The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

It wasnt me123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

....
The same 'leftists' who are calling for actually affordable housing/local authority housing, security of leases, properly subsidised childcare, after school care, living wage, end of zero hours contracts, properly paid parental leave... all those little things that would help when raising a child.

But they don't care about the little babies or the mothers - they have no compassion they only want control. They are not interested in the babies once they are born, just want to make women give birth to them.

Repeal all the way and I'm predicting a 70/30 split in favour. I hope commonsense will out in the end.

PhoenixParker

Pedro K wrote: »

It would appear that Dr. Eimear Thornton of this campaign is not actually a medical doctor. I couldn't find her name on the medical register. A cursory Google search of her name seems to throw up that she's a biotechnology graduate, currently working as an administrator in NUIG. So she may have a PhD, but not a medical degree.

It seems to me that it's very difficult to find medical professionals, especially those working directly in Maternity care, who are against repealing the 8th.

They may well be pro life but they're almost never pro the 8th amendment.

seamus

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It seems to me that it's very difficult to find medical professionals, especially those working directly in Maternity care, who are against repealing the 8th.

They may well be pro life but they're almost never pro the 8th amendment.

There are basically none. All of those who've been trotted out by the pro-life movement are either professionals with no expertise in the area (Breda O'Brien), or white-haired catholic men who haven't been licenced to practice medicine for an unknown amount of time.

I'm sure if you look really hard, you can find the odd GP here and there, or a fertility specialist with strong opinions. But as far as I can tell there isn't a single qualified, practicing Ob/Gyn doctor who opposes repeal.

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And if anyone doubts this just look at the number of pro-birth posters who have complained about pro-choice being 'leftist'...

In fairness, I think this is partly because a lot of those posters are Americans, and think words like "leftist", "liberal" and "social justice" are insults.

They don't realize that wading into the debate and insulting everyone to the left of Ronnie Reagan (i.e. 99% of Irish people) does their cause no favours.

BabysCoffee

Anyone in this discussion planning on canvassing, fundraising or getting involved with the campaign generally?

I am busy this weekend but hopefully I will join up with a local canvas next weekend.

Zubeneschamali

seamus wrote: »

All of those who've been trotted out by the pro-life movement are either professionals with no expertise in the area (Breda O'Brien), or white-haired catholic men who haven't been licenced to practice medicine for an unknown amount of time.

They had Dr. Monaghan, an obstetrician practicing in Ballinasloe for 30 years, on the radio from the launch, saying the 8th had never impeded his practice.

Here he is in 2015 giving out about the PLDPA which was forced on the Government by the 8th amendment itself:

"As a professional, I am not prepared to accept that I would be directed to perform abortions by my employer or the State. If I receive a direction to do one, I will not do it and will face the consequences. I think the bulk of Ireland's obstetricians would feel the same way.
"I will not practise obstetrics if I am compelled to kill babies."

amdublin

Pedro K wrote: »

It would appear that Dr. Eimear Thornton of this campaign is not actually a medical doctor. I couldn't find her name on the medical register. A cursory Google search of her name seems to throw up that she's a biotechnology graduate, currently working as an administrator in NUIG. So she may have a PhD, but not a medical degree.

I thought her comments were mean and snarky. There's a lot of women out there with children who have as much a say about the 8th as her with hers.

Anyhoo, on the repeal side, we raise you Dr O'Mahony with HER four children. A medical doctor to boot. And as it happens not only working in the field of maternity medicine but actually the master of our national hospital.

kylith

Mongfinder General wrote: »

But some women may not want to be pregnant but may not want to take what they consider to be a life. Easier access up to 12 weeks puts pressure on make a decision. And when you’re a single mother with no money that’s an invidious position to find one’s self in.

And you don’t think that the pressure to save the money and book the clinic and the hotel and the clinic puts pressure in the woman to rush into a decision, and that having done all that she then may feel pressured into going ahead with it even if she’s unsure? Whereas having a few weeks to think it over and the procedure being less expensive and available from a local gp would actually give her more time to consider her options and decide what is right for her?

PhoenixParker

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They had Dr. Monaghan, an obstetrician practicing in Ballinasloe for 30 years, on the radio from the launch, saying the 8th had never impeded his practice.

Here he is in 2015 giving out about the PLDPA which was forced on the Government by the 8th amendment itself:

"As a professional, I am not prepared to accept that I would be directed to perform abortions by my employer or the State. If I receive a direction to do one, I will not do it and will face the consequences. I think the bulk of Ireland's obstetricians would feel the same way.
"I will not practise obstetrics if I am compelled to kill babies."

It seems to be him over and over, from what I can see by googling he graduated trinity in 1976 which puts him very close to retirement after working a long spell in a hospital where any difficult case will be referred outward to a bigger better equipped hospital.

If he's not already retired that is, he doesn't seem to be on the medical council register.

applehunter

seamus wrote: »

There are basically none. All of those who've been trotted out by the pro-life movement are either professionals with no expertise in the area (Breda O'Brien), or white-haired catholic men who haven't been licenced to practice medicine for an unknown amount of time.

I'm sure if you look really hard, you can find the odd GP here and there, or a fertility specialist with strong opinions. But as far as I can tell there isn't a single qualified, practicing Ob/Gyn doctor who opposes repeal.

I have 5 doctors in my family all voting against repeal.

amdublin

applehunter wrote: »

I have 5 doctors in my family all voting against repeal.

Medical doctors?

Practicing in what area?

Edit.
Care to share what are their reasons For votint against repeal?

swampgas

applehunter wrote: »

I have 5 doctors in my family all voting against repeal.

Doctors of divinity perhaps?

amdublin

Doctors for Choice is a good factual Twitter account to follow in my opinion

BabysCoffee

kylith wrote: »

And you don’t think that the pressure to save the money and book the clinic and the hotel and the clinic puts pressure in the woman to rush into a decision, and that having done all that she then may feel pressured into going ahead with it even if she’s unsure? Whereas having a few weeks to think it over and the procedure being less expensive and available from a local gp would actually give her more time to consider her options and decide what is right for her?

Yes it is a lot of money to throw down the drain i.e. lose the money paid for flights and hotel. It certainly could be a deciding factor in someone going ahead with an abortion that they have doubts about.

Much better that they can schedule the procedure in their home country and take the time to think about it without the extra pressure of external forces like losing money (or the knowing that you can't even postpone) causing them to rush in to things

applehunter

amdublin wrote: »

Medical doctors?

Practicing in what area?

Edit.
Care to share what are their reasons For votint against repeal?

2 GPs, 1 Public Health Doctor, Radiologist, Anaesthetist.

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

2 GPs, 1 Public Health Doctor, Radiologist, Anaesthetist.

What reasons do they have for not repealing the 8th amendment?

amdublin

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Yes it is a lot of money to throw down the drain i.e. lose the money paid for flights and hotel. It certainly could be a deciding factor in someone going ahead with an abortion that they have doubts about.

Much better that they can schedule the procedure in their home country and take the time to think about it without the extra pressure of external forces like losing money (or the knowing that you can't even postpone) causing them to rush in to things

I firmly believe there will be less abortions for this reason if it was possible to access abortion in Ireland rather than England.

I think once you have booked those flights things are set in motion, and it's very hard to stop it.

I would much prefer our women not being under that pressure and allowing them the space and time to use to make sure they really want to go through or not go through with the pregnancy.

Without the flight being booked, the thought of losing the money etc... in some cases a woman may decide she doesn't want to terminate.

I support each woman in choosing what is best for themselves.

Stupify

Just want to ask people here, what would be your feeling about also allowing men to abort their child? Not in a physical sense, more of in a legal sense.

Would people here agree men should be allowed disassociate themselves from any child they have conceived if women are allowed to do the same, for fairness and all that.

PhoenixParker

Stupify wrote: »

Just want to ask people here, what would be your feeling about also allowing men to abort their child? Not in a physical sense, more of in a legal sense.

Would people here agree men should be allowed disassociate themselves from any child they have conceived if women are allowed to do the same, for fairness and all that.

I think what aboutism doesn’t belong in this thread.

Stupify

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I think what aboutism doesn’t belong in this thread.

I think it adds to the discussion. Anyway, just curious to hear peoples opinions on it as I am of the view if woman are allowed abort then men should also be allowed.

applehunter

bubblypop wrote: »

What reasons do they have for not repealing the 8th amendment?

They are not in favour of abortion.

I received a letter from my aunt recently and she ended it with a quotation by Martin Niemoller Germany WW2.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Stupify

Stupify wrote: »

Just want to ask people here, what would be your feeling about also allowing men to abort their child? Not in a physical sense, more of in a legal sense.

Would people here agree men should be allowed disassociate themselves from any child they have conceived if women are allowed to do the same, for fairness and all that.

This was discussed in the previous thread. At length.
Men can & do walk away. There's nothing stopping them

applehunter

applehunter wrote: »

They are not in favour of abortion.

I received a letter from my aunt recently and she ended it with a quotation by Martin Niemoller Germany WW2.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Which doesn't in anyway answer the question I asked, which was 'what are their reasons for not repealing the 8th amendment'

Stupify

bubblypop wrote: »

This was discussed in the previous thread. At length.
Men can & do walk away. There's nothing stopping them

But they then have to pay child support right? Thats not the same as the choice women have.

swampgas

applehunter wrote: »

They are not in favour of abortion.

I received a letter from my aunt recently and she ended it with a quotation by Martin Niemoller Germany WW2.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

I'm afraid that isn't making any sense at all.

PhoenixParker

applehunter wrote: »

They are not in favour of abortion.

I received a letter from my aunt recently and she ended it with a quotation by Martin Niemoller Germany WW2.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

They’ve already come for us as women, we’re trying to speak out.

amdublin

applehunter wrote: »

They are not in favour of abortion.

I received a letter from my aunt recently and she ended it with a quotation by Martin Niemoller Germany WW2.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

One of my favourite quotes

I am speaking for women to allow them choose.

I cannot force a woman to go through a pregnancy and have a baby if that is not their free will. I simply can't.

I support each woman in their own choice. If you want to go through with the pregnancy that is wonderful. If you want to terminate the pregnancy, I don't want you having to travel to another country to do it.

Stupify

Stupify wrote: »

But they then have to pay child support right? Thats not the same as the choice women have.

No, there's plenty of fathers that don't pay a penny.

Stupify

bubblypop wrote: »

No, there's plenty of fathers that don't pay a penny.

Legally they have to pay, am I wrong? They can be brought to court and even jailed if they don't.

I'm saying shouldn't men have the law on their side so they can "abort" a child they don't want, so then they cannot be sought after for child support.

neonsofa

bubblypop wrote: »

This was discussed in the previous thread. At length.
Men can & do walk away. There's nothing stopping them

In fairness (and I'm saying this as a single parent receiving no support from the other parent, financial or otherwise) many fathers are pursued for maintenance even if they have/want no involvement in the child's life. So if the woman wants to raise the baby and the man doesn't, he can walk away but once the baby is born he is liable to contribute financially.

Having said that I just don't see how it can be legally regulated- these type of "legal abortions"- in theory I think I agree with them but in practice, a baby is born and that changes everything whereas a termination doesn't result in another human with rights and needs.

But it's another case of biology just being the way it is and sometimes it's fair and sometimes it's not.