The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

erica74

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

erica74 -this is your own opinion or quoted from someone else, or a website?

What? It's my own opinion, that's why I started it by saying "I think"...?

Outlaw Pete

DubInMeath wrote: »

A twelve week fetus is not a baby or a child.

Of course a fetus is a baby. It's a developing human being and when a woman gives birth prematurely, at say 22 weeks, it will be called a baby as it lies in that incubator. If a woman miscarries, she will generally say she has lost her baby. Not sure why the prochoice take such umbrage at the a word that we even use to call small underdeveloped carrots. Wouldn't be because it brings home just what an abortion entails now would it. If you want to call it a fetus, work away. Only crap I object to is the "blobs of biological matter" and "clumps of cells" nonsense.

The attitude of the the pro life movement towards denying a person making their own choices is unfathomable and frightening.

But YOU want to make it legal to deny the baby in the womb the right to continue on with their life. That's unfathomable and frightening to me. A developing human baby at it's most vulnerable and you think it should be okay to just kill it. Can't you see how that is denying someone their life, a life which has so obviously begun? Or are you trying to tell me that this twins lives (for example) haven't begun?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOaN84CGrGk

Anyone who does wish to have an abortion isn't going to forced to have one....

And anyone that does not wish to abuse a child isn't forced to do so, but that doesn't mean we should make it legal.

..the pro life side don't think that forcing women to carry to term isn't an issue.

So you think women should be able to kill the babies they are carrying at ANY stage of their pregnancy?? Even the week of delivery?? Come on, that's crazy.

Now, if you wouldn't support abortions at that stage, can I ask you why you think that "forcing women to carry to term isn't an issue"?

robarmstrong

Nasir Fancy Slipknot wrote: »

And what, precisely, are you wondering about the fathers? Let's get specific here. Cut out the shorthand and get to basics.

You are aware that fathers have accompanied their wives/partners to the UK for abortions, no doubt.

What if the father is a rapist? You still haven't addressed this from the first thread.

Many abortions are for very sound reasons beyond your perception that the pregnancy is an inconvenience to the mother.

Do you honestly think any mother doesn't think long and hard before going the route of an abortion?

The lack of compassion towards women reminds me of the attitude of many nuns towards all pregnant women decades ago.


I think this thread is beyond useless at this stage. The same old platitudes and a reluctance to respond to simple questions.

Nobody, on either side of the debate, is going to change their minds based on this 'discussion' and I pity any "Don't know" looking for guidance,

You're not going to get a response. She's going to continue to post that stuff free-reign and cherry pick her answers to continue to cause more outrage rather than just someone stepping up and threadbanning her. Ridiculous that they can run, cherrypick, offend, and then run behind mods and admins when they feel "oppressed".

The thread needs impartial views to look at the posting patterns of certain users and just throw them out of here. If someone is posting the same drivel and avoiding any reasonable or meaningful discussion it's blatantly obvious what they're doing is just to rile up others, yet because it's AH they're allowed to keep it up.

This thread will fail because it's the same crap from certain posters making outrageous statements with no back-up, no substance, and no repercussions.

Letting them carry on the way they are is absolutely destroying any chance of an intelligent, reasonable and beneficial discussion.

Cally Caleigh

erica74 wrote:

I think every woman should have the option to have an abortion at any stage of her pregnancy.

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

Seeing as your post is getting multiple thanks, do others agree on this position?

To clarify my own position, I'm not against voting for repealing the 8th, but have some genuine concerns about legalizing abortion outside of threats to mothers life and fatal fetal.

amdublin

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

But YOU want to make it legal to deny the baby in the womb

So you think women should be able to kill the babies they are carrying at ANY stage of their pregnancy?? Even the week of delivery?? Come on, that's crazy.

Now, if you wouldn't support abortions at that stage, can I ask you why you think that "forcing women to carry to term isn't an issue"?

**NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING BABIES AT WEEK OF DELIVERY**

If a woman does not want to be pregnant at eg. 36 weeks or 37 weeks then labour is induced and delivery happens.
For example in the case of FFA

Someone more expert than me might please come along and inform does this happen foe example in the UK currently?

I repeat though. No one is killing babies at 38 weeks
The abortion is a termination of the pregnancy not termination of the baby.
Sweet jesus.

January

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

Yes abort the pregnancy.

Simi

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

It has been pointed out to you half a dozen times above that a late term abortion does not involve killing the child, rather an early delivery. You're just being ridiculous at this stage.

david75

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

Pretty sure that isn’t being allowed or legislated for in the upcoming replacement legislation. It’s not even being talked about except by pro lifers. It’s not an option available afaik

robarmstrong

amdublin wrote: »

**NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT KILLING BABIES AT WEEK OF DELIVERY**

If a woman does not want to be pregnant at eg. 36 weeks or 37 weeks then labour is induced and delivery happens.
For example in the case of FFA

Someone more expert than me might please come along and inform does this happen foe example in the UK currently?

I repeat though. No one is killing babies at 38 weeks

You are not allowed undertake an abortion after 24 weeks in the UK unless it's in extreme circumstances.

eviltwin

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

If we put this in big letters will it finally sink in?

There will be no provision for late term abortions under the proposed legislation.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

mzungu

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

In your mind, and that of others, perhaps, but it most certainly has not been rebutted.

TBH, when I heard the Downs Syndrome genocide spiel a while back I was concerned. Then I had a look into it and found it to be full of emotion but lacking any evidence. As a TL;DR for the rest of this post, a foetus being aborted does not equate to a genocide.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Peter Boylan lied and he should not have been given as much time on our ariways as he has been. It's a disgrace. Have any prolife medical professionals (of which there are some) been given the time he has? Not a hope. I wouldn't mind so much if he took an objective stance but he clearly has a prochoice agenda given the misinformation he regularly puts out.

Firstly, Peter Boylan is not a liar, he gave his medical opinion. Secondly, if pro-life doctors wish to have air time, they can have it. Same as all TV and radio panels will always have representatives of both groups. Every time there is a debate, both sides are slugging it out. To say pro-life views are not represented in the media is not true.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

He claims that it would be "virtually impossible" for a woman, under the proposed legislation, to be able to undergo testing in time to have an abortion based on the results, and that is an outright lie (of which is fully aware by the way). Testing can be done at 10 weeks gestational age (8 weeks fetal) and the results can be back as early as one week (blood goes to the lab the same day it is drawn). You don't have to be a mathematician to see that it would be far from "virtually impossible" to decide to have an abortion based on the results of such a test in a country which allowed abortion up to 12 weeks. Is it any wonder that the prochoice movement are seen as they are when they behave in this underhand way. Tell the truth and stop the nonsense.

Hold up, here is what Boylan said:

Peter Boylan wrote:

Dr Boylan, former master of the National Maternity Hospital, says diagnosis of Down syndrome involves a three-stage process.

First, a scan must be performed to determine gestation. Second, a blood test must be taken between nine and 11 weeks to analyse free foetal DNA in the mother’s bloodstream.

This test costs more than €500 and is not available to public patients as it is not funded by the State. The test is not available in every hospital and a woman would have to formally request it.

Results take two weeks to be returned as there is no test facility in Ireland and samples must be sent for analysis to the UK or the United States. These tests are indicative and are not 100 per cent reliable.

If an abnormality is suggested, a third, confirmatory stage is required.

The man has given his medical opinion, he is not a liar.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Let's not forget, In the England & Wales, 90% of pregnancies with prenatally diagnosed Down syndrome are terminated. There is no reason to think that Irish women would not look to do similar and given that we would have a 12 week window

Prenatally being the operative word here. It makes no mention of post natal. People with downs syndrome are not being systematically wiped out. Is there any difference in abortion with or without downs syndrome? Not in my view. It still comes down to a choice.

Outlaw Pete wrote:

Not too expensive either. Getting cheaper and cheaper to take part in the Down Syndrome genocide.

It will never equate to a genocide, though, no more than cases of abortion where no downs syndrome is present would equate to some other form of genocide.

amdublin

robarmstrong wrote: »

You are not allowed undertake an abortion after 24 weeks in the UK unless it's in extreme circumstances.

Thanks for the clarification

Martina1991

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Of course a fetus is a baby. It's a developing human being and when a woman gives birth prematurely, at say 22 weeks, it will be called a baby as it lies in that incubator. If a woman miscarries, she will generally say she has lost her baby. Not sure why the prochoice take such umbrage at the a word that we even use to call small underdeveloped carrots.

But YOU want to make it legal to deny the baby in the womb the right to continue on with their life. That's unfathomable and frightening to me. A developing human baby at it's most vulnerable and you think it should be okay to just kill it. Can't you see how that is denying someone their life, a life which has so obviously begun? Or are you trying to tell me that this twins lives (for example) haven't begun?

So you think women should be able to kill the babies they are carrying at ANY stage of their pregnancy?? Even the week of delivery?? Come on, that's crazy.

Now, if you wouldn't support abortions at that stage, can I ask you why you think that "forcing women to carry to term isn't an issue"?

1. Key word being developing. It is not a viable human at <12 weeks.

2. I think its unfathomable and frighting that you think a woman should be FORCED to carry out a pregnancy that she is not physically, or emotionally able to carry. You want women to risk their lives for a fetus the size of a plum.

3. Using youtube videos like that is just a deflective tactic pro-life people use to manipulate peoples emotions and make it look like a fully formed human baby when it is not.

sean635

Abortion for any reason other than to save the life of the mother is a crime against humanity. The mothers convenience, socio-economic circumstances or FEELINGS should never supersede another human beings right to life.

I’m open to having my mind changed by anyone that can make a convincing arguement for repealing the Eight.

Regards

erica74

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

Seeing as your post is getting multiple thanks, do others agree on this position?

To clarify my own position, I'm not against voting for repealing the 8th, but have some genuine concerns about legalizing outside of threats to mothers life and fatal fetal.

Yes, I do think any woman should have the choice to have an abortion at any stage. I've literally said that 3 times now.
Late term abortions make up a TINY percentage of abortions carried out in the UK and unfortunately are quite often a consequence of a serious medical issue for either the woman or the baby.

However, THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION WILL BE TO ALLOW ABORTION FOR ANY REASON UP TO 12 WEEKS. Can we concentrate on what is actually going to happen here?

Annasopra

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

Advocating such legislation would mean if a woman wanted to abort her 38 or 39 week pregnancy.. I don't know. I'm lost for words. You think it should be legal to abort a 39 week pregnancy? I know that statistically in the UK the vast majority of abortions are done before 24 weeks. But even an exception to the statistics, even 1 woman deciding at 39 weeks (maybe a major life event, job loss, etc happened around that time). You agree she should have the choice to abort?

Seeing as your post is getting multiple thanks, do others agree on this position?

To clarify my own position, I'm not against voting for repealing the 8th, but have some genuine concerns about legalizing abortion outside of threats to mothers life and fatal fetal.

This nonsense about 39 week abortions is just utter scaremongering.

We have had this many many many times now on boards.ie "I'm in favour of repeal but..." - It seems like an organised subvertive tactic now at this stage.

robarmstrong

sean635 wrote: »

Abortion for any reason other than to save the life of the mother is a crime against humanity. The mothers convenience, socio-economic circumstances or FEELINGS should never supersede another human beings right to life.

I’m open to having my mind changed by anyone that can make a convincing arguement for repealing the Eight.

Regards

Oh lovely, a new person.

Do you think that a woman who has fallen pregnant due to rape should be forced to carry that pregnancy full term just because you don't agree with abortion?

Cally Caleigh

eviltwin wrote: »

If we put this in big letters will it finally sink in?

There will be no provision for late term abortions under the proposed legislation.

I get it, no need for the sarcastic comments. I'm trying to focus on the point without resorting to rudeness and would appreciate if you offered me the same respect.

I'm looking for information and different opinions to help make my decision but seem to get abuse like above when any hint of concern about repealing the 8th is offered.

So back on topic, if pregnancy is induced if a woman wants to abort at 38 weeks, at what stage (take the UK for reference) is the fetus terminated? Anything before 25 weeks? So from 0-24 weeks in the UK, no live child is born. From 25 weeks to full term, a live child is born. Is that correct?

erica74

sean635 wrote: »

Abortion for any reason other than to save the life of the mother is a crime against humanity. The mothers convenience, socio-economic circumstances or FEELINGS should never supersede another human beings right to life.

I’m open to having my mind changed by anyone that can make a convincing arguement for repealing the Eight.

Regards

Ah sure that's grand so, women should be having babies that they can't afford financially and can't support emotionally. Sounds great.

Outlaw Pete

mzungu wrote: »

Hold up, here is what Boylan said:

I quoted him accurately based on this clip:

https://twitter.com/RTENewsAtOne/status/957983827288363008

sean635

sean635 wrote: »

Abortion for any reason other than to save the life of the mother is a crime against humanity. The mothers convenience, socio-economic circumstances or FEELINGS should never supersede another human beings right to life.

I’m open to having my mind changed by anyone that can make a convincing arguement for repealing the Eight.

Regards

If that's the case then why do most countries in the developed world allow abortion? The majority of people in those countries are pro-choice. Do you really think they're all evil monsters?

Why are so many ordinary decent people ok with abortion?

sean635

robarmstrong wrote: »

Oh lovely, a new person.

Do you think that a woman who has fallen pregnant due to rape should be forced to carry that pregnancy full term just because you don't agree with abortion?

Yes, I do.
The value of the baby’s life and the circumstances of the conception are completely separate issues. Although rape is terrible, the foetus did not force it’self on the woman. Therefore I think it’s as immoral as any other abortion case.

Also I would never force a woman to carry a pregnancy. I would simply prohibit her from killing the baby. I believe it’s the rapist who has forced her to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want.

robarmstrong

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

I get it, no need for the sarcastic comments. I'm trying to focus on the point without resorting to rudeness and would appreciate if you offered me the same respect.

I'm looking for information and different opinions to help make my decision but seem to get abuse like above when any hint of concern about repealing the 8th is offered.

So if pregnancy is induced if a woman wants to abort at 38 weeks, at what stage (take the UK for reference) is the fetus terminated? Anything before 25 weeks? So from 0-24 weeks in the UK, no live child is born. From 25 weeks to full term, a live child is born. Is that correct?

I'm going to be brutally honest here.

I don't think anyone here can provide you with that insight. I would be under the assumption that the baby would be terminated (however this is just an assumption, not a fact!) if an abortion is performed in the time frame you have mentioned. I would however imagine it is a discussion in the "application" for the abortion after the cut-off point, if that makes sense?

I'm not going to feed you nonsense to sway you to vote to repeal, but we don't have the answers to everything, maybe in the coming weeks people who have undergone those kind of abortions could shed some light but other than that, who knows?

robarmstrong

sean635 wrote: »

Also I would never force a woman to carry a pregnancy. I would simply prohibit her from killing the baby. I believe it’s the rapist who has forced her to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want.

So you wouldn't force her to carry the pregnancy... But you'd prohibit her from killing the baby.

So you'd force her to keep the pregnancy basically.

Thanks for that, only well and truly shot yourself in the foot there mate.

Also by voting to save the 8th you are effectively forcing her to keep that pregnancy.

Wanna try again?

sean635

erica74 wrote: »

Ah sure that's grand so, women should be having babies that they can't afford financially and can't support emotionally. Sounds great.

What you’ve just described doesn’t great. But you know what sounds worse? Killing the baby.
Adoption is also an alternative to what you’ve just described

Cally Caleigh

Flying Fox wrote: »

If that's the case then why do most countries in the developed world allow abortion? The majority of people in those countries are pro-choice. Do you really think they're all evil monsters?

Why are so many ordinary decent people ok with abortion?

Ireland is unique in the sense of requiring a public vote to amend our constitution. Would certainly be interesting to see the results if every country with legalized abortion today was offered the chance to vote.

Cally Caleigh

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

I get it, no need for the sarcastic comments. I'm trying to focus on the point without resorting to rudeness and would appreciate if you offered me the same respect.

I'm looking for information and different opinions to help make my decision but seem to get abuse like above when any hint of concern about repealing the 8th is offered.

So back on topic, if pregnancy is induced if a woman wants to abort at 38 weeks, at what stage (take the UK for reference) is the fetus terminated? Anything before 25 weeks? So from 0-24 weeks in the UK, no live child is born. From 25 weeks to full term, a live child is born. Is that correct?

Anything past 12 weeks isn't relevant to the discussion in Ireland though. We're not going to have the UK system. If repeal is passed we will fall in line with the majority of European countries that allow abortion in the first trimester.

sean635

sean635 wrote: »

What you’ve just described doesn’t great. But you know what sounds worse? Killing the baby.
Adoption is also an alternative to what you’ve just described

Nobody is killing a baby though. Why do you think they are?

erica74

Cally Caleigh wrote: »

I get it, no need for the sarcastic comments. I'm trying to focus on the point without resorting to rudeness and would appreciate if you offered me the same respect.

I'm looking for information and different opinions to help make my decision but seem to get abuse like above when any hint of concern about repealing the 8th is offered.

So if pregnancy is induced if a woman wants to abort at 38 weeks, at what stage (take the UK for reference) is the fetus terminated? Anything before 25 weeks? So from 0-24 weeks in the UK, no live child is born. From 25 weeks to full term, a live child is born. Is that correct?

You've asked for the same thing to be clarified 2 or 3 times, it gets tiresome. Nobody is abusing you, there's no need for the dramatics.

All of that information is available through a quick Google search.
There is very helpful information available here - https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/report-on-abortion-statistics-in-england-and-wales-for-2016 - and here https://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics. Have a look through both websites and I'm sure you'll find some answers.

Outlaw Pete

The abuse of the thanks function on this thread is a disgrace.

How can this post get a line of thanks when I said nothing of the sort:

DubInMeath wrote: »

So your fine with people who were raped etc being forced to carry to term. Thanks for clarifying.

Link to where I said that please? Again:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I have lots of compassion. I agree that all forms of therapeutic abortions should be available to women.