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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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    #2522
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    67/33


    Wouldn't it be great if that was reversed.

    But I don't care, I will take 51/49 (for repeal)


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    #2523
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    January wrote: »
    I think the turnout will be higher.
    I think so, but democratic engagement in general seems to be pretty poor at the moment. The marriage equality referendum still only managed 60% turnout on the back of what was apparently a huge campaign.

    What gives me hope is that the 1992 referenda saw the biggest turnouts in modern times and comprehensively voted in a pro-choice direction. And that was 26 years ago.


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    #2524
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #2525
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    Once a woman hits 21 plus, we are always at the doctor for "womens" problems. Company can't ask why you are going.


    .
    No, they can’t ask why you’re going but people still talk and some offices are gossip mills.

    And i’m sorry for your troubles but ‘we’ women are not ‘always’ at the doctor with ‘women’s’ problems. Barring the annual smear my bits don’t necessitate any doctor visits.


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    #2526
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    kylith wrote: »
    No, they can’t ask why you’re going but people still talk and some offices are gossip mills.

    And i’m sorry for your troubles but ‘we’ women are not ‘always’ at the doctor with ‘women’s’ problems. Barring the annual smear my bits don’t necessitate any doctor visits.

    I'm a woman - but you are probably younger than me - when you are older and have had children, you are often at smear tests, breast checks, I'm a diabetic so 6 mthly diabetic nurse checks, flu injection and thats 5 appointments if I never get sick during the year again.

    I wasn't trying to make a sarky comment about "the little women" - I was just trying to say that there are absolutely loads of reasons women attend GPs, not just for termination information and pills.

    Anyway I've moved on from my initial comment on this as January rightly points out there are other obstructions to just "nipping out to the GP".


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    #2527
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    I'm a woman - but you are probably younger than me - when you are older and have had children, you are often at smear tests, breast checks, I'm a diabetic so 6 mthly diabetic nurse checks, flu injection and thats 5 appointments if I never get sick during the year again.

    I wasn't trying to make a sarky comment about "the little women" - I was just trying to say that there are absolutely loads of reasons women attend GPs, not just for termination information and pills.

    Anyway I've moved on from my initial comment on this as January rightly points out there are other obstructions to just "nipping out to the GP".

    Sméar tests are only every three years. I've 4 kids and I'm only at the doctor very rarely.


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    #2528
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,741 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    January wrote: »
    Sméar tests are only every three years. I've 4 kids and I'm only at the doctor very rarely.

    Depends on your medical history - that was exactly the point I was trying to make in the initial post - people are at the GPs for a range of things, all the time, when I younger than 35 I never went near a GP, now its different.

    Anyway, I think Repeal will happen and then anything above that is for the person to work out as best they can.


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    #2529
    TerryDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭TerryDublin


    I feel the Government have not fully represented my view. I always planned to vote for repeal as I don't want any woman who needs an abortion unable to have one. But I am against abortion otherwise so what do I vote.

    My sons fiance is pregnant and we all watched her first scan on DVD. So excited all of us. How could I vote for laws that would mean she could end their babys life. My grandchilds life. I know its so young so small but its still living you know. If she would want to do such a thing I would want her helped with why she would want to do this. If it was finance or fear of not coping. Help with these.

    All around me my friends work people seem to be caught up in this but only from the view of the woman and her rights reproductive. The baby seems to be lost in all of this. Forgotten. Women have so much help with difficulties they face and I am happy for this but why is stopping the baby to live further seen so insignificant. I hope I am wrong and I can vote for repeal but not abortion as birth control only abnormalities rape etc.


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    #2530
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,467 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    I feel the Government have not fully represented my view. I always planned to vote for repeal as I don't want any woman who needs an abortion unable to have one. But I am against abortion otherwise so what do I vote.

    My sons fiance is pregnant and we all watched her first scan on DVD. So excited all of us. How could I vote for laws that would mean she could end their babys life. My grandchilds life. I know its so young so small but its still living you know. If she would want to do such a thing I would want her helped with why she would want to do this. If it was finance or fear of not coping. Help with these.

    All around me my friends work people seem to be caught up in this but only from the view of the woman and her rights reproductive. The baby seems to be lost in all of this. Forgotten. Women have so much help with difficulties they face and I am happy for this but why is stopping the baby to live further seen so insignificant. I hope I am wrong and I can vote for repeal but not abortion as birth control only abnormalities rape etc.


    Its all well and good that in this situation the woman does have support. what if she didnt? do you think she should be forced to continue the pregnancy or take a plane to england at the risk of her health?


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    #2531
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Berserker wrote: »
    I agree with you but the 'Yes' campaign has a problem with this. The more complexity you add to a referendum, the less likely it is to pass and people seem to be adding an awful lot of extras. .

    No - the referendum is very simple: repeal the 8th yes/no.

    The complexity is in the legislation to follow.

    The fact that legislation which is fit for purpose is complicated is a sign that we cannot do it in the constitution.


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    #2532
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #2533
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Nettle Soup wrote: »
    No = 33.10%

    Made up of 416,135 other people plus me for a total of 416,136.


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    #2534
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    I feel the Government have not fully represented my view. I always planned to vote for repeal as I don't want any woman who needs an abortion unable to have one. But I am against abortion otherwise so what do I vote.

    My sons fiance is pregnant and we all watched her first scan on DVD. So excited all of us. How could I vote for laws that would mean she could end their babys life. My grandchilds life. I know its so young so small but its still living you know. If she would want to do such a thing I would want her helped with why she would want to do this. If it was finance or fear of not coping. Help with these.

    All around me my friends work people seem to be caught up in this but only from the view of the woman and her rights reproductive. The baby seems to be lost in all of this. Forgotten. Women have so much help with difficulties they face and I am happy for this but why is stopping the baby to live further seen so insignificant. I hope I am wrong and I can vote for repeal but not abortion as birth control only abnormalities rape etc.

    What if ( & I hope it never happens) the baby stops growing? What if they find out it has such enormous health problems that it will die before birth or shortly afterwards, screaming in agony.
    What if the hospital tell your daughters in law that she just has to carry around a dying baby inside her until birth?
    What if she gets very very sick & treatment for her depends on her being pregnant?
    It's not just about 'killing babies' it's about compassion for people in terrible situations, it's about medical treatment for women.


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    #2535
    TerryDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭TerryDublin


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Its all well and good that in this situation the woman does have support. what if she didnt?

    We need to make sure all women have support access.
    do you think she should be forced to continue the pregnancy or take a plane to england at the risk of her health?

    Why are you ask me about health risk when I say in my post that I want woman who need abortion to be able to have one.


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    #2536
    TerryDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭TerryDublin


    bubblypop wrote: »
    What if ( & I hope it never happens) the baby stops growing? What if they find out it has such enormous health problems that it will die before birth or shortly afterwards, screaming in agony.

    Youre not reading my post! I never said this.


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    #2537
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TerryDublin wrote: »

    Why are you ask me about health risk when I say in my post that I want woman who need abortion to be able to have one.

    If a pregnant woman does not want to be pregnant then she needs an abortion.
    There is no other way not to be pregnant.


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    #2538
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,467 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    We need to make sure all women have support access.

    But they dont. that is a fact. wishing and hoping wont change. some women also dont want babies even if they have all the support in the world.
    TerryDublin wrote: »
    Why are you ask me about health risk when I say in my post that I want woman who need abortion to be able to have one.

    travelling to the uk for an abortion is a health risk in itself. If you want women who need abortions to have one then vote yes. though i suspect your definition of "need" is different to mine.


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    #2539
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    I feel the Government have not fully represented my view. I always planned to vote for repeal as I don't want any woman who needs an abortion unable to have one. But I am against abortion otherwise so what do I vote.

    My sons fiance is pregnant and we all watched her first scan on DVD. So excited all of us. How could I vote for laws that would mean she could end their babys life. My grandchilds life. I know its so young so small but its still living you know. If she would want to do such a thing I would want her helped with why she would want to do this. If it was finance or fear of not coping. Help with these.

    All around me my friends work people seem to be caught up in this but only from the view of the woman and her rights reproductive. The baby seems to be lost in all of this. Forgotten. Women have so much help with difficulties they face and I am happy for this but why is stopping the baby to live further seen so insignificant. I hope I am wrong and I can vote for repeal but not abortion as birth control only abnormalities rape etc.

    Presumably she is over 12 weeks, so under the proposed legislation she could only abort if the baby had an FFA or there was a threat to her health or life.

    Before 12 weeks people abort for a multitude of reasons, finances is only one of them.


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    #2540
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    Why are you ask me about health risk when I say in my post that I want woman who need abortion to be able to have one.

    So you should vote to repeal the 8th, and women who need an abortion would not be denied one.

    Some women YOU don't think need an abortion would get one under current proposals. You could write to your TD and tell them not to vote for unrestricted abortion. It might pass anyway, but that's life in a democracy.

    And perhaps you should consider that maybe the women who want an abortion that YOU don't think they need know more about their own pregnancy than you do. My own view is that it is not my business, and that dragging lawyers, judges, TDs and the public at large into it is an outrageous violation of women's privacy - it should be a matter between a woman and her doctor, full stop.


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    #2541
    Bredabe
    Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    We need to make sure all women have support access.



    Why are you ask me about health risk when I say in my post that I want woman who need abortion to be able to have one.

    I agree, women should have access to all the support they need(men too) BUT as it stands, a baby born ten months from today, will NOT have those supports, neither will their family. There is a lot to be done around supports and nothing has been done(indeed its been undone) since the recession. The proper supports should have been put in places decades ago. Don't even get me started on the adoption laws currently.

    As someone with experience in this field, I at times feel some that some youngsters would have been better of terminated than suffer as they do and will continue to due to lack of support and the long-term damage they suffer from the abuse in their environments.

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



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    #2542
    Bredabe
    Registered Users Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So you should vote to repeal the 8th, and women who need an abortion would not be denied one.

    Some women YOU don't think need an abortion would get one under current proposals. You could write to your TD and tell them not to vote for unrestricted abortion. It might pass anyway, but that's life in a democracy.

    And perhaps you should consider that maybe the women who want an abortion that YOU don't think they need know more about their own pregnancy than you do. My own view is that it is not my business, and that dragging lawyers, judges, TDs and the public at large into it is an outrageous violation of women's privacy - it should be a matter between a woman and her doctor, full stop.

    The only women who should have babies they don't want should be prise winning actresses, kids know and suffer. That's too much to ask of a child to satisfy societies discomfort with the alternatives.

    Im pro choice because its not my busiess what ppl do!

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



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    #2543
    TerryDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭TerryDublin


    January wrote: »
    Presumably she is over 12 weeks, so under the proposed legislation she could only abort if the baby had an FFA or there was a threat to her health or life.

    Yes this I feel is okay.
    Before 12 weeks people abort for a multitude of reasons, finances is only one of them.

    If no abnormality ffa risk to life like you said then waht are the reasons which justify ending babys life?


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    #2544
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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    #2545
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Neyite wrote: »
    It's not abortion on demand.

    It's abortion without restriction.

    It's allowing a woman to assess her particular set of circumstances and decide for her, if a termination is necessary. That kind of thing is not decided on a whim.

    It's for the victims of rape.
    It's for the women who, due to their health, can't carry a pregnancy.
    It's for the women facing cancer treatment.
    It's for the women in direct provision who cannot travel for a termination.
    It's for the women here illegally.
    It's for the women too poor to afford travel.
    It's for children who are physically too immature to carry a pregnancy and give birth without severe risks to their health.
    It's for the women who's pregnancy will put them at risk of increased domestic abuse.
    It's for the women who's contraception failed and they are simply too poor to afford another child.
    It's for the women who are miscarrying their wanted baby and have to gamble as to whether the dying heartbeat will die before sepsis happens.
    Its' so that women who needs an X-ray can get one - and not just on certain days of her cycle because she's deemed to be fertile and therefore has some sort of Shrodingers pregnancy going on every month for half the month.
    It's for the women at high risk of having a special needs child and she's already struggling to cope with the one she has and cares for 24/7.
    It's so women can get full medical support in early pregnancy to try to maintain their pregnancy.
    It's for women with fatal foetal abnormalities.
    It's for continuity of maternity care including post abortion health care.

    This is why we need it unrestricted. Because that list is only a small portion of reasons for seeking termination, and we can't amend the constitution to accommodate each and every deserving case. In order to help these women, we need to open it up to all and to trust that the vast vast majority of women will have a bloody good reason to go and seek an abortion.

    I trust women to make that decision if they have to. I've never known a women to make that decision lightly of flippantly. Never.

    Have a read of this ^ realise that life is not black and white and women need abortions. You may not agree with the reasons but they are valid reasons.


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    #2546
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    I feel the Government have not fully represented my view. I always planned to vote for repeal as I don't want any woman who needs an abortion unable to have one. But I am against abortion otherwise so what do I vote.

    If I was in your shoes and I felt that strongly on the matter, I would vote 'No' this time round, unless I got the clarity I needed to address my concerns. I will be voting 'Yes' myself but I would totally understand someone taking that stance. I've read some awful nonsense online about this referendum from the 'Yes' side, that make me, someone who has been a 'Yes' from day one, balk.#
    TerryDublin wrote: »
    If no abnormality ffa risk to life like you said then waht are the reasons which justify ending babys life?

    Before 12 weeks, it can be for any reason. Might be a case that they just don't want the child or that they feel it is too much of financial burden on them.


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    #2547
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Berserker wrote: »
    If I was in your shoes and I felt that strongly on the matter, I would vote 'No' this time round, unless I got the clarity I needed to address my concerns. I will be voting 'Yes' myself but I would totally understand someone taking that stance. I've read some awful nonsense online about this referendum from the 'Yes' side, that make me, someone who has been a 'Yes' from day one, balk.

    Can I ask for examples?

    I'd actually urge the poster not to vote at all if they're unsure of what they're voting on.


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    #2548
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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    #2549
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    TerryDublin wrote: »
    Youre not reading my post! I never said this.
    But these are things that can happen, unfortunately, and which the 8th amendment affects.


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    #2550
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    A real yes voter, please, not the "I'm a yes voter but only for impossible amendments, and this proposed amendment looks possible so I must vote No." kind of yes voters who keep posting here.


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    #2551
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    January wrote: »
    Can I ask for examples?

    I'd actually urge the poster not to vote at all if they're unsure of what they're voting on.
    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Firstly, they make me balk, as a 'Yes' voter. I'm going to be open and admit that I am biased here because I come from a family of doctors. Open prescriptions and scrapping of the three day wait are two. On the waiting period, I think that is is common sense to have the window as it will give women the medical support they need during the abortion. I'm not even going to comment on why open prescriptions are a bad idea for abortion pills. That should be self evident. I'm going to be very clear on how I view it. Abortion should be available, unrestricted but the women should have multiple visits to her doctor, during which she can get he care she requires. This nonsense of only needing one visit because I'm too busy and I should be able to get my open ended prescription, is only going to lead to issues for the patient and she will end up sitting in A&E, adding to that problem. If we are going to do this, let's do this properly and give women the services and support they need to do it.


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