this referendum?

I get what you are saying but I've found it useful. I'm pro-choice but I can't vote (not a citizen) and I won't be campaigning because I don't care enough about it. But by reading this thread and it's predecessor, I have learnt a lot and picked up some great arguments for the times that I have had a conversation with pro-lifers. There are some very knowledgeable and articulate posters on here (Nozz springs to mind but others as well).

I was actually talking about it with my brother-in-law and his wife about the referendum (they can vote) and I was surprised to discover that they were anti-abortion. Not rabidly but they didn't like it. I think I managed to turn them around on the referendum using a lot of what I've learnt on here. Their knowledge of the 8th amendment and what a repeal would mean was shocking. I knew a lot more and I'm a damned foreigner

.......

This post has been deleted.

January

It could have been complete codswallop but someone has told me on this thread that my posting has changed their vote to repeal. So I'll keep it up as long as I need to, if I even change one voters mind I'm a happy bunny.

david75

I’m morbidly self flaggelating waiting for a genuine poster with a cogent argument against giving women full rights to bodily autonomy and stripping Ireland of such an evil damaging and cruel amendment.

All we’ve gotten so far ranges from pure lies and hysteria up to people somehow thinking it’s their business what goes on in women’s bodies and so far, dress that up to varying degrees of poorly made conscience objections arguments and nimbyism.

.......

This post has been deleted.

david75

....... wrote: »

I also feel its important to post here and stop misinformation from being spread.

I have seen a lot of opinion posted as fact. I like to ask for evidence for claims. I like to correct outright lies with substantiated fact.

I mentioned this very early in the 1st version of this thread but it is quite clear that the vast majority of the pro choice posts are reasoned and measured and discuss fact while the vast majority of the prolife posts are ranty and emotionally driven with no factual evidence behind them, and worse, a refusal to accept fact even when its presented. Now there are exceptions and there are some calm and reasonable pro life posters and some nutty pro choice ones. But the trend itself would push me towards pro choice as I wouldnt want to be associated with folk who just shout and rant and dont accept research or fact.

Id be very interested in an analysis of the posts on this thread and if we could somehow rate them as "untrue" or "factually incorrect" and just compare the stats.

Problem is, we’re seeing all those lying and hysterical posts here and can call it out but this is a pretty tiny microcosm. The PLC are out there in numbers spreading all this exact same bullsh!t. And if we know anything it’s that fear and lies they way they’re doing it, sticks in people’s minds no matter how much factual evidence or heartbreaking stories. Every time.

That’s worrying.

Bannasidhe

Ismisejack wrote: »

Spoke to a group of fellow young people today(18-22), most hold pro life views, but not all, but those with pro life views all said that same thing, that they felt pressurised by society to keep quiet on their views and that they felt they’d be labeled inaccurate derogatory names such as women haters and dinosaurs ( completely and utterly untrue) if they let their view known, it seems standing up for the unborn is seen as uncool to the elites and biased media up in Dublin

Really. Back in '83 I was verbally abused, called a baby murderer, spat at, slapped and shoved for handing out pro-choice leaflets. I was 17 years old and of slight build. Grown men were shoving me around and screaming in my face. I was chased down Patrick Street in Cork by a baying mob and escaped without serious injury only because my cousin was a bus driver and happened to be passing, he stopped his bus, opened the door so I could get on, and drove off.

A work colleague in London told me that one of the main reasons he had left Ireland was because he was so badly beaten by people he thought were friends - in fact his own uncle was involved - that he spent 3 weeks in hospital - he had been handing out pro-choice leaflets in Clonakilty.

When you have suffered physical violence from people who say they are pro-life sympathy for those who fear being seen as 'uncool' is in short supply.

AudreyHepburn

Oldtree wrote: »

He does say he is "middle ground".

I think he wants to ensure that every woman is fully informed 'before' making her final decision (she may not be fully informed before going into the doctor) and that is a middle ground issue, being addressed to the middle ground.

That’s how I interpreted his words too and I am in full agreement.

There has to be some sort of legislation in place so that we don’t end up in a situation where you can simply walk in off the street, demand an abortion and be given one.

It’s too complex an issue to allow that.

david75

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That’s how I interpreted his words too and I am in full agreement.

There has to be some sort of legislation in place so that we don’t end up in a situation where you can simply walk in off the street, demand an abortion and be given one.

It’s too complex an issue to allow that.

I don’t think you’re being very fair to women or girls with that last comment. At all. Or showing much awareness of the entire issue as it affects women to be honest.

I know certain elements are trying to paint it like ‘most young ones are sluts just out riding and will be using this as a revolving door thing. And serves them right! Save the eighth!’


You disrespect all women by putting them in that bracket with that kind of comment.

January

Nobody walks in off the street and demands an abortion. Nobody.

AudreyHepburn

david75 wrote: »

I don’t think you’re being very fair to women or girls with that last comment. At all. Or showing much awareness of the entire issue as it affects women to be honest.

I know certain elements are trying to paint it like ‘most young ones are sluts just out riding and will be using this as a revolving door thing. And serves them right! Save the eighth!’


You disrespect all women by putting them in that bracket with that kind of comment.

First of all I am a woman and as such I understand perfectly how this issue affects us.

Second I never called anyone a slut or sought to degrade or disrespect anyone.

I just feel it’s important that there are proper processes and guidelines in place to deal with this issue.

Martina1991

Kyta wrote:

My question I guess is, (again whether you are pro-life or pro-choice) are you posting here in an attempt to sway the opinion of potentially undecided voters who are reading the thread?

I started off as just a reader of this thread but feel compelled at times to post when I see blatant lies and ignorance portrayed as fact.

Oldtree

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That’s how I interpreted his words too and I am in full agreement.

There has to be some sort of legislation in place so that we don’t end up in a situation where you can simply walk in off the street, demand an abortion and be given one.

It’s too complex an issue to allow that.

Do you really think any women would do that? On a whim?

Ave Sodalis

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

First of all I am a woman and as such I understand perfectly how this issue affects us.

Second I never called anyone a slut or sought to degrade or disrespect anyone.

I just feel it’s important that there are proper processes and guidelines in place to deal with this issue.

Is there any medical procedure you can walk in off the street and demand to be given?

Take something along similar lines: getting your tubes tied or getting the snip. Despite it being a decision that affects absolutely nobody else except a woman/man and maybe their partner, most doctors will refuse to do it unless under exceptional circumstances. The procedure is legal, and is still exceptionally difficult to get. With that in mind, do you really think it's going to be a case of strolling in during lunch time, and back again to finish off your day?

AudreyHepburn

Oldtree wrote: »

Do you really think any women would do that? On a whim?

To be fair no I don’t - I was being facetious I suppose. I’d imagine it’ll be like any other doctors appointment that you make.

I just hope that like a normal gp appointment you would be sat down and talked to, given all the options available and any other supports you require and that like any other medical treatment you are given time to come to a decision.

I just fear many on the pro choice side want abortion on demand with no questions asked and I couldn’t in good conscience agree to that.

January

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

To be fair no I don’t - I was being facetious I suppose. I’d imagine it’ll be like any other doctors appointment that you make.

I just hope that like a normal gp appointment you would be sat down and talked to, given all the options available and any other supports you require and that like any other medical treatment you are given time to come to a decision.

I just fear many on the pro choice side want abortion on demand with no questions asked and I couldn’t in good conscience agree to that.

No, we want abortion on request and the only questions asked should be 'are you sure' and 'when was your last period so we can calculate your gestation'. If there's a query over the gestation then further investigation should be required but why should they have to disclose a reason before 12 weeks?

Oldtree

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

To be fair no I don’t - I was being facetious I suppose. I’d imagine it’ll be like any other doctors appointment that you make.

I just hope that like a normal gp appointment you would be sat down and talked to, given all the options available and any other supports you require and that like any other medical treatment you are given time to come to a decision.

I just fear many on the pro choice side want abortion on demand with no questions asked and I couldn’t in good conscience agree to that.

The way you were articulating the point, made me think you were an anti-choicer scaremongering from a slightly different angle. and the same again highlighted in bold above.

No sane person has any time for the "abortion on demand" theory touted by the anti-choice brigade, so the fear of it is not a reality.

Achasanai

Kyta wrote: »

My question I guess is, (again whether you are pro-life or pro-choice) are you posting here in an attempt to sway the opinion of potentially undecided voters who are reading the thread? And do you think the % of undecideds who you could potentially convince to vote your way is large enough to affect the outcome of this referendum?

I think there definitely are undecideds reading the thread - probably not registered or if they are, they're just reading and not commenting, so it makes sense to have the arguments out here.

I find some of the more knowledgeable posters make some very good points, and reference cases that I was unaware of. These definitely help in the real world, where I'm talking to those who are (or were) undecided, and it makes a real difference. I know I've changed the mind of at least some, and I can see other people changing their opinions slowly. Having the conversation in real life is key, but having it here is a start.

david75

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

First of all I am a woman and as such I understand perfectly how this issue affects us.

Second I never called anyone a slut or sought to degrade or disrespect anyone.

I just feel it’s important that there are proper processes and guidelines in place to deal with this issue.

Within any luck, and in all probability, this will be the most scrutinised well thought out and watertight legislation we ever pass. We’ve probably never dealt with anything nearly as important that affects and concerns our society and affects every single woman and girl (well; of child bearing age and soon to be) as well as it affecting social strata and class.

It’s time for this to happen. They won’t screw it up. (If we can just get Coveney to put his feet down on the floor rather than his mouth)

AudreyHepburn

Oldtree wrote: »

The way you were articulating the point, made me think you were an anti-choicer scaremongering from a slightly different angle. and the same again highlighted in bold above.

No sane person has any time for the "abortion on demand" theory touted by the anti-choice brigade, so the fear of it is not a reality.

I’ve said countless times that I am pro choice. I will vote to repeal one way or the other.

The poster above you, a pro choicer, clearly states ‘we want abortion on request ’ - clearly some apparently sane folks to want that.

As I say I will vote to repeal regardless but let’s not pretend everyone on the choice is being reasonable.

January

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’ve said countless times that I am pro choice. I will vote to repeal one way or the other.

The poster above you, a pro choicer, clearly states ‘we want abortion on request ’ - clearly some apparently sane folks to want that.

As I say I will vote to repeal regardless but let’s not pretend everyone on the choice is being reasonable.

I don't see why abortion on request up to 12 weeks is a bad thing. In fact I see the 12 week cut off point as too restrictive given how small a window it is to make a decision and how we cannot detect major, non fatal, disabilities before the 20 week anatomy scan.

Soulsun

Are we on course for a 25th May vote?

david75

*seem to be replying to a post that has disappeared but anyways.

We’re seeing our government attempting to Overturn a referendum result from 1983 owing to public demand so who can say. I can’t see Ireland going full tilt conservative in the future and overturning this result of it passes.

But who knows.

January

Soulsun wrote: »

Are we on course for a 25th May vote?

Yeah, we are still on course for that date barring any major set backs.

erica74

January wrote: »

I don't see why abortion on request up to 12 weeks is a bad thing. In fact I see the 12 week cut off point as too restrictive given how small a window it is to make a decision and how we cannot detect major, non fatal, disabilities before the 20 week anatomy scan.

Abortion on request is literally a precise description of what initiation of the process should be. "Hallo Dr Xxxx, I would like to request an abortion."

Zubeneschamali

January wrote: »

I even change one voters mind I'm a happy bunny.

This. I get exactly one vote, and it was always going to be yes. So that's +1 for repeal.

But if I talk one No voter into voting Yes, thats -1 No, +1 yes, net gain 2.

So talking one single solitary No voter into voting Yes has twice as much effect as my own vote.

Of course the No voters with fixed ideas are not going to change, but there are lots of readers who are not so set in their ideas. Watching No 'spokespeople' post nonsense, lies, insults, deranged rants and then get thread banned over and over has to make people who agree with them go "Hmmmm".

NuMarvel

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There has to be some sort of legislation in place so that we don’t end up in a situation where you can simply walk in off the street, demand an abortion and be given one.

It’s too complex an issue to allow that.

There was always going to be post-referendum legislation. Always. And that legislation was always going to go no further than what the Assembly recommended. Indeed, what's being proposed has stepped back somewhat from the Assembly's recommendations.

I can't see how anyone could seriously contemplate that Ireland would go from having one of the most restrictive abortion regimes to one of the least in one fell swoop. There was always going to be legislation, and it was never going to be anything radical or groundbreaking.

Annasopra

markodaly wrote: »

Au Contraire mon ami.

If the 8th is repealed there will be no legal protection for the unborn, so an abortion could take place an hour before birth that would be fully legal. Unless you can show me where it would not be so?

If the legislation you linked was sufficient, then why is there still a discussion on cabinet level to the 'what happens after'.

Also, the supreme court ruling was pretty strong on this, that the unborn would have no constitutional rights once the 8th was repealed.

Please. You are embarrassing yourself at this stage. You are making up things that are untrue and EXTREME scaremongering.

If the 8th amendment gets repealed nothing effectively changes there and then in terms of where we legally stand.

Abortion is still prohibited under the Offences Against The Person Act 1861
Limited abortion is allowed for under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.

an abortion could take place an hour before birth that would be fully legal

This is a lie. It simply could not legally happen. The 1861 Act is still in place. Stop making things up. Just stop.

david75

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Please. You are embarrassing yourself at this stage. You are making up things that are untrue and EXTREME scaremongering.

If the 8th amendment gets repealed nothing effectively changes there and then in terms of where we legally stand.

Abortion is still prohibited under the Offences Against The Person Act 1861
Limited abortion is allowed for under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.



This is a lie. It simply could not legally happen. The 1861 Act is still in place. Stop making things up. Just stop.

The ‘au contraire mon ami’ really sets it off.