The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Annasopra

Edward M wrote: »

But will that not just bring the banned poster back as another re reg?

I dont understand your point. I said it is understandable that posters would get annoyed and report due to the large number of rereg accounts, trolls, shills and accounts that claim to support repeal while undermining it.

erica74

NuMarvel wrote: »

He goes into that in a bit more detail in the article. As he sees it, viability is "the point in a pregnancy at which, in the reasonable opinion of a medical practitioner, the foetus is capable of sustained survival outside the uterus" He also talks about what doctors would consider in making their decisions on a case by case basis, in consultation with the woman.



I don't think a 25 week term limit was mentioned before. The Assembly supported up to 22 weeks for health grounds, and the Committee didn't include term limits in their recommendations, saying it could be decided in consultation with best medical practice when legislation was being drafted.

Ah thanks, it must have been the 22 weeks I was thinking of. So does that mean we may get up to 22 weeks for the health of the woman or baby?

Annasopra

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Before you start crying bias, the mod in question has banned people from both sides of the discussion.

Exactly. This narrative of pro choice people bullied off the thread is just laughable nonsense.

nozzferrahhtoo

applehunter wrote: »

I think a lot of the talk/words deflects from the reality of what abortion actually is.

Yes! It does! Words like "baby" and "unborn child" and "murder" are very much in the business of deflecting the reality of what abortion actually is.

Because what abortion actually is, is the termination of a fetus a significant period of time before it attains any of the attributes that meaningfully and justifiably anchor our moral and ethical concern, and concept of "rights".

So distracting from what "abortion actually is" is very much the main and often sole MO of the anti choice speaker. And we very much should resist that. Not just to the benefit of those who should have the right to seek abortion, but also those affected by the fall out of such narratives. Such as women suffering needlessly elevated levels of grief and suffering in the face of a miscarriage for example.

These false narratives and deflections are harmful, both in AND out of the context of abortion. And we very much should call out these deflections, and those peddling them, as the blood of such needless suffering is very much on their hands. And clearly they do not have the capacity to feel the shame they very much should feel in light of that.

NuMarvel

erica74 wrote: »

Ah thanks, it must have been the 22 weeks I was thinking of. So does that mean we may get up to 22 weeks for the health of the woman or baby?

I think 22 weeks is what it will be in practice, but in the legislation, the term limit will be viability.

This has some similarity to the Netherlands, where the on request model allows abortions up to viability, but in practice most doctors don't carry them out after 22 weeks. Obviously, our health grounds would be far more stringent than their on request model (and I'm only saying that to make sure anti-repeal posters don't twist my words to say I'm equating the two).

BTW, I should add that in regards to the unborn, it looks like there's no term limit where it's a fatal abnormality (i.e. likely to cause death before or shortly after birth). This is similar to most other countries, because in many cases these conditions are diagnosed after viability. If a FFA is diagnosed the woman will have the choice of terminating the pregnancy, or continuing it to term, as decided by the woman and her doctors.

January

erica74 wrote: »

Ah thanks, it must have been the 22 weeks I was thinking of. So does that mean we may get up to 22 weeks for the health of the woman or baby?

Risk or threat to the health/life of the mother will still be catered for outside of viability it will result in termination of pregnancy, where a birth takes place and baby is treated accordingly if they are still premature.

seamus

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think 22 weeks is what it will be in practice, but in the legislation, the term limit will be viability.

This has some similarity to the Netherlands, where the on request model allows abortions up to viability, but in practice most doctors don't carry them out after 22 weeks. Obviously, our health grounds would be far more stringent than their on request model (and I'm only saying that to make sure anti-repeal posters don't twist my words to say I'm equating the two).

BTW, I should add that in regards to the unborn, it looks like there's no term limit where it's a fatal abnormality (i.e. likely to cause death before or shortly after birth). This is similar to most other countries, because in many cases these conditions are diagnosed after viability. If a FFA is diagnosed the woman will have the choice of terminating the pregnancy, or continuing it to term, as decided by the woman and her doctors.

The "health of the woman or baby" grounds will likely be unlimited in scope. It doesn't make sense that a woman at 22 weeks with a serious condition can get a termination, but a woman at 28 weeks the same serious condition, can't.

The main difference is that medical professionals will be legally bound to provide life-saving care to a foetus beyond viability, but it will be a call for the doctor to make before that.

Foetuses will not be "killed" or "euthanised" before the procedure.

david75

I didn’t know this

It's important to remember that a foetus lacks the neuro-anatomical architecture to feel pain until around the 26th week of development. Worldwide, the usual cut-off point for abortion is 24 weeks.

For much of its history, the Catholic Church taught that a foetus only becomes a person when infused with a soul at ‘quickening’ – when the mother feels the child moving in the womb. In 1591, Pope Gregory XIV decreed that quickening occurs at 166 days, or almost 24 weeks.

In an ideal world, there would never be a need for abortion. In an ideal world, every pregnancy would be desperately wanted and every yearned-for baby would thrive from conception. Sadly, though, we don’t live in an ideal world.

Sofiztikated

applehunter wrote: »

I think a lot of the talk/words deflects from the reality of what abortion actually is.

The ones that make light of the situation, and claim that people will be running around, having 2 abortions a day, and claiming pregnancies are a mere inconvenience is the PLC.

Some of the people here have been through pregnancies, easy and hard ones, have been through miscarriage, have been through abortions, and can still separate emotion from logic and reasoning.

david75

Edward M wrote: »

Personally, I've never reported a post, let them say what they like, if its stupid it shows and actually weakens their argument.
There have been accusations of ganging up on posters on here already, just a few posts ago one choice poster said to another, I'll report this post, will you do it too.
Its funny to look at others throwing hizzy fits over certain posts, I always think my truth surely isn't theirs and leave it at that.

To be fair that poster was going in circles and derailing debate as much as possible. And further, earlier in the thread we had a self proclaimed ‘national socialist’ who was a Nazi enthusiast by the looks of the links he gave us.
It’s hard to have an open debate or discussion when people come in with such an extreme agenda and refuse to listen. Really good contributiors to the thread have been banned from the thread for reacting to these people. They were looking for that reaction too.
So following several reminders from mods, if we think someone is trolling or a re reg, report them rather than engaging and reacting to them.

That is appropriate action rather than allowing them hijack the discussion by goin in circles arguing with them.

kylith

Sofiztikated wrote: »

The ones that make light of the situation, and claim that people will be running around, having 2 abortions a day, and claiming pregnancies are a mere inconvenience is the PLC.

Some of the people here have been through pregnancies, easy and hard ones, have been through miscarriage, have been through abortions, and can still separate emotion from logic and reasoning.

I am currently pregnant. I went for my 12 week scan this week and I’m not ashamed to say that I cried when I saw my baby on the screen, wriggling about the place.

And i’m still pro-choice.

I want this baby, and I have wanted a baby for years. But if everything goes pear shaped it is horrifying to that my country doesn’t have my back.

When my OH asked what I was nervous about I could see his expression change when I said ‘that something will be wrong and there will be nothing they can do because it still has a faint heartbeat and i’ll have to keep going back for scan after scan to check if it’s dead yet because we can’t afford to go to the UK’.

I shouldn’t have to worry about this kind of thing. NO woman should have to worry about this. We should be able to have confidence that ‘something is badly wrong’ will be followed by ‘these are the options you have’, and to actually have options other than ‘nothing’ or ‘England’.

Hooks Golf Handicap

What gets me about the pro-life side is the complete lack of acknowledgement that abortions are happening everyday in Ireland by women procuring the 2 pills from Holland.

Their victory will only secure that unsafe medical practice becomes the norm.

Surely they can see the wood from the trees or do they like to pretend it doesn't go on.

david75

Even in the Seanad the pro lifers aren’t afraid of warping the truth out of all shape. (She’s changed it from 20 weeks to 26 weeks having previously spoken at the life institute stating 22 weeks). Selective memory or just lying. It would be a totally new record if the baby was born weighing 3lbs at 20 weeks. She has since ‘clarified’ her statement. Eyeroll

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/978760062939402240?s=21

whatdoicare

https://www.limerickpost.ie/2018/03/28/abortion-survivor-to-address-limerick-rally-on-april-6th/

Limerick prolifers are shipping in American "abortion survivors" to tell us all about how its totally normal and safe for 13 year olds to have babies and all about adoption, ignoring the fact that adoption barely happens here and a 13 year old could die having a baby.

Yeah_Right

david75 wrote: »

To be fair that poster was going in circles and derailing debate as much as possible. And further, earlier in the thread we had a self proclaimed ‘national socialist’ who was a Nazi enthusiast by the looks of the links he gave us.
It’s hard to have an open debate or discussion when people come in with such an extreme agenda and refuse to listen. Really good contributiors to the thread have been banned from the thread for reacting to these people. They were looking for that reaction too.
So following several reminders from mods, if we think someone is trolling or a re reg, report them rather than engaging and reacting to them.

That is appropriate action rather than allowing them hijack the discussion by goin in circles arguing with them.

I hate seeing posters banned. Even for abuse. The way I see it is its the internet, don't get upset. If someone is resorting to name calling then their argument lacks merit. I got called a murderer earlier, a double murderer in fact. And I don't care. If that's what someone thinks of me, cool. They can judge away. I wouldn't report them for it.

There was a poster earlier who got upset because others called BS on his anecdote and accused him of hypocrisy. I mean, seriously. Too much emotion.

I realise that some posters don't engage and simply repeat the same thing over and over again and that can be frustrating for those that actually want to discuss the issue. Their posts/arguments are usually torn to shreds quickly and frequently and I like to think it must be embarrassing for them to keep coming back simply to get their arse handed to them again and again.

I do understand that there are standards to be maintained here and that by getting rid of some of the posts/posters it helps the discussion and keeps it moving. I like hearing both sides of an argument. Sometimes it confirms my opinion, other times it helps me form an opinion and occasionally it changes my opinion. I just hate the idea that people might mistakenly think they are being silenced because of their opinion rather than their style.

Also I'm very suspicious of the Mods on here. We all know they are power hungry, wannabe Donald Trumps, willing to ban anyone who disagrees with them I'm watching you!!

NuMarvel

There's a brilliant FAQ from the Institute of Obstetricians here. It does an excellent job of addressing some of the most common questions.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Edward M

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Good for you, I've only reported the ones with personal abuse. However, I can also acknowledge that the poster was dragging down the standard of the thread, whilst contributing nothing and not engaging in discussion. Posters who have done that in other threads on other topics have been banned from the thread for doing it too. It's nothing to do with his stance on the referendum and I would hope that if someone on the pro-repeal side was posting in the same manner, they would also be removed. You can report away at posts, but that doesn't mean there will be a mod action against them. In this case, the poster was deemed to be not contributing to the point of trolling. Maybe not a troll in himself, but 50 posts of soundbite and no discussion is a bit much, to the point of being considered against Boards standards, which I think is fair.

Before you start crying bias, the mod in question has banned people from both sides of the discussion.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to the mods decision, it was the earlier call for someone else to report also.
That poster has since replied elsewhere, I accept their explanation as I do yours, I was just making the point of the call being made for others to report also.
As for myself, I'll trundle along, post what you like, I'll read and evaluate for myself, I'll let the mods do the same.
I won't be asking for any sanctions, even against the most mundane, nor publicly denouncing any decisions mods make either.

david75

Government will later today confirm the referendum on the Eighth Amendment will take place on May 25th.

Pherekydes

david75 wrote: »

Even in the Seanad the pro lifers aren’t afraid of warping the truth out of all shape. (She’s changed it from 20 weeks to 26 weeks having previously spoken at the life institute stating 22 weeks). Selective memory or just lying. It would be a totally new record if the baby was born weighing 3lbs at 20 weeks. She has since ‘clarified’ her statement. Eyeroll

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/978760062939402240?s=21

Average weight for a 20 week fetus is about 10-11 oz, not 48.

Hooks Golf Handicap

I'm very surprised with the poll above in comparison to the more even spread on this thread.

I've noticed a lot of people , like my wife, who is voting to Repeal but unlike the Equality referendum she's keeping her mouth shut.
The only action she's promised is to tear down Iona style posters which will undoubtedly show a chopped up 18 week aborted fetus when they begin to panic closer to the vote.

Zubeneschamali

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of people , like my wife, who is voting to Repeal but unlike the Equality referendum she's keeping her mouth shut.

Like your wife, I'll vote ( and talk here anonymously), but I would be slow in real life to wade into an abortion argument. I am not sure it would be safe.

david75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Like your wife, I'll vote ( and talk here anonymously), but I would be slow in real life to wade into an abortion argument. I am not sure it would be safe.

Even with (or perhaps especially) with family or close friends it can be suddenly explosive. I’ve been alarmed to find out where some family and friends stand on this. Some of them with the worst most extreme mindsets, all based on lies and misinformation they’ve read and some just from being from a different time and mindset.

That old civil war cliche about brother against brother applies.

ProfessorPlum

Pherekydes wrote: »

Average weight for a 20 week fetus is about 10-11 oz, not 48.

......average life expectancy for a 20 week foetus is zero.

Given that the senator has ‘done the maths’ (ie she asserts is her baby was born 8 weeks on from the 20 weeks), I can only assume she is very confused about either how premature her baby was or how the whole pregnancy thing works. Which for a mother of 4 is surprising.

Genuinely can’t figure this ‘slip’ out.

david75

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

......average life expectancy for a 20 week foetus is zero.

Given that the senator has ‘done the maths’ (ie she asserts is her baby was born 8 weeks on from the 20 weeks), I can only assume she is very confused about either how premature her baby was or how the whole pregnancy thing works. Which for a mother of 4 is surprising.

Genuinely can’t figure this ‘slip’ out.

Bear in mind she’s given three different time frames on three different occasions.

It wasn’t a slip. It was a lie. It was a slip only in that a liar needs a good memory.

To lie in the senate though?? On record??


She’s sheep spinning on twitter and Facebook trying to clarify her remarks.

Translation-more lies and bull**** from pro life. But in the senate this time.

garbo speaks

I really hope the referendum is defeated so I sit back and watch the leftist loonies meltdown on Twitter; it will be up there with the leftist fallout after Trump was elected.

david75

garbo speaks wrote: »

I really hope the referendum is defeated so I sit back and watch the leftist loonies meltdown on Twitter; it will be up there with the leftist fallout after Trump was elected.

Cool. I’m not leftist and don’t even know what that means but I’ll call you morning of the ballot count and we can squuueeee over the result together if you like?

January

I feel ill. 25th of May confirmed. Let's do this.

kylith

garbo speaks wrote: »

I really hope the referendum is defeated so I sit back and watch the leftist loonies meltdown on Twitter; it will be up there with the leftist fallout after Trump was elected.

"Hooray, women being denied proper medical care!1!"

:rolleyes:

amdublin

January wrote: »

I feel ill. 25th of May confirmed. Let's do this.

I hear you.

I just want it to be over and passed. I won't be celebrating, life will just go on.

If it doesn't pass though, while life will go on, I will be devastated absolutely devastated.

The personal experiences told on the In Her Shoes...that we will continue forcing our women to travel to access medical care it's wrong.